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Bill Clark

Moved to Class 04B

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I think it time for me to chime in. I saw no need for this 04B class in the first place and have yet to see a criteria for how certain cars fit the class. I am sure there are other cars that would also fit in the 04B class but are not. I thought it was just fine the way it was with ALL cars in the Production Class. All it did was to create more work for the AACA. I also don't understand why they want to exclude my T-2 Bus to be put, I suppose into another class, here again more work for the AACA. I thought the survey we VW owners received was very vague and should have been presented with a little more detail. I am sending my survey back with the recommendation of putting the VW's and the rest of 04B back into the Production Class where they belong. How about getting some other SMALL and BIG car owners opinion.

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Rreisch, Good to see you at last Hershey. I was wondering when you were going to voice your an opinion on the Forum. Noted that you just joined. Welcome. See you next year?

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I have been following this class since it was in the planning stages. I got involved because I ASKED about it when it was announced on this web site and OFFERED TO HELP. If you look at post 173 in this thread, you will find the criteria as it stands now. The class was created to try to respond to a perceived need and I am glad they did it. It works for me. I will be entering a second car into judging in 04-b this year. (the first has achieved its senior) It was made clear from the beginning that 04 a and b were a work in progress and would evolve as time went by. As I have said a number of times in this and a number of other threads, I am happy with the class and with its evolution. Good things sometimes take time. I think the judging group is doing a good job trying to respond to those who are not happy and should be commended for doing so.

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Dave…we all know you're a fan of the 04b class. We're all glad it works for you…and your cars. You were one of the lucky folks to have been involved since the conception…we know that too. Many of us must have missed this grand announcement back then to join in on the fun…but I'm sure we would have made our opinions known then as well. Are the claims and questions brought up here, out of line?

Is there something wrong with the VW owners wanting to be back in the production classes? Does the presence of the VW's in 04b validate the existence of your cherished, 04b class? Again, why can't an owner choose what class they would like to present in?? You can have your 04b class and anyone else that wants to be in 04b…heck, why not lobby for a Crosley only class, seems to be the latest trend and it only takes "several" folks to get it going. This is a discussion forum and that's all that is going on here.

Being that you were on the frontline in the battle to get 04b started…it is obvious you don't understand the frustration one may feel when they were just pulled out of a Production Class, that they may have been competing in for years, to be plopped into some new class that was set up to accommodate "small cars", defined by a random list. We were told to write our letters…and we did…we got a "survey" and what does it ask? Stay in 04b or start a Volkswagen only class….neither of which the people posting here wants….can you at least understand the frustration?

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I'm not here to be disrespectful or unappreciative for the work that is trying to be accomplished. I enjoy good debate and discussion. This is a discussion forum…set up and hosted by the AACA…it is an excellent tool for members to discuss such issues. In Steve's conversations or the CJC's conversations with these disgruntled VW owners…has it been recommended that they view this discussion on the AACA forum? It would certainly be nice to hear their side of this issue, rather than hearing it second or third handed. We've seen several VW owners who are in favor of going back to the Production Classes and who are not forum regulars, take the time to log in and join…just to make a statement for the record. I would love to hear from one, just one…that didn't like their life in the Production Classes.

Would I like to handle the complaint letters from VW owners that are not keen on life in the Production Classes, you ask. HECK YEA….at least then, I'd know who they are, what type of car they have and I could hear what they are complaining about. I'll go as far as posting my phone number on this thread…I'll go back and put one numeral in each of my posts…just to ensure that they have to read and know what their VW friends are saying and feeling in this thread, prior to calling.

Using my Kreskin ESP home game in conjunction with the magic 8 ball I predict the following(as this combination has made other correct predictions within this thread):

1. The "survey" results will be discussed at the Philly meeting

2. A FINAL decision will be made on the placement of the VW's

3. An implementation date will be announced

4. This thread will be locked

5. Later to be deleted

6. Ron Mann will be roughed up by AACA thugs and thrown into a trunk…although it will have to be a trunk of a "large car" because he won't fit into "small car" trunk!

post-49045-143141728121_thumb.jpg

All joking aside…I really hope the correct decision will be made. A great number, of high quality VW show cars, are represented by the folks that have posted on this thread in favor of returning to the Production Classes. In several conversations outside of this forum(as it was once pointed out, the world does not revolve around this forum) many of these cars may never be seen on an AACA show field again. Is that a threat? No…sadly…it could end up being the truth as the continued frustration of this issue looms. Look at Hershey…world's greatest car show…9 VW's received awards in 2011…1 in 2012.

Sitting back…and waiting.

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Ron;

Please note I have not commented recently until someone proposed moving ALL 04-b back to production classes. Of course I have no objection to VW's going wherever the majority think they fit best. That would be unreasonable. I also don't want to make this a personal issue. I understand the frustration of those who have over the years formed friendships and bonds in the other classes. I am a relative newcomer to the AACA and have not formed these bonds (and it looks like I'm not getting any with 04-b either ...that's a joke). I will say that I don't however, believe in letting people just choose where they want to be. Once a rule is set, I believe in abiding by it or I move on. When the decision is made with the feelings of the majority considered... what will those in the minority do?? I would hope they will honor the ruling and, if still unhappy, continue to work to improve and make change... Oh and by the way, if the thugs decide to put you in a VW trunk, I hope they choose the right end of the car!! Might be a tight fit otherwise!

