RUST REMOVAL using molasses???

[22george]

hAS ANYONE USED 1 PART MOLASSES 9 PARTS WATER to remove rust? You put your part

in the mix for 2-4-weeks and it removes the rust and paint??? You just rinse

off with water after. Any thoughts good or bad? I found this on youtube and am

trying it in a 5 gallon bucket on rusted bolts and washers.

[Guest Silverghost]

I have heard this sort of mixture used to neutralize the rust effects of salt water in antique marine engines.

Check-out the tech Forum under Salt on~ www.oldmarineengines.com

They typicaly soak the engine cooling waterjackets with this mixture for six months to one year !

I have never heard that it removes rust or paint on other parts~

Let us know how it works out~

Edited December 3, 2010 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[RonHeberle]

I never heard of that method but certainly interested to know if it works. I enjoy a good wet bottom shoo-fly pie which is made with molasses, makes me wonder!

[hddennis]

I've been doing it on my Maxwell parts for the last 2 years. Can't praise it enough! Try the 5 gallon bucket first just to see how it works. I did a pail full of old files and they came out so clean they actually are sharper!

Howard Dennis

[Guest billybird]

Who would a thunk it. Now I find out I've been sopping paint/rust remover with butter and cathead biscuits all my life!

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

What is happening with this is the mixture of Molasses and water ferments creating ethanol. As is known, ethanol creates havoc with anything of a ferrous nature if not highly diluted, i.e.; gas tanks, fuel lines, etc. So, it is logical that it will remove rust from parts over time. Doubtful if any paint would be removed from the mixture, but it should do a bang up job with surface rust on just about anything given sufficient time.

Molasses also generally have a very high sulfur content which can also become acidic in nature under certain circumstances.

Jim

[RonHeberle]

Wow that is great, I never knew that, I'll have to try it out. Thanks for the information.

[ply33]

Interesting.

But I am an impatient person so I'll stick with using electrolysis for rust removal. Hours or overnight versus weeks. I already have a battery charger and a couple tablespoons of washing soda is probably cheaper than 1/4 to 1/2 gallon of molasses.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Interesting.

But I am an impatient person so I'll stick with using electrolysis for rust removal. Hours or overnight versus weeks. I already have a battery charger and a couple tablespoons of washing soda is probably cheaper than 1/4 to 1/2 gallon of molasses.

Me too! But its a lot faster for smaller parts just to give them a blast of glass beads in the old blasting cabinet after a run through the parts washer to remove any grease they might have on them. Some things deserve a dip in the Berryman's Chemtool bucket if they're real small.

Best investments anyone frequently working on vehicles or even just restoring one is a parts washer, a compressor (at least 5 CFM with 20 gal. tank), a blasting cabinet loaded with glass beads, and a 5 gal. bucket of Berryman's Chemtool with a basket. Saves a lot of time and does it right. Also a good idea to have a couple of aerosol cans of epoxy primer on hand to protect the parts just cleaned if they are to be painted later.

Jim

Edited December 3, 2010 by Jim_Edwards (see edit history)

[Guest HOOIE]

A fella told me about the molasses trick a couple mounths ago and he swears it`s great for sheet metal , especially old stuff that a sandblaster would eat up. I havent tried it yet, thought he might have been BSing me.

[NTX5467]

One of the Horsepower TV spots mentioned white vinegar as a soak agent for removing rust. The sample they had soaked looked pretty good. Not sure about the later smell, though. Might be a good use of "out of date" wines which have turned to vinegar?

NTX5467

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Vinegar is an acid so certainly it would work. Pour a little on a concrete drive and watch it etch the heck out of it. If one can get their hands what is known as 100 volume pickling vinegar it should cut right through light surface rust in a heartbeat. The smell will be gone with a rinse with good old water, just make sure the piece gets thoroughly dried off in a hurry.

Jim

[bhclark]

I've got a 30 gallon bucket of phosphoric acid that works pretty well too, but it seem to turn the metal black, plus it's a bit more hazardous to work with.

i'm going to try the molasses on a bunch of old tools and see how it works.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

I've got a 30 gallon bucket of phosphoric acid that works pretty well too, but it seem to turn the metal black, plus it's a bit more hazardous to work with.

i'm going to try the molasses on a bunch of old tools and see how it works.

