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motor-generator 6 cil. 1924


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Hallo everybody,

Just new to the Forum, that I found by typing ''Delco motor generator''.

My 24-47 has become very difficult to start, even with a new battery, so I expect the starter needing a bit of service.

It looks like the ones in the thread about 1922 m-g; Mark pics (Oct.30) and the pic down rigth from TBlack; is that the 251 type?

Can anyone tell me how to take the starter-generator from the engine? From Mark's pic I suppose 3 mounting bolts or studs on the underside. But I have not the faintest idea whether I can just lift the s-g out after undoing them. Do I have to undo any other connections (apart from the electric ones) and do I have to take precautions for the ignition timing?

Is the driving axle from the water pump a sliding fix or other?

Sorry if am not totally clear in my questioning, as I do not have the car nearby to get a good look at it. But with the right-hand steering box just in front of it, it is very difficult to get a good look or picture. With your answer I might be able to take adequate action.

Cheers, Lex

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Just mark the shaft and do not rotate the engine after removal. Remove electrical connections, drive shaft coupling, and the three bottom mouunting bolts to remove the starter-generator. The photo below should also help identify the internal components.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Merry Christmas

Thanks, Member, my housing is OK.

And thanks Mark. I've looked at the m-g, and wonder if the connecting pin is just a press fit or screwed in? I don't want to break anything.

And is the foot-starter mechanism totally independent from the m-g (I don't have to disconnect anything)?

Cheers, Lex

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Hi Lex

Firstly, sorry to ask the basics, but I assume that battery cables are all OK? - especially ground which needs to be exceptionally good to get a starter to work properly.

Certainly a good idea to get to know the condition of your s-g anyway. There should be plenty of old posts on-line from many who have needed to do this. I was new to the story a year ago also, and since that time I have had mine out many times. Here is what I can offer from memorising this task (whilst away from my manual):

1. You need to wedge your starter pedal in so that it remains fully engaged from the cabin. I use a block of wood the right length.

2. Support the base of the drive shaft in the vicinity of the coupling pin in front of the s-g (just enough to stop the spring = i use a jack, but only adjust by hand!) and then you will need to drive the pin out with a hammer and drift. Make sure you are hitting it out the right way, not further in! (as they are tapered). One way out - one way back in and you need to match the coupling and shaft holes - (in and out through the larger holes). It isn't a bad thing to mark the coupling and shaft as they come out. These can take a fair smack to move. In my case, the waterpump had siezed when I bought the car and previous owners had tried to start it with the s-g and preceeded to twist my tapered pin in the hole. The only way to move it was drill it out and re drill a new one. Hope yours is OK.

3. Once pin is out. Remove the 2 hex screws from the bearing cover plate on the front of the s-g where the shaft enters. Once the tapered pin is out (point 2), you can then slide the outer coupling forward along the shaft away from the s-g (the coupling is the outer component and the shaft is the inner). These can sometimes be tricky to free up.

4. Undo the 3 bolts holding in the s-g and the wiring etc and out it comes.

Make sure you change the clutch bearing on the front of the s-g (behind the distributor at the same time you redo the s-g) as these always fail (usually from over greasing).

Good luck

Ben

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Thanks, Ben.

8 Years ago I changed some brushes, in situ, and since then everything was ok.

But last times starting went worse and worse, so put a new battery in, which did not make a big change. Yes, the connections are all OK, I all undid and cleaned them and put them on again. This was before the frost came in.

The collector of the starter looks quite coarse, so I want to clean it up and cut new recessions in the insulating.

I suppose my waterpump is locked up at the moment, because of the frost. I let the water out, but a tiny bit left in the pump can block it, so I don't put force on the handle. In due time temperature will rise and clear the way again. In the mean time I want to get the m-g overhauled.

I will work like you suggested.

Cheers, Lex

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  • 1 month later...

Good luck with that Lex. I have just had to take mine out this weekend also, as I have had continued issues with the generator side of things.

My starter used to also be a poor performer (sounds like yours) and I found that the communtator had worn down to the mica. I followed the manual and re-cut these very carefully. The result is a very good starter - even with new rings the motor turns over very quickly ans starts every time.

Anyway - feel free to touch base if you get stuck working on yours. I have had mine in and out about 3 times in the past 12 months.

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Thanks Ben, you got me at the Buick again.

I made a a tool to screw the pin out, like a bearing puller. Helas, the connection is stronger and bent the tool, but I made a stronger one an will try again next week.

Fact is, both the ingoing axle and the pin are quite rusty and the right hand steering is not facilitating the handling either.

Never mind, I don't need the car at the moment, so will take the time for an easy dismantling. Using a jack and hammer is always an alternative.