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All is good Dave...I see RReish mentioned the "all" return part...I don't think he really meant that. He is more worried about the VW's.

Like HPOF and DPC...an owner chooses to show in that class...once they are IN...they are there for good, or unless they do some paperwork, return awards. I'm just proposing and have been for sometime, why can't a car owner choose their class and be done with it? The small car class remains in tact...if you choose to go there, great. If I choose to show in Production...super. Crosley truck guy wants to be in commercial...awesome. Crosley Hot Shot guy and Ghia guy wants to be in sports car...fine and dandy! You either could NEVER leave that class or if would have to do some major red tape (in order to discourage such a move) to move to another class. If the car fits, by definition of the class, where is the pain?

What will happen is going to happen...folks will either choose to play along or they just won't come out to play. We all shall see.....

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I am glad that you have enough VW people to be able to make a voice within the club. I only know of 4 or 5 Crosley people who are actively showing. I think this too creates some of my point of view. As far as what class to be in, I think it needs to be tight for us new folks to know where we may best be. I got involved in this contraversy when I asked then VP of class judging Herb Oakes for advice as to where to place my Farm O Road as I was restoring it. As you say. a Pickup or panel delivery could easily be in commercial, a Hotshot with sportscars, or these or any of the other models in the corrsponding year class. With 04-a/b, it makes it very clear where I belong. My Germanic way of thinking preferrs things neat and orderly with a definate place for everything.

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Quotes from posting #205. Quote #1: ‘I'm not here to be disrespectful or unappreciative for the work that is trying to be accomplished. I enjoy good debate and discussion. This is a discussion forum…set up and hosted by the AACA…it is an excellent tool for members to discuss such issues. In Steve's conversations or the CJC's conversations with these disgruntled VW owners…has it been recommended that they view this discussion on the AACA forum? It would certainly be nice to hear their side of this issue, rather than hearing it second or third handed. We've seen several VW owners who are in favor of going back to the Production Classes and who are not forum regulars, take the time to log in and join…just to make a statement for the record. I would love to hear from one, just one…that didn't like their life in the Production Classes.’

Quote #2: ‘A great number, of high quality VW show cars, are represented by the folks that have posted on this thread in favor of returning to the Production Classes. In several conversations outside of this forum (as it was once pointed out, the world does not revolve around this forum) many of these cars may never be seen on an AACA show field again. Is that a threat? No…sadly…it could end up being the truth as the continued frustration of this issue looms. Look at Hershey…world's greatest car show…9 VW's received awards in 2011…1 in 2012.’

Ron as always you hit the nail on the head with your responses. Thanks. I agree with you 100%. I was thoroughly discouraged when I saw only 1 Volkswagen in 4B this past year. Had me wondering what in the dickens I was doing out there judging cars that I knew absolutely nothing about. I asked a lot of questions to my team captain. When I showed my Karmann Ghia in a production class before I went HFOF I always enjoyed the simple fact that I was in an AACA meet where people who didn’t know much about my car would take the time to stop and talk. Sure beat the dickens out of a Volkswagen only meet where ‘Everyone is a bloody expert’, and usually they only stop long enough to tell you what is wrong with your car.

I have also offered to help, but haven’t been invited. Perhaps I should send a letter. Two previous presidents have asked AACA members to get involved in committees, leadership positions, etc. The most recent appeal was this issue of the magazine. Yes, I'd still like to help, and I know you would, and dollars to donuts so would Charlie, and some others. But for me someone will have to ask.

No, the 4's class does not affect me directly. I show in HPOF, and when my '55 is done it will go DPC if it ever comes to an AACA meet. If I were showing in a production class, and was told I was now being moved I know I would not be pleased. Did this happen to muscle car owners when the muscle car classes were formed awhile back? Just curious, and here’s why. I have judged muscle cars in the production classes since then. Of course it is easier to show your muscle car in a production class then it would be to slip a Volkswagen in.

Maybe the AACA does not revolve around the Forum, but when it takes this long and this many responses, and let’s not forget the letters, to get attention to an issue then I am really left wondering. No, I'm not being negative. Read all 200 plus messages again, and then form your opinions. I spent this afternoon reading them all again, and doing a lot of thinking before I wrote this response, and the other long one that proceeded.

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Ron, if I am given the surveys I will happily share the comments from VW owners with you! In fact I would love too! You are going to be surprised I think. I have not seen many of them but have been kept in the loop about the responses.

Just like the hysteria over the class 37 issue many years ago the forum does not seem to generate enough response by a signifcant number of AACA members. The club appreciates the thoughts and passion by those that are on this forum but many are not even AACA members nor do forum members speak for the membership at large.

