1913 Metz 22

[Guest Mochet]

Thanks. I could get a new one made, but an original would be nice!

This may also explain why the chain covers were missing.

Phil

[Luv2Wrench]

Thanks. I could get a new one made, but an original would be nice!

This may also explain why the chain covers were missing.

Phil

Do the new chain covers that Jason made fit? I looked at some pictures he sent and they seem to be roughly the same as mine.

[Guest Mochet]

Good question. I assumed they would, but hadn't realized my sprocket wheels were altered. The sprockets are at the brake shop now, but I'll check the covers today. If you don't have any extra sprockets, perhaps I could get some specs.

Phil

[Luv2Wrench]

I have 5 sprockets. I need 2 for myself, I've traded 2 away and I have 1 left over. There is a possibility that I have one more. I will look today.

[Guest Mochet]

Thanks; any help is a help! One sprocket, or even a loaner which I could return, would be of use. As I say, My Metz has the original sprocket wheels; they just cut off the teeth. If I can't find some originals in decent shape, I'll order new ones using the original specs. The chain on my Metz is #60. That is, 3/4" OC between rollers. Fortunately, this is a standard size available today.

Phil

[Guest Mochet]

Bill... Could you tell me the OD of your sprocket wheel? That is, the widest dimension. Here is a 36-tooth, #60 stock steel sprockets for example. One might be adapted to fit the Metz. The OD's are a bit over 9 inch. I'm thinking the Metz sprocket wheels are not flat, however. Mine aren't here, but I think they are uniquely cast to fit the hub.

Phil

Edited February 13, 2012 by Mochet (see edit history)

[Guest Mochet]

My plan now is to braze 37-tooth sprockets onto my original wheels. The stock sprockets from applied.com are pretty reasonable (about $40 each). This is not bad considering Rush Gear quoted me $1800. Stay tuned to see if this works.

Applied is a good resource, by the way. They sell more "drive" parts than McMaster, and they ship from locations all over.

Phil

[Luv2Wrench]

Sounds like a good plan, however, why don't you PM me your address and I'll ship up my spare.

[Guest Mochet]

Message sent.

Phil

[Guest Mochet]

By the way, here's how I treated the new sprocket-to-hub bolts. I filed the tops, blasted off the cadmium and used Eastwood's Metal Blackener Solution followed by their satin clear spray. You can't see the threads, so I left them alone.

Phil

[Luv2Wrench]

Looks great. I think I'll be giving that a try as well. BTW, did you try the approach of heating the bolt with a torch and then dropping in linseed oil? Has anyone else tried this? It seems pretty easy...

[Guest Mochet]

No, I haven't tried the burning linseed oil trick. I think this is simpler. However, it sounds fun!

Phil

[Guest Mochet]

I got the new muffler cut-out pedal from the foundry yesterday. Actually, I got six copies cast in iron from my wood pattern which I based on photos and measurements given me by Metz owners. Here are a pair with the rough casting surface smoothed down. You can see one mounting flange has not yet been drilled. I plan to rivet the hinged joints, and then paint them. I've yet to discover how this control links to the muffler, and how the lever terminates. I left it plain so it could be adapted to various cars, and not just the Metz.

Phil

[Luv2Wrench]

Looks great, thanks a TON for getting these made!!

[Guest Mochet]

Thanks to Metz owner Jeff, I got a pair of original Metz 37-tooth sprocket wheels/brake drums. The ones on my car, as per my previous posts, were altered to 57 teeth. Here is a photo to compare the two sizes:

The castings are not identical, but the foundry marks are. The numbers cast into the wheels are different: Those that came with my car read "3-360"; the unaltered pair read "4-360".

Phil

[Guest Mochet]

The rear wheel sprockets attach to the extended rear wheel hubs with 5, 3/4"-long X 3/8" fine-thread bolts. The heads on these bolts are slightly smaller than normal because they are close to the hub. Below, you see some photos of the hub attachment. The nuts hold on the bearing cover. I use Timken 13685 tapered roller bearings on the inner rear-wheels.