Phosphoric acid can be a bit dangerous since it readily reacts with metals to form flammable hydrogen gas. Hope you are only using it in a well ventilated area and have the "NO SMOKING" sign prominently displayed. More or less nasty stuff.

Jim

[bhclark]

Phosphoric acid can be a bit dangerous since it readily reacts with metals to form flammable hydrogen gas. Hope you are only using it in a well ventilated area and have the "NO SMOKING" sign prominently displayed. More or less nasty stuff.

Jim

yes it is, but it works quick! Also does a number on the concrete!

I use it sparingly, but it helped a lot on the front end of my '58 Truck.

You also should not leave it near unprotected metal as I understand it works via fumes as well...

[HotRodTom]

Another user of the molasses rust remover, here. Works good.

I have part of the water pump of my Gardner in there now..

It does smell like hot puke so I leave my container outside. Which means that water pump is probably in a chunk of ice..

Its great for all those things you want clean, but dont want to spend the time on. (old chain, etc) works great on old pliers that were left outside and froze up.

The parts will flash rust very quickly after cleaning them off, so I either shot them with primer, or the stuff I wont be paint, I just dump in a container of waste oil. And you are correct it will not remove paint, or the rust that is covered with grease. Has to be bare metal.

[hddennis]

Tom, I know what you mean about the smell! Wife hates when I open my 45 gallon tank outside. To be honest, it's a small price to pay for the great job it does. I've had a tub of unknown strength mixture for about 2 years and recently I chucked a pair of nice 1917 license plates in to take off the rust around the edges. Imagine my shock when a week later they were rust AND paint free. I power wash my parts and then brush on Jasco Metal Prep & Primer I get from Lowes. I have quite a few parts for my Maxwell that have remained rust free in my unheated humid Georgia garage for almost 2 years now with Jasco as it's only protection.

Howard Dennis

[oldcar]

Hi y'all

I too have used this molasses bath technique but not for some time. The smell is enough to put you off. It is a bit like making home-brew rum! Here is Australia the "bush-flies" love it too. It certainly works and I know lots of older Australian restorers use it. An old enamel bath tub is ideal if you have the room but you must be able to keep it covered. Parts wash clean in ordinary tap water after this treatment. It will remove old paint too but this takes a little longer. You need to wear rubber gloves as it will stain your hands. It is best to suspend the part that you are cleaning on a piece of galvanised wire rather than having to go fishing. I have had some small badly rusted parts "disappear". One problem is getting rid of the stuff when you have finished with it. Most wives will object to you carrying buckets full of it through the house to the bath room in order to flush it down the toilet. This may not be a good idea for people with septic tank systems either!

oldcar

Edited December 8, 2010 by oldcar (see edit history)

[ply33]

Hi y'all

I too have used this molasses bath technique but not for some time. The smell is enough to put you off. It is a bit like making home-brew rum! Here is Australia the "bush-flies" love it too. It certainly works and I know lots of older Australian restorers use it. An old enamel bath tub is ideal if you have the room but you must be able to keep it covered. Parts wash clean in ordinary tap water after this treatment. It will remove old paint too but this takes a little longer. You need to wear rubber gloves as it will stain your hands. It is best to suspend the part that you are cleaning on a piece of galvanised wire rather than having to go fishing. I have had some small badly rusted parts "disappear". One problem is getting rid of the stuff when you have finished with it. Most wives will object to you carrying buckets full of it through the house to the bath room in order to flush it down the toilet. This may not be a good idea for people with septic tank systems either!

oldcar

Yet another reason to go with the electrolysis method: The washing soda and water mixture gets pretty dirty looking but it does not smell nor attract flies. If your plants need an iron supplement, just pour it out in the garden.

[Ivan Saxton]

Molasses/water is a useful method indeed for restoration cleaning, though it is not the best option in all circumstances. I must say that the explanations so far I have read here are entertaining, but perhaps somewhat removed from what people normally learn of basic chemistry and microbiology.

1) The working mixture is a carbohydrate byproduct of sugar refining, well diluted with water. White sugar is the cheapest and most pure chemical product that we ever encounter. Molasses is anything but simple and pure. It will contain some plant proteins or remnants of them. The amino acids which constitute proteins include cystene, cysteine, and methionine, which do importantly contain sulfur, because the sulfur bonds are what give proteins elasticity which is obviously more important to animals than plants. There is still elastic protein in plants though they do not walk around: You only have to watch a loaf of bread you make or a pizza dough rise before baking to see that.

