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Bill Clark

Moved to Class 04B

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I'm glad the definition has some substance...I'll have to review how my VW's would fit in. I've never shown my Beetle with AACA yet.

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Does it matter any more?...

Yes, it does matter, Jim--in my opinion anyway.

Have you communicated your views directly to the VP of Class Judging yet?

Don't forget that there is a National Meeting coming up in Philly next month...

We are hopeful that the class 04b situation (at least as far as the VW owners are concerned) can be improved...

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I have not been on this forum for awhile. A new proposal has been made about VW's. We are considering a survey of all our VW owners to see what they like and the majority will rule. The survey will either be by mail or email and ONLY to VW owners in our system.

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That's great news to hear Steve :D I think all Volkswagen owners will be happy to hear that they will have there chance to finally make there voice heard and put this to rest..I am happy to hear the great news !!!

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I have not been on this forum for awhile. A new proposal has been made about VW's. We are considering a survey of all our VW owners to see what they like and the majority will rule. The survey will either be by mail or email and ONLY to VW owners in our system.

Steve,

Thank You Very Much for the update. Any thoughts as to when the survey will be sent out? Possibly after the Annual Meeting?

Am I correct in thinking that any changes that may result from this survey will take effect in 2014?

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The survey will indicate the next steps for the class judging committee to take so in the mean time no answers to your questions. I would expect the survey in the first quarter of this year.

Edited by Steve Moskowitz (see edit history)

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The survey will indicate the next steps for the classjudging committee to take so in the meantimeno answers to your questions. I would expect the survey in the first quarter of this year.

Thanks Steve.

I look forward to receiving the survey and the opportunity it provides to give input to the class judging committee.

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The survey was sent out but it was reduced to a question about a solution. You do have the ability to make any comments. It is difficult to satisfy everyone and we cannot add more classes then it is absolutely necessary so keep that it mind when you see the club's proposed solution. Also recognize that currently only 50-75 VW's are shown. Thanks for your patience.

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Steve,

Did this survey go out to just the people who have previously shown VW's? I'm currently restoring a bug for my wife, she hopes to show the car for the first time in Charlotte, had planned to take it to Lakeland but it's not going to be finished. I don't really care what class they put it in, just wondered about the survey thing. (BTW...this will be my first restoration of anything other than a muscle car so who knows, it'll probably be about 10 points shy of a third Jr)

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...we cannot add more classes then it is absolutely necessary so keep that it mind when you see the club's proposed solution. Also recognize that currently only 50-75 VW's are shown...

Steve,

I haven't seen the survey yet, but did want to respond to a couple of lines in your recent post.

First, I *don't* think any VW owners were asking for more classes to be created!

I believe we were (are) asking to go back to the regular production classes where we've always competed within AACA (some of us for up to 25 or more years--speaking of Diane and I with our '54 VW in Class 27A, which we've always loved doing).

The 50 to 75 total VWs being shown nationally within AACA that you mention I don't think need any special accommodations whatsoever.

PLEASE LET THE VOLKSWAGENS GO BACK TO OUR REGULAR PRODUCTION CLASSES, WHERE WE HAVE ALWAYS ENJOYED COMPETING AND SHOWING.

Thank you, as always.

Steve Mierz

AACA Member No. 596580J

Stony Creek, CT

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Tommy the survey only went out to those showing a VW in 2011 and 2012. Right, I can just see a Tommy Nolen restoration getting a third...I sincerely doubt that will happen unless you are trying for a divorce! :D

Steve, your voice is heard but you have other VW owners saying they do not want to go back to production classes. In fact some of those comments were the ones that led to the creation of a small car class. Therein lies the dilemna for the club. Again, we cannot appease everyone but we will listen to the survey results and discuss this in the best interest of the majority of our members.

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The "survey" has hit the mailboxes of a few of us...and there is already a ton of off line discussion. For those of you that won't get the survey...it basically asks if a new class 04C should be created for VW's only, YES or NO (minus the Type 2's for some reason??).

To reinforce what Steve mentioned…I know of no VW owner that is looking for an all VW class, the folks I hear from would like to go back to the Production Classes.

If people vote "no" does that mean VW's stay in 04B, small car class? Where are they Buses going? Why would they be pulled out of an all VW class???

In the letter I got back from VP of Judging…the second paragraph starts as such:

"A brief history behind Class 04 begins in 2010 when members of the following clubs, Metropolitan, Crosley, Morris Minor, Isetta and Vespa, approached AACA. These members were also AACA members felt this would be a tool for possible membership growth for both clubs."

No mention of Volkswagen owners……where are these "pro" small car class VW owners? If you are lurking here...please chime in, state your case.

I appreciate the AACA for taking the effort, time and expense for sending out the "survey"…but, really…this is what has come out of all the discussions and letters... a "yes or no" question?