Cheers, Lex

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  • 2 months later...

Yesterday the Buick came home.

Every time the engine wants to ignite, the starter has just not enough power to get it through the extra compression.

I managed to start him, by first trying to rev it up without ignition, then switching ign on, which eventually worked, on full advance.

Due to a poor petrol flow eventually he had to be towed home, after a mile under own power.

Now I drilled the pin out, as suggested by you, Ben.

Is the bush with the double collar (where the pin is in the middle) a separate part, or is it one with the 'outer coupling' part you mention, behind the cover withe the 2 hexhead screws?

I cannot get either of them moved on the axle.

To be continued, I suppose...

Cheers, Lex

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I think you did a misstake when drilled the hole becuse there will be some iron left in the drilled axle hole.Now you have to clean and grind with a fine paper on the axel to right of the outer couple and try to move the outer couple to the right.If you cant do that I think you have to drill a few 1/10mm more.I have removed the pin a lot of time and never had any problems.I have always used a dorn and a hammer.

Leif in Sweden.

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A bit late now (sorry) but perhaps this will help someone else.

I've seen where the water pump packing nuts were turned down so tight they caused so much friction the starter could not turn or turned slowly. In this case, the person turned down the nuts while the engine was running with lots of torque compared to the starter motor torque. The good news is he stopped the leak. The only way I found this is when I asked 'what were you working on when the starter problems developed?' 'A bad shaft leak, but I fixed it, just needed a larger wrench was all'. Using his hand crank, the engine felt as is it were frozen, which is was. The correct packing material solved his problem. Not sure if he was able to return what was the largest cresent wrench I have ever seen.

I've also seen where modern 12V battery cables were used instead of the (nearly twice) larger diameter 6V cables which are no longer easily available. Chap 'rebuilt' the engine and thought it was just 'tight', which begs the question of did he turn things over by hand as he tightened down caps and installed pistons? Turns out his engine re-built was not the issue (at least not yet) but rather the 'new' 12V cables he installed at the same time. They were so bright and colorful, I couldn't miss them. He ended up using some large diameter cables used on diesel trucks with multiple batteries.

We're fortunate, we can get out the hand crank and turn things over to see if we have a high friction issue.

Now, while I'm thinking of it, back in the day there was an aftermarket little air compressor kit that you could buy and install on jack-shaft engines like our Buicks. Had a two piece (halves) gear that bolted to the shaft and an air pump and matching gear that mounted to the engine and a little lever to engage the two gear (when engine not running) and a hose. Start the engine and you had air pressure. Wish I had one. Fellow on a Tour had one and was quite a hit.

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Good morning (8 pm here), Leif and Brian,

Thanks for your prompt answers.

Leif,

the conpin came out as a whole, as I only drilled out the centre, to take the stress away (caused by rust and from the tight fitting of the hammered in pin); then drove the pin out, so the holes are clean.

As I cannot even turn the coupling sligthly on the axle, it will be rusted solid.

I need to know were I can put some force. I suppose that the bush with the two collars (in the middle of which you can see the pin hole) is one piece with the coupling.

Your coupling seems to be of an other model, as mine is a bit lumpier (packing nuts on the waterpump are 57mm, coupling seems another model).

Brian,

The water pump is not tight, I can easily crank the engine by hand. The cables are finger thick, and the armatures of both starter and generator are even with the insulation (mica), so they will be the cause of the bad starting (and if not, they need working on as well).

I attach a foto to show the actual situation. Fortunately I have the tyre compressor (but miss the split gear), but it doesnot give me a clear view of the mounting of the axle on the front.

Can anyone tell me, wether the axle is one piece from engine gear to the s-g coupling, or can it be split somewhere? In the latter case, it might be easier for me to take out the axle plus pump(s) (like in Leif's foto) and try to undo the s-g coupling on the bench.

Cheers, Lex

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Hi Lex.The only way to remove the starter-generator is to move the outer coupling to the right.After that you can remove the starter.Made a strong U shape tool to put over and under the coupling and use a hammer ,but be sure the axle is cleaned,mark the axle and coupling to be sure it will be in the same possition when put it back again.The axle goes from the couple(as you can see on my picture) to the cam gear thru the vater pump.Looks almost the same on 4cyl or 6 cyl.1920 Buicks.

There are no other way to do this operation.I have done it 8-10 times.(without other than handtong)

Good Luck Leif in Sweden.

Edited by Leif Holmberg (see edit history)
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Speaking of Battery Cables, I have found that tractor supply has a decent collection as many old tractors are 6 volt and require heavy cables. Also 12, and 24 volt diesel tractors require heavy duty cables. Look around there battery section. Dandy Dave!