But I doubt there is a huge amount of sulfur in Molasses.

2) What do you observe when you carefully wash a heavily rusted article that has cleaned in molasses? You get a clean, deeply pitted surface, and when the dark brown molasses is dispersed by the washing water, you see a lot of very fine grey iron powder.

3) The de-rusting takes a little while to start; but then the enthusiasm is dependant on the temperature.

All this indicates that the de-rusting is done for you by harmless aerobic bacteria, which derive their food source form the molasses, and and get their oxygen by de-oxidizing the rust. If you try to do it outside in your fierce winter cold with ice on top, you litte friends will be rather inactive. If you try to heat it up, you might take it beyond their range of comfort and survival. You would expect little involvement of yeasts, because they are predominantly anaerobic.

Only de-rust disassembled items if you can, and never take a vacation and lt the mixture dry out. I knew one man who dug a long hole in the ground, lined it with black plastic, and immersed a 1913 Cadillac chassis with springs and axles. I didn't see it go into the molasses. He probably was not very well approaching his demise; but he let it dry out completely. There was no recoverable Cadillac left. There was little but dried molasses and iron powder.

Electrolitic cleaning is good, too: But try potassium carbonate as electrolyte instead of sodium hydroxide. It is still alkaline and should always be handled with respect: but it is not fierce and nasty in the same way. Better still, when you finish with it you can use it on you garden . Potassium is the predominant monovalent cation used by plants. It does not interfere with soil drainage and soil structure as sodium does when it saturates the ion exchange sites of the clay in the soil. Please pardon unintentional spelling mistakes.

[hddennis]

Ivan, just curious if you can tell us why that Cadillac chassis disappeared? Your response seems to suggest that we have so far been lucky to have retrieved anything after using this caustic acid.

After using this method on hundreds of items for years I've seen NO ill effects. The closest thing would be if an item isn't fully emersed it will have a fresh rust on the exposed area it didn't go in with but it doesn't dissolve and the rust is equal to any iron object left in a wet environment for several weeks.

Howard Dennis

[Ivan Saxton]

Howard, it is not caustic and it is not acid. Acid and alkali neutralise each other exactly if in equal strength and proportion. Molasses doesn't work like that. What happens is that bacteria remove the rust by robbing the oxygen from iron oxide , because they need oxygen for their utilization of nutrients from the molasses so they can reproduce and proliferate. They are harmless and useful bacteria. When you derust by almost any method, unless you clean method redidue from the surface and protect it as soon as possible, the surface is very chemically reactive with greater proportionate surface area than before exposed to oxygen and moisture in the atmosphere, and in may visibly rust as you look at it.

What happened in that case was the thing dried out so the actual metal was no longer protected from the atmosphere by the anaerobic medium with its oxygen hungry mega billions of microscopic workers. The iron powder from rust reverted to rust, of course, but the base metal rapidly turned to rust scale till that is all that was left, effectively. I cannot give you a time frame, because I never got to visit Arthur in his last several years, though I saw him several times when he was down here to do work for a mutual friend. I bet you have never let your molasses cleaning dry out with work it it, allowed the tide to receed. I don't advise it.

[hddennis]

Thanks Ivan, I'm going to bow to your chemical knowledge here but still want to say this is the ONLY case of damage related to molasses use I've ever heard of.

For those still curious:

Howard Dennis

Edited December 9, 2010 by hddennis (see edit history)

[Ivan Saxton]

Thanks Ivan, I'm going to bow to your chemical knowledge here but still want to say this is the ONLY case of damage related to molasses use I've ever heard of.

For those still curious:

Howard Dennis

I agree, Howard. But it will go wrong if you leave it for a long time and totally ignore it. It should never happen, but if it does it could be something a lot of people would want and admire that is effectively destroyed. I was a friend of Arthur for about 30 years. That 1913 Cadillac chassis and axles was originally far superior to the same portion of my 1913 Cadillac project. Probably most people have not bothered to fix in memory their rudiments of high school science. I have just tried to give explanation of what is happening, in terms that anyone might comprehend. Bacteria can do all sorts of interesting and clever things. Suddenly the sulfur bacteria have done most of the clean-up of the gulf oil spill. BP and Hallyburton did not pay for them to do it. Everyone was just lucky that the gulf temperature was fine for them to breed up and work. Alaska was too cold.