The sprocket wheel (which doubles as the brake drum) attached to the rear wheel. Both rear wheels have chains on the Metz 22; the next model, the Metz 25, had only one.

A close-up shows the bearing cover, which is held down by the lock washers.

Phil

[Guest Mochet]

Metz had a rather elaborate set of covers for the motor, roller chains and friction wheels. My project now is making the "transmission cover", as Metz called it. This covers the two friction drive wheels, protecting them from road debris and water, and is held in place by coil springs. Thanks to two Metz friends, I obtained the dimensions from original covers from the '22' and a '25' models. The first thing I discovered was that the '25' was quite a bit larger. Turns out the aluminum drive wheel is 20" diameter in that model while my '22' wheel is 17". I made a cardboard model of the cover to test the fit, as you see in the photos. Next step is to make one of 20g steel. Originally, they were seamed like ductwork, perhaps using a pittsburgh lock seam. I may try that, or just MIG weld them together.

Phil

[Guest Mochet]

After three tries, the brake shoes finally seem to fit, and the brakes firmly stop the rear wheels. My first set (3/16"), which I riveted on the shoes, didn't fit inside the drums. I got the next (5/32") set glued in at a brake shop, sending them my drums. Meanwhile, I luckily found an original set of Metz brake drums (which have sprocket teeth on them) from a helpful Metz friend. These drums, it turned out, were slightly larger O.D., and now the brakes were too small! I sent the shoes to yet another shop (Auto Friction in Oregon) who bonded on another 3/16" lining. It fit! I like Auto Friction. They were lower in price than the first shop, and they even painted the iron shoes which the first shop did not do. After some fussing, the brakes and rear wheels are now in place. Next I'll fit the new roller chains.

Phil

[Jerry Alexander]

We just purchased a 1915 Model 22 and this is the 1st time I have ever heard of a Metz automobile. It appears this car has been restored although it is black with yellow wheels, not the colors described prior in these messages.

Where can I get written information (technical but in layman terms) about these cars? How do I access the Library as I have been told there is some information there. Yes I am new and a complete novice, but I intend to learn how to get this car running and thus enjoy the Metz! Any and all assistance will be appreciated. BTW, the former owner left gas in the complete system so I have to clear out all the gunk. Also, when I do lace new gas in it, should I also be adding lead o the gas, too?

[Guest Mochet]

You'll have a lot of questions in your restoration. I think you'll find the AACA Forum useful. Also, the MTFCA Forum is real good (just try to pose your questions to apply to the Model T). Each forum can be searched. Check this one under "Metz" and you'll find more stuff. Also, get the March/April 1967 "Antique Automobile" magazine for the best article written on Metz. Here is one on eBay. For your questions:

1) Lead is not necessary for your gas. Lead was not an additive in 1915.

2) Clean the tank and carburetor out well. Install a fuel filter, also.

3) Read every book you can find on old car restoration. I suggest Harold Sharon's book "Understanding Your Brass Car" ($24.95 + $5.15 postage) from:

Jo Sharon

93 Curtis Rd.,

Glastonbury, CT, 06033

If not already a member, Join the AACA and HCCA. They have local chapters where you can learn a lot.

Phil

[Jerry Alexander]

WOW!!! THANKS! I will obviously have additional questions but I will try to reframe from being a pest. And I will follow your advice. I have contacted the AACA Lbrary and ordered a request. Actually the letter and check are setting in the mail box right now waiting on tomorrow's visit by the mailman.

[Guest Mochet]

Almost ready now for re-installing the Metz engine. I painted it black, though I'm thinking, from my research, that it may have been gray originally. I decided not to paint over what I've already done. Black looks nice, I think! Of course, I forgot how it came out 2 years ago, so I'm re-learning the process. Here you see the engine ready to be lifted. I must install the flywheel (which doubles as a cooling fan) first, so I'm painting that this week.