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It took a couple of hours beating and the use of a torch, but now the coupling is separate from the s-g.

The last cm went relatively easy, because of the radical cleaning of that shaft part; good advise, Leif. I would never have dared to hammer so long and consistently, without the advise, as I am afraid to break something inside the pump or shaft drive.

The electrical connections I will take loose, no problem.

But then Ben advises to lock the starter pedal with a piece of wood. I do not understand this, as it will engage the gear in the starter ring.

I cannot find the exact parts for this pedal, as the rigth hand steering column block a lot of the view and the levers of gas and ignition too.

Question: To get the s-g out, do I have to undo any other connection apart from the electrical ones and the 3 bolts underneath?

Ceers, Lex

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Helas, the s-g gets stuck.

Firstly, I suppose the starter pinion will not get through the hole, so I have to take the top cover off. That means taking away the brake pedal etc. as well, as they hamper the operation.

Secondly the pipe/bush at the engine side will not come loose from the s-g, that I cannot shift quite enough forwards, as it is against the drive shaft now. I took out the coupling plate, which gave another 8mm, not enough.

Tirthly, a sideward move is impossible because of the steering column.

Seems to become a major operation, unless somebody has a smarter clue??

Cheers from black handed Lex

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Lex,

Here I mention the small air pump, and you have one! Ha! The drive gear you are missing (from my memory) looked like a normal gear that had been cut in two leaving two half circles that were bolted together with two bolts on a tapped collar section clamping the two halves on the shaft.

Is there a name on the pump to help me search for one for my car?

Thx!

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Hai Leif, the starter pedal is blocked all the way down, like Ben suggested. So no more play to be expected from that end. My top cover seems to be bolted down with only two bolts on the right side; the middel ones I see on your engine I cannot find. But when I undo the lid, it will effectively undo the starter pedal pressing, as that forms part of the lid.

Unfortunately I will not be able to do more work before Monday. Maybe Ben can give a clue?

Brian, I can not find a name on the compressor, but will take a better look in bright daylight. Don't suppose I'll find one, as I did not see one before.

Cheers, Lex

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The blocked pedal can be if the gears are stright against each other,if you have a crank try to use this so the gears will fit.Someone else can try to press the pedal at the same time.Just a thought.I don`t think anything else will block the starter pedal.

Leif in Sweden.

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Leif, it's me whoblocked the pedal with a piece of wood, as Ben suggested.

Brian, Kellogg is the name of the airpump; now you can search for one.

Cheers, Lex

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Lex

You are so close, so hang in there. Mine is a 1925 standard, which seems to be different re the actuating shaft (from the starter pedal) to yours? The cover to the gear area on mine simply lifts off once the 4 screws are removed and once you have the starter pedal depressed, you can lift the s-g up, forward and out with only a minor wrestle (with the water pump shaft out and the three mounting bolts for the s-g + electrical leads). The acutating shaft is not attached to it.

Do you have a manual, as this will give you the order of things here. Apart from struggling with the water pump shaft (thanks again Leif for your help at the time) I simply followed the manual for the s-g removal to the letter and it all worked.

As Leif has suggested, by depressing the pedal, you shorten the actuating shaft and this alows you to get the s-g out. Just a matter of working out how to do this with the different actuation to mine??

Sorry I can't help fully. Ben

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Ben, Leif, Brian and others, Here is the pic I wanted, but not succeeded, to insert in december.

I just returned home and have to keep my hands free of dirt for the next days, so will not try further (the risk of divorce might be too high :D:D).

As far as I know mine is a canadian build master 6. A manual I do not have.

Will keep you informed.

Cheers, Lex

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Hi everybody,

Just sneeked away with dirty clothes and took some pics.

In thread 21 you see the s-g moved forward about 1cm.

The brownish greased shaft on top I suppose to be directing the starter brushes. It seems to be actuated by the lever left from it (at a right angle).

The actual driving axle is parallel and a bit right from under the greasy shaft (in the pic left from it); it is blocked from coming out by something inside the clutch dome, I suppose the gear.

The rods totally left and left/under are interconnected by a link and are for gas.

Next pic shows the same, seen from above the s-g, looking to the clutch dome and its gear cover.

The thick shaft on top of the pic I believe to be the actuating rod for the starter shift gear. It is coming from the starter pedal casting and going into the dome on top of the cover (which is one casting with the cover).

Till now, I only can find two nuts holding the cover down, both on the right side of it.

Maybe you can get an idea of the real situation?

The two other pics are taken from the right side. The greeny/blue tube right/above is the steering column.

Have a nice weekend!