Other end of the scale of possibility are the root nodule bacteria associated with legumes , which provide nitrogen for plant growth. Things always seem a lot more rational if you apply a smattering of science.

[hddennis]

To be honest this has helped out a lot. Every time I tell someone about this method I get the same question, How can this possibly work?? Now not only do we know that, we also find out how lucky we were on the Gulf oil spill. Thanks for sharing your knowledge Ivan.

Howard Dennis

[bhclark]

Well, I finally set up my bucket of Molasses mix. It's in the basement for now...smells pretty good, but I'm sure that will change as the chemical process gets underway.

I tossed a few model T tools in. I'll check them in a week or so and see how they look.

Certainly less caustic than the phosphoric acid, wouldn't want that in the basement and with it 10 degrees outside, I'm not going out there to de-rust anything!

From the description of the chemical process, it almost sounds like the mixture works even better over time as the bacteria multiply?

I plan on spray coating them with a bit of metal-prep after rinsing them for rust prevention.

[hddennis]

Good Luck with it Brian, keep us posted on your results.

Howard Dennis

[Guest Silverghost]

Some of that very same Bacteria is slowly eating-up the massive Titanic and other ship wrecks !

In a few decades it will just be a pile of old iron oxide dust on the north atlantic ocean floor !

[ex98thdrill]

A fella told me about the molasses trick a couple mounths ago and he swears it`s great for sheet metal , especially old stuff that a sandblaster would eat up. I havent tried it yet, thought he might have been BSing me.

I've heard the same thing about Coca-Cola, but I've never had enough nerve to try it.

[bhclark]

Well, Coca-Cola works on that nasty stuff on the battery terminals.

It's quite acidic!

[nearchoclatetown]

Well, I finally set up my bucket of Molasses mix. It's in the basement for now...smells pretty good, but I'm sure that will change as the chemical process gets underway.

I tossed a few model T tools in. I'll check them in a week or so and see how they look.

Certainly less caustic than the phosphoric acid, wouldn't want that in the basement and with it 10 degrees outside, I'm not going out there to de-rust anything!

From the description of the chemical process, it almost sounds like the mixture works even better over time as the bacteria multiply?

I plan on spray coating them with a bit of metal-prep after rinsing them for rust prevention.

If you have it in your basement I'd bet you either can't smell or you have the wrong molassas. You have to use the kind used in animal feed, like horse or cattle, not human molassas. No real need to use metal prep either. Rinse very thoroughly, wash with something like Spray Nine, and dry. I have a gas tank I did about 3 years ago, never painted, never flash rusted. And the Coca- Cola thing is a myth, I've won bets with that one.

[hddennis]

Although my last batch was mixed with the animal feed you mention, my first try with a 5 gallon bucket and rusty files was in regular pancake syrup from the grocery store. Worked so well, that's why I went to a 45 gallon tank.

I went with the 50 lb. bag of dried molasses only because I was unable to find a local source for gallons of feed grade molasses.

Howard Dennis

[oldcar]

Howard

Rather than dried Molasses try to find the liquid type about the same consistency as semi-fluid grease. Here in Australia you can buy it from a Stock feed store in litre pots. It dilutes readily in water.

Ivan will come up with an irrefutable answer every time. Just take what he says as gospel.

I left some small (badly rusted) clamps (the sort that secure wiring conduit and fuel pipe to the inside of the chassis channel) in my molasses for several months in the hope that it would clean them up. It sure did, totally! Virtually only the remains of the wire they were suspended into the solution by remained.

Take the word of another Aussie.

oldcar

Edited December 11, 2010 by oldcar (see edit history)

[hddennis]

Oldcar, that's what I was after but haven't been able to find a source here in rural Georgia. I called many feed stores and none had a source. Maybe the type you mention is a lot stronger than what I used and that's why I've never experienced any metal loss?

Howard Dennis

[nearchoclatetown]

Any local feed store that makes their own feed has it. Probably not an Agway or Tractor Supply type as they buy prepackaged feed. Animal feed molassas is from red beets, human is from sugar cane. I'm guessing the product sold as Rust Beeter is animal feed, because of the name spelling. I pay around $.10 a pound for mine. The parts HAVE to stay submerged too. It gases and will destroy the part out of the liquid. I know someone that tried to clean a MC gas tank while he went on vacation, sealed the tank with duct tape so it would not stink up his garage. He came home to an exploded gas tank and stickey all over the ceiling. This is a job for outside!