If in fact there are "other VW owners saying they do not want to go back to production classes"…why couldn't the "survey", which is more like a ballot, reflect all the potential scenarios? Make it a true vote…

Example:

- Establish class 04C - Volkswagens (and if you're going to do this…include ALL Volkswagens)

- Remain in 04B - Small Car Class

- Return all VW's to appropriate Production Car classes

- Don't care!

What happens if we "write in" a selection? Will it be heard? Will it count? With the lack of being able to vote for a; "return to the Production Classes"…We may have had our voices heard but it appears no one is listening? There are posts on this thread (yes, I want back and read them all) as far back as 2011 requesting a return to Production.

Production Class…clear cut, simple, makes sense, and a good historic representation of cars available in a time period. This WILL be reflected on my "survey" (ballot) with a copy of this message enclosed.

I guess what will happen, happens....initial excitement has turned out to be kind of a bummer.

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We would expect that members will remark about their feelings and it is not a take it or leave it survey. It was an idea presented to us and we wanted to hear from VW owners as to how they perceive the idea. Again Ron, I know you are passionate and others are passionate about where you want to be placed BUT you are not everyone. We got the calls from owners saying they were tired of "competing" against the larger productions cars and many felt it put them at a disadvantage for national awards. I have no dog in this hunt and neither does any other member of the committee. We just want to find the optimum solution for the majority of VW owners. It is my understanding that the committee did not feel the vans should be considered "small"! Unless there was a mistake the survey had a place for remarks. We had one VW owner call today and tell us he wants to stay exactly where he is right now. We have had several tell us they want their own class. We have some of you who want to go back into the production classes. Again, it is hard to make everyone happy! The fact is no one is turning a deaf ear to the VW community and all comments on here will be seen and the survey results will be looked at...our judging system has evolved over the years and will continue to do so.

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I Find it hard to believe that owning a VW put someone at a ''DISADVANTAGE'' competing against larger production cars...I see it as a bit of an advantage,If these vw owners would take the time and put some extra effort and passion into the quality of work and have that fine eye for detail and use quality parts(Wolfsburg west) they would have a 380+ point vehicle.I restored my Volkswagen in my Garage,used the world wide web,hit swap meets and talked to many people to achieve senior status of my'65 Beetle and yes I got my first junior @ Hershey in 2010 in 27f with 8 other vehicles competing for there 1st junior status. There are other vw owners here on this thread that put a 110% into there restorations and have amazing detail and properly restored parts as needed to achieve the status of there vehicles and it reflects the passion of what the AACA stands for..that is why I gave up attending all Volkswagen events..as to the survey it is not accomplishing anything,only putting Volkswagens by themselves???Don't understand the reasoning (1938 to 1987+) all in one class,air and water cooled but no type II's..I think I will stick to judging the Volkswagen class instead of showing in it..sorry just my feelings ( o \ ! / o )

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It is my understanding that the committee did not feel the vans should be considered "small"!

Thanks for the explanation regarding the vans. I agree that VW vans should not be considered small. Given that, then it would appear that the vans would go back to the production classes where they used to be if the new VW Class 04C is approved?

Unless there was a mistake the survey had a place for remarks

Yes, the survey does have a section labeled "Comments if needed".

We had one VW owner call today and tell us he wants to stay exactly where he is right now. We have had several tell us they want their own class. We have some of you who want to go back into the production classes. Again, it is hard to make everyone happy!

Based on the survey question: "Establish class 04C - Volkswagens"

By answering "Yes" the survey addresses those who want a new class created for Volkswagens (04C) only

By answering "No" the survey addresses those who want to stay in the "small car" classes (04A&B) where they are

Since my vote does not fall into either of these two categories I did the following:

I Wrote "Neither" next to the Yes/No area and under comments wrote "Please move my Volkswagen back to it's previously assigned Production Class (in my case 27-N)" I also wrote my name and AACA member number on the survey so that it can be accounted for since the letter does not have that information on it. (I realize that would have taken a lot more time and effort so I am glad to write it in myself). Those VW owners who want their VWs to be returned to the Production Classes might want to fill out their surveys in a similar fashion. Hopefully, this response will address the wishes of those who want their VWs moved back into the production classes since the survey did not address this option as some VW owners had hoped and expected.

VW owners should be careful when filling out the survey because if they answer "Yes" or "No" and also write in they want to go back to their old production class doing so may confuse the committee as to the owner's wishes and invalidate their survey.

Just a reminder that the survey requests that they be filled out and sent by January 31, 2013 which is only about a week from now.

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Yes…I know I'm not "everyone"…but I am in contact with a fair number of VW owners that show with the AACA. Many of which are monitoring this issue and have entrusted me (isn't that scary) to speak for them, since we're all in agreement.

so....again, why didn't the "survey" reflect the multiple scenarios? Some members, that received the letter, are probably oblivious as to the overall debate over this issue and seeing the "survey", as it is presented, think it is the greatest idea?? Without ALL the potential options on the table..do you not think this "survey" is a bit tilted?