Phil

[Luv2Wrench]

Exciting to see it there ready to go in. Is everything else complete and just needs to be assembled?

[Guest Mochet]

I hope, but I always find things I neglected to do. The final test is will it work? I certainly hope so!

Phil

[Jerry Alexander]

I have been told that you have done extensive researh into the correct colors for teh Metz. I have a 1915 Fore Door Model 22. I read that originally it was dark blue, the wheels cream and the engine grey. Do you know which dark blue, what shade of cream and grey?

Additionally I got some information from the Library and see that originally the lights were powered by Prest-O-Lite gas. Anything you can tell me about that? I see there is supposed to be a canister on the driver's side running board that I presume holds this gas. I am guessing those are hard to find. Right?

And it appears that the running boards had a thin piece of metal along the outside edge that connected to the fenders. Am I on the right track?

I thank you in advance for your help in this matter.

Most sincerely,

Jerry Alexander

[Guest Mochet]

Jerry... I chose "dark blue", a modern Ford fleet color (W8161H), for the body. No chips or formulas exist of the original color, so use your own taste. Harrah chose Ditzler DQE-11601, which I think is a lighter hue. Ditzler is now PPG. For the wheels, I used a BMW MINI color: "Pepper White." Harrah used the GMC color "Panama Cream", which I think is a '50s color GM used. Harrah's 1913 Metz is still on display at The National Automobile Museum in Reno.

As to what color gray Metz used on their engines, I don't know. Check the Bill Hirsch engine paint colors and choose the tint you like.

Metz used acetylene generators for the gas lights, but Prestolite tanks were popular, and they may have used them, too. They're not impossible to find. Search eBay and the flea markets.

The running boards connected to the fenders directly. There was no strip of metal except the trim around the linoleum mat. Another triangular metal piece went from the running boards to the body. Perhaps that is what you refer to.

Phil

[Jerry Alexander]

Thank you for the color help. I posted another question that maybe you can also answer. Do you have to remove the brackets and headlights to be able to remove the radiator? I am stalled in taking the radiator off since this appears to be the only solution.

The radiator is full of junk and I am guessing there is a significant depsoit of stuff in the engine, too. I will flush that out using a hose.

But right now I am looking for an answer to removing the radiator without having to remove the headlights and their bracket.

[Guest Mochet]

It's been a few years since I took mine off, so I can't answer your question. The bolts are on the bottom. If the radiator doesn't lift straight up; you'll end up removing the headlamp brackets so you can tilt it forward. My engine and radiator were also filled with rust. I suggest you take it to a radiator shop to be boiled out and fully cleaned, then pressure-tested for leaks. It's not expensive. Tell them it's a 1913 non-pressurized system. You may want to take the engine to a shop to get it cleaned up, too. It's tough to clean out all the water passages with a hose. If you do it yourself, use a mixture of water and Washing Soda. This is good for flushing out rust. Your radiator should fully drain in about 5 seconds. One thing lead$ to another...

Phil

[Jerry Alexander]

Thanks. Mine would have lifted straight up but there is a couple of small wings that get caught on the frame. So I will have to remove the headlights afterall I guess. Oh well no one said this would be easy.

And thanks for the info about cheaning out the engine, too. I have planned on taking the radiator to a local shop. I will make them aware that this radiator comes from a 1915 vehicle.

This car is generating a lot of interest. That is part of the fun of owning such a vehicle, as I am sure you are already aware of.

Again, I sincerely thank you for your advice and assistance.

Jerry

[Guest Mochet]

The magneto is now installed, and I'm trying to time it correctly. It's a bit difficult to test the spark while hand cranking!