[hddennis]

I called all over middle Georgia and the only thing I could find or order was the dried molasses.

As for the metal loss that keeps coming up, I'm still using the original small gauge mechanic's wire I started with 2 years ago and it has not shown any metal loss at all, either in or out of the molasses. Come to think of it, when I started this, I took two modern Maxwell House coffee cans and filled them full of louvers so I could do nuts & bolts. Several of those cans have spent at least 1 year submerged and are still intact. You can't get much thinner than a coffee can.

Howard Dennis

Edited December 11, 2010 by hddennis (see edit history)

[bhclark]

Well, it's only been a few days. I did use grocery store bought molasses, as I didn't see any mention of anything specific. Us Suburban type don't know about that farm stuff!

I'll give it a week and if I don't see any difference, I'll contact the local feed store and see what they have. I need 50 lbs of bicarbonate of Soda anyway.

[Ivan Saxton]

To be honest this has helped out a lot. Every time I tell someone about this method I get the same question, How can this possibly work?? Now not only do we know that, we also find out how lucky we were on the Gulf oil spill. Thanks for sharing your knowledge Ivan.

Howard Dennis

Another job that some anerobic bacteria can do is produce alcohol from carbohydrate; though for drinking purposes yeasts are mostly used. Now we have had a maximum level since the early 1970's of 0.05% ethanol in the blood before we get a substantial penalty for drink-driving. This has never bothered me personally because I never learned to like drinking it. It is , of course, a low grade toxin which we deal with in two ways. We excrete it via the kidneys. Also we have the ability in our liver to turn it from alcohol to carbohydrate in the liver due to a very specialised alcohol de-hydroxylase biochemical reaction. (That is, when the OH radiacal is removed, the rest is high energy food. This is why excessive ethanol consumption can lead to obesity.) Now the developement of this detoxication ability probably had a very long lead-time. I know someone who has chronic hepatitis C, who only needs to drink one small can of beer to become paralytic for several days. Now we actually have bacteria and yeasts living in our gut that are capable of fermentation to produce either ethanol or a mix of ethanol/lactic acid. (Others produce B goup vitamins which are vital for health).

Now my father unfortunately died in a road accident, and though he never drank alcohol and had been to see his bank manager, his autopsy showed 0.017 blood alcohol. There is carbohydratein the gut, effectively without axygen, and the temperature is ideal. I have a problem with laws which require zero blood alcohol, because you can get false positives: Also, any change of accuracy automatically changes the law without debate or decision by parliament.

There was query about the amount of dehydrated molasses to use. (Dry molasses is probably better for dry cattle feed.) The suger content is highy soluble in water, so you should probably count about 10% less water in dry molasses than liquid

[bhclark]

Well, I finally set up my bucket of Molasses mix. It's in the basement for now...smells pretty good, but I'm sure that will change as the chemical process gets underway.

I tossed a few model T tools in. I'll check them in a week or so and see how they look.

Certainly less caustic than the phosphoric acid, wouldn't want that in the basement and with it 10 degrees outside, I'm not going out there to de-rust anything!

From the description of the chemical process, it almost sounds like the mixture works even better over time as the bacteria multiply?

I plan on spray coating them with a bit of metal-prep after rinsing them for rust prevention.

Pictures to come, but after only 1 week, several of the tools are nice and clean.

Others seem to need another soak.

An old Ford adjustable wrench that would barely turn before, now moves like butter, while a pair of rusted shut vise grips now operate freely.

It was too cold to go outside and get the metal prep out of the garage, so I just coated everything with a bit of oil to prevent re-rusting.

the smell on the other hand.....when I took the lid off, I could see the chemical reaction, bubbles hovering on the top in the exact shape as the tools below, BUT a nice thick coat of mold around the edges.

It's going outside now, which will surely slow the process at 10 degrees outside.

[hddennis]

Glad to hear it's working for you Brian. I've never found a rhyme or reason as to why some parts clean with no effort at all very quickly and others don't. What I've learned to do is check things after a week and remove all that were done and everything else I give a quick scrub with a wire brush and return to the pail for another week. Sometimes a item is pulled out that appears to still be solid rust but the powerwasher blows all the brown off to reveal raw clean metal. Can't wait to see your pictures, Thanks for sharing your results.

Howard Dennis