Ron, we have purchased a trunk for you and of course it is not small! :) As I have stated several times, the club normally ends up doing what the majority of the AACA members want us to do. We have no vested interest in any one scenario. Going to production classes for VW causes no hardship or problems for us whatsoever. Staying the same causes no problems and adding a special class for VW owners is not a big problem either.

It will be a interesting discussion this week with the committee.

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There will be a second and more comprehensive survey out soon. The results of the last survey were overwhelming in one direction but the committee wants to be 100% sure it understands the wishes of the majority of the VW owners and accepts that the last survey was flawed in design which could have led to that result. A high percentage of VW owners responded and we greatly appreciate it.

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Hmmmm….interesting. Look forward to the updated survey.

Since some folks may end up being a bit confused on what is going on…or why all the "surveys"... I hope there it some factual background and information in the cover letter and/or directions to view this thread on the AACA Discussion forums, so people really get an understanding of what's up.

Thanks for the update.

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There will be a second and more comprehensive survey out soon. The results of the last survey were overwhelming in one direction but the committee wants to be 100% sure it understands the wishes of the majority of the VW owners and accepts that the last survey was flawed in design which could have led to that result. A high percentage of VW owners responded and we greatly appreciate it.

Thanks for the update Steve.

I am cautiously optimistic...

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Ron, nothing interesting. In fact, you are getting what you wanted. The survey overwhelmingly was in favor of a separate class. We agreed that the survey should have had the option of going to production classes. Soooo, another survey to make 100% sure that we make the fairest decision possible. There will be an explanation of "what's up" but we will do our best to let people make up their own minds about what they prefer and not try to guide them to any certain conclusion. The Class Judging Committee is going the extra mile to try and get the best decision possible for our members.

Edited by Steve Moskowitz (see edit history)

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Well everyone a rather interesting response to the initial survey. There is still hope for a return to the way it used to be. Thanks judging committee for going the extra mile with another survey. And thanks Steve M. for the updates.

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Since I'm getting "my way"…do you think the new survey could be titled the "Ron Mann Honorary Survey" or something? :)

Well…you can read this a couple of ways.

If the majority of the VW owners wanted OUT of 04b…and into their own Volkswagen class….they must really not like being in 04b, right?!!? Which was the basis of this whole movement.

:confused:

I would be willing to bet that if you would, let's say…you take one of the "mixed marque" high performance classes…and you sent out a "survey" asking if they would like to stay in the high performance class OR start a Mopar only class…you would get the same results.

If the small car class would have been laid out with a criteria and a mandatory move was not implemented…how many "small" car owners, VW or not, do you think would have moved on their own? Just curious....

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Ron, nothing interesting. In fact, you are getting what you wanted. The survey overwhelmingly was in favor of a separate class. We agreed that the survey should have had the option of going to production classes. Soooo, another survey to make 100% sure that we make the fairest decision possible. There will be an explanation of "what's up" but we will do our best to let people make up their own minds about what they prefer and not try to guide them to any certain conclusion. The Class Judging Committee is going the extra mile to try and get the best decision possible for our members.

Hi Steve,

I was wondering will there be a place on this new survey for T-2's? If there should be an all VW class will the T-2's be in or out of it? I personally think that VW's should be put back into the production class as in the past. Dick...

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Ron;

I guess you already know my answer!!! And before this all blew up, I really thought the majority of "small car" owners would have felt the same. Most microcar owners share a sort of a kinship, and common interests. In fact many of us collect multiple makes so the class made sense to me. I really didn't understand the difference of opinion the majority of VW owners seem to have. I have also seen recently the exclusion of VW's from microcar consideration in some circles. It is seemingly a very difficult spot. I really wish you guys well in finding a solution and if I can help, say so!!! In the meantime, please forgive my naivete on the situation.

Dave

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Dave...it is simple...VW's aren't microcars. Were any VW's part of the big "micro car auction" that just went down? There isn't one VW owner that wouldn't feel unsafe cruising the highway at any time. I would bet more than half of the true micro cars wouldn't feel safe driving from the host hotel to the show field at most AACA events. Think of the Reading event this Spring.....

What happens...happens....

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I certainly wish VWs had been left out of the equation, and would vote for going back to the "pre-class-04b-status quo" for VWs.

I wish all the microcar folks the best, but as far as I am concerned, I drive a production car, and have always enjoyed showing my VW with other regular production cars in AACA national meets.

Edited by stock_steve (see edit history)

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Actually there was three VW's sold at Bruce Weiner's auction. lot 263-a 1959 Beetle Cabriolet - $28,750, Lot 285 a 1965 Karman Ghia Coupe-$25,300, and lot 312 a 1954 Beetle Deluxe Cabriolet at $65,125. (BTW only one Crosley) Your point on the highways is well taken. I parked closer to the show field at Reading for just that reason. I am also paying for parking at Carlisle the same. I think you meant that the VW owners would feel safe driving down the highway....just like I did in my VW days. I had a 65 or66 squareback and a 63 Beetle at one time. Drove them everywhere!! Hey....I'm on your side here...If VW's want to be in another class....let them go! I will miss some of the new friends I've made but I can go find them!!!

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