A Note About Spark Plugs

The Metz "22" and "25" models used 1/2" pipe thread, long-reach spark plugs, the most common of which was the Champion 32. I say "common", but they're not so easy to find today. I'd guess Champion stopped making them in the '60s. They were used in stationary engines as well. The extra length allowed for a thicker cylinder head with more cooling capacity. Here are a few Champion 32 plugs I've found:

The shorter "long-reach" plugs like the Champion 34 and "X" plugs (used on the Ford T) will also run the Metz engine, but not as efficiently because the spark is farther from the piston. Splitdorf and Edison also made extra-long plugs, but finding a matching set is a challenge.

[Jerry Alexander]

You may aleready be aware of this but this is what I did to see if I had spark. I darkened the garage and laid the plugs on the engine block. I had my wife watch for the sparks as I cranked the car. She reported they all fired. Maybe that technique will work for you, too. Crude but effective.

[Guest Mochet]

Still working on the transmission (friction wheel) cover. I made the cover from steel and welded the seams. I them ground the welds flush and used panel sealer to fill the small gaps on the interior. It's now in primer. Last week, I made some copper clips and riveted them in place for the coil springs that hold the cover on place. See photo below.

I decided to keep my "original" upholstery on the seat. It's nicely done and quite old, but probably not original, as Metz didn't show any diamond tufting in their literature. Anyway, the leatherette was worn, faded and dull (see previous photos), so I thought to use shoe "scuff cover" to freshen it up. However, another collector suggested "Surflex", a product made in PA to restore leather & vinyl. It's pricey ($50/pint), but it did a nice job. I could have done a touring car with the pint I bought. It goes on like runny latex paint, and dries to a nice semi-gloss sheen. I'll now replace one missing button and sew a new welt trim for the seat. The seat had "Hidem", which is wrong for the brass era.

Phil

[Jerry Alexander]

Got the radiator back from the shop yesterday (May 29th). I took it to Bill's Antique Radiator Repair in Chillicothe, IL. His son, Dan, is the one working on the radiaors. I was very pleased with what I saw and would encourage anyone needing this type of work done to consider contacting this business. All the holes were sealed, the radiator was cleaned out repainted and brass polished. It cost $200 for this. Thus I believe this business is quite reasonable. The business can be found on line.

Now I am back to struggling re-attaching the radiator. It came off difficult and is going back on difficult. But percervence will prevail. I am targeting this weekend on being able to fire the car up, adjust the carb for proper gas flow. Oh one other thing we are attaching a sediment bowl ahead of the carb to help minimize debris from getting into the carb. Hope this helps. I'll let you know.

Good luck with your improvements to your Metz!

[MochetVelo]

Now that the body is mounted, I wanted to connect the pedals and steering, but first I had to install the gray linoleum flooring. After thinking a while, I decided to cover the edges with 5/8" half-oval brass molding. I bought some 6-foot pieces from a boat supply house where it's used as a decorative and protective edging. With careful measuring, I cut the sections necessary, drilled and countersunk screw holes and buffed the brass to a polish. It cuts and bends quite easily. Note how the side pieces are curved. I found I did not have to anneal the brass to bend it. At first, I made a fancy form to do the job, but ended up using the miter slot in my bandsaw table.The brass fit it nicely. I bent a little and tested the fit. Unfortunately, my bandsaw is up a flight of stairs, so I got a lot of exercise! The middle section of molding where the floor angles upward made me think a bit. I ended up just angling the flat molding to cover the bend. I used #4 X 3/4" oval head screws. The photo lighting makes it look two-tone, but it's regular "battleship gray" linoleum I got from Restoration Supply. This will also be used on the running boards.

As for the linoleum itself, I glued it down with a hot glue gun. It worked pretty well, and it should hold. Next, the pedal escutcheons, steering column, etc.

Phil

[Luv2Wrench]

Looks great. Can you post some pics of the whole car? I don't think we've seen it since it was painted.

What is the re-melt temp of the the glue? I saw from the other post you used a special system. The last time I used hot melt it worked great until the next afternoon.