Lex

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Well, the s-g is off now. It needed the footboards around the pedals to be taken away te get access to the dome on the lid with the 'tower', under which the sliding pinion for the starter is located.

Both starter pedal and various rods for the carb had to be cleared, after which the lid could just be lifted enough to let the pinion on the s-g come out.

Apart from a lot of dirt most parts looks quite ok.

As mentioned by one of you, the ball bearing on the driven side (6203) was bad and has been replaced.

I scraped all the insulators from the collectors neatly under the copper surface and put everything together again. It is turning freely and with power on quite well.

The driving pinion had both its outstanding flats nearly breaking away, so it was filled by brazing and filed for good fitting.

Here rises another question: Between pinion and bearing bush another bush was placed, a slit one. You see it on the pic, separate from the s-g. Is this bush original, or has somebody placed it between the (maybe then already partly tearing) flats of the pinion and the bush?

I rather tend to leave it away, but would like your opinion.

Cheers, Lex

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I found the generator shaking a bit too much when powered by the battery, so I checked why. The starter collector had two low spots, where the brushes jumped over. When pushing a brush a bit harder, the starter went a bit faster too, shaking more as well!

So I took the rotor apart and skimmed both collectors and redid the deepeninjg of the insulation.

The difference is radical: the starter turns twice as fast as before and the shaking is almost gone, which means a lot less stress on the parts as well. I never expected that the collectors had such an effect on equilibrity.

Once mounted the engine now starts as never before, within a few turns, and the ammeter gives a steady reading.

Only problem now is the petrol; the vacuum 'pump' seems to pull vacuum in the lower tank as well. The engine starts and dies after half a minute from lack of petrol. The petrol only flows into the carb again after half a minute.

Unfortunately, I cannot find a respirator bore or hole that might have been obstructed. (the petrol flows from the main tank to the 'pump')

The respirator tube on the top of the tank is free and the valve for the vacuum/air seems to function ok, but that's only for the top part of the tank. I expected a bore the to the lower tank, but can't find one.

Would be obliged when somebody can tell me where to look for it. Will make a search on the forum as well.

Cheers from Lex

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How 'the modern motor engineer' can help you, printed in 1933!

The Stewart Vacuum Tank is exhaustedly described and a drawing shows the (quite hidden) air vent for the lower chamber.

It is a bore at 45 degrees from the air vent plug to the side of the tank. In the pic you see the wire I pushed into it.

The connecting of the small pipe was nearly blocked as well.

The Buick is now both starting and keeps running!

My thanks to all of you who helped and I hope, someone else might have some joy from it as well.

Cheerio from Lex

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My thanks to all of you who helped and I hope, someone else might have some joy from it as well.

Cheerio from Lex

Looks like you have endured, "The joys of owning an early Automobile." ;) May it give you Many Happy Miles. :cool: Happy Trails, Dandy Dave!

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

From Ben in ''spare tyre clamp 24-47 '':

Great to hear that your S-G is operational. I have not used my crank handle for months now also since working on mine, although I still have a suspect clutch bearing on the distributor drive that I can't get a replacement for.

Answer from Lex, a bit wide going, to keep it interesting for other readers as well:

Hallo Ben, I do not understand your clutch bearing problems on the s-g. The driven side bearing of the rotor (next to the freewheel or clutch) in my machine is 6203, a standard DIN bearing; but the s-g migth have been re-engineerd sometime. I cannot remember a clutch bearing, apart from the freewheel-rollers, but I will check the pics I made.

Here they are, excuse for the bad quality, but I only made them as a guide to put things back again. Best 'read' the in the reverse way:

'

4904 shows the front (driven) side of my s-g, with the bearing 6203 in place. It was in a bad state and had been replaced before, unfortunately with the sealing lip keeping new oil out..

4903 shows the components:

In the middle the freewheel part with spring-loaded rollers, that is keyed on the rotor with the plate beside it.

Over it goes the worm-wheel on the right, which has a drum inside against which the rollers are squeezed (generator-action) or released (starter action). The worm drives the ignition and is driven by the axle from the waterpump via a double slide connector (not shown).

The bolt at the utmost right keeps everything together.

4902 close-up whith freewheel mounted on rotor.

4901 ditto, overview

4900 freewheel components

So all in all, first check your rotor bearing and the rollers and their springs (that should have roughly the same feeling).

Then check the faces where the rollers move over and the drum inside the worm wheel. These should be smooth; any rust will hamper the function.

Do not use heavy grease on the freewheel components, but just a smear of light grease or oil.

Bearing and worm wheel will reward a nice patch of grease.

Cheers, Lex

PS Engine now starts after a few revs when cold, and at once when warm.

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