[MochetVelo]

More photos to come. I pretty much finished the headlamp restoration today. The lamps I got with the car fit OK and looked correct, but they were all brass. Metz used black lamps with nickel rims. I went to smooth the pitting in my "brass" lamps only to discover they were actually brass plated over pitted steel. This gave me a good excuse to return to the original black paint, so I blasted the housings and fixed the various dents, then painted them with black Dupont Centari enamel. The rims were more difficult. I planned to nickel plate them myself with a Caswell kit, but thought better of it. Filing the rust pits was too difficult for me. I finally sent them to a plater I've had success with in the past: Courtesy Metal Polishing in Illinois. They did a nice job nickel plating the rims, which were in poor condition (included a rusted-through hole). I was ready to pay more than their quote, but they stuck to it, and I'm pleased. The glass reflectors were not great, either. One was busted into four pieces. Also, I could not find replacements. Finally, I ordered new reflectors from brassauto.com. It took several weeks, as they had to be custom-silvered, but they look good. Only problem is they were about 1/8" thick while the originals were about 1/2". I ended up gluing the new reflectors right atop the originals, as the width made them a good fit (don't tell!). I left the lamp interiors as-is, since you can't see them well anyway. For lenses, I got the local glass shop to make two 8" rounds, which is what Metz used. I made the thumb screws on my lathe and had them plated, also. Here are some pictures.

Phil

[Luv2Wrench]

Nice job Phil!

Were all Metz headlamps the same? I've seen some that appeared to be more black and brass... the chimney top and ring were brass and the rest painted black. The pair that came with my Roadster have brass chimney tops and the rest is steel. The pair I got from the ForeDoor have brass chimney and rings.

About how much did you pay for the reflectors? I think mine just need to be re-silvered but I might just get new ones.

[Guest Mochet]

Metz used whatever they could get at a reasonable price, so parts varied. The "22" literature mentions nickel plating on the headlamp rim, and the catalog illustrations show a black lamp body. However, I doubt anyone could say they never used brass. Go to the site I mentioned above and you'll see the reflectors listed. However, if your reflectors have good glass, then I recommend you get them resilvered.

Phil

[Guest Mochet]

My friend and I gave the nearly-reassembled Metz its first crank in years today. We ran gas from a can to the carburetor, and we smell it coming out the exhaust. Plugs seem to be sparking. After numerous cranks, the engine caught and ran nicely for about ten seconds. This encouraged us that the timing is OK (there is no spark advance on the Bosch DU4 mag used in this car). After another 50-60 cranks, however, no luck. We'll try again after our backs recover. All tips appreciated!

My book, "Understanding Your Brass Car" by Harold Sharon says "Unless you need the exercise, don't keep cranking if the car won't start, or at least attempt to start, after eight or ten pulls of the crank." I don't think I could crank it more than that now anyway! Here's what I plan to try:

1) Decrease plug gap from .025 to .015. I read the smaller gap is helpful for mag-only spark.

2) Try starting fluid and/or add a little gas to each cylinder to see if engine fires. If it does, it may not be getting enough fuel. Also, if cylinders get fuel and no spark, plugs will be wet.

3) Install gas tank & fuel line rather than the tin can set-up.

4) Various guys suggest different fuel/idle mixture settings to start car. Ford suggested 2.5 turns. I'll experiment with that.

Phil

Edited September 17, 2012 by Mochet (see edit history)

[Jerry Alexander]

When we first started our car, 1915 Model 22, we sprayed some carburetor cleaner into the carb then cranked. The engine caught and she fired up. We had to mess around with the setting screw to get the mix correct. That was touchy. It took 2 of us to get " Ethyl " running. Of course Ether will work too but carb cleaner works fine.

Related I had to purchase a rebuilt carb for this car recently. It has a Kingston L4 on it. I needed one part and that part is presently temporatily out of stock. I got the replacement thru Snyder's for $140.00 plus shipping. Note I had the old one apart several times before I was convinced new parts were the answer to smoother running.

Good luck.

Jerry