As it is presented now;

1. The "call in" member got his choice..."staying where he is", which we take as a "vote" of NO. Stay in 04b

2. The "several" that want a VW class…which will be a "vote" of YES. Start 04c

There was NO choice or means to vote for(unless you make a comment); Return to Production Class….hmmmm, just pointing out the obvious.

As you see here, people invovled in the discussion, will be "writing in" that choice…but for those not tuned into the debate…won't think they have a choice! Again…looks a bit tilted.

Steve, you said it yourself, in a post on this very thread, about the pin pointing of classes; "In some cases the only way we could make someone happy would be to have a class like Class 1296, 1974 Buick LeSabre, Red, built in March, PS/PB, AM/FM, floor mats and delivered in Hoboken."

With such a movement to an all VW class, are we not getting closer to that? Production Class > Small Car Class > VW Class?

Again, I know AACA is trying to resolve an issue…wasn't it so much easier when a production car was a production car?

I also don't buy the "tired of competing against the larger cars" argument…nor why the AACA would cater to such a request. There have been numerous VW Junior, Senior, Preservation and Grand National winners…the fact someone is coming up short is no excuse to lobby for their own class, be it a "small car" class or a "VW only" class. What a potential can of worms this could open?? Could you not then argue that "economy cars" and "luxury cars" can't compete against each other within the same class?

I have a feeling I know one of the VW owners that might be looking to move around due to a lack of "award success"…I won't call it out, other than to say…it is a nice car, but was "restored" completely wrong. The VW's that have achieved great success on the AACA show fields, that I've seen, have all been pretty consistently awesome cars.

It took my Squareback MANY years to get a First Junior, being a 19k original miles car (original in paint/interior/engine/exhaust) it has a few dings here and there…competed with all the large cars from 1970…is it Senior worthy? No…I don't think it is (although I wish it could be honored with the HPOF badge as well). But here it is…from the pages of the February 2013 issue of Collectible Car (even got on the back cover)….Note that AACA badge on the front license plate!

post-49045-143141722016_thumb.jpg

Point of this is…if a car is worthy of an award, the class it is in does not matter! It took a few requests for post show judging forms to understand what was going on. These folks that have not met their expectations with the AACA awards…have they requested judging forms, sought input on why they feel they are coming up short against larger cars or are they just asking to move to another class??

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I have no horse in this race but aren't VWs the ultimate "Production" car?

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I have only shown in the driver class and have no plans in changing that, but have always wondered why when a car can fit in more than one judged class the owner doesn't have a choice. Seems like if the owner decides when more the one class fits, everyone would be happy. This first came to mind when they were putting the Crosley Hotshot and Super Sports in the production class instead of the sports car class. Of course now it is in class 4.

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I have been showing my '65 VW in class 27F at Hershey since 1998. I have not been able to make the show every year, but the last year I competed in 27F I received the Preservation award. I have enjoyed competing against the larger cars. I will be writing in "neither" and "I prefer to return the production class"

Harold

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I will take a final stab at this as this issue is not mine to take a position on. I have simply tried to tell all of you that the 21 or so members of the CJC try their best to do things that make members happy and that are sensible for our judging system. The neither try to be controversial nor do they wish to upset people. Conversations occur with our committee members at meets (most of them make the majority of the meets), in roundtable meetings and through letters and phone calls. You guys, for the most part, get to see only what occurs on this forum. Nothing will be tilted...the CJC just wants to find the best answers. Not your answer, not my answer but the one that will satisfy the largest number of our participants. Nothing will get tilted and there is no predisposition to any one answer otherwise we would say to heck with it, this is the rule live with it. That is not what the committee has said.

And Ron, no fair using my words against me! :D If the final solution is to allow VW owners to go back to the production classes maybe you want to handle the complaint letters and calls from those who do not agree? :rolleyes: Relax, the proverbial "overwieght lady" has not sung yet.

Not going to have much time to respond anymore as we are in full mode to get ready for the annual meeting...

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Here's a long overdue reply to my friends in the Volkswagen community.

First off I received my survey in the mail four days ago, and I was struggling with how to response. I asked Pat for a bit of help as she can see the bigger picture a bit better than I can over this. Additionally, since she is not directly involved she will be able to help me formulate a calmer response, and perhaps I’ll respond. I am surprised that the AACA has asked for our opinions, but after two years of complaints, and an almost no show of Volkswagens at Hershey 2012 I guess maybe I should not be surprised.

Stock_Steve, It does matter to me what happens to Volkswagen owners in the AACA. You may recall that I promoted AACA membership to VVWCA members when I was the VVWCA president. I know I recruited several because I have the 'AACA I Got A Member' rewards to show for it. This was back in the 90tys. To say the least I have been extremely disappointed over this issue. I hope that there will be a resolution to this issue that will at least satisfy the majority of us.

QUOTE from a previous RESTORER32 post. ‘I have no horse in this race but aren't VWs the ultimate "Production" car?’ Thank You for reminding me. Volkswagen beetles are NOT limited production or short lived vehicles as were Metropolitans, Isetta’s, Vespa’s, etc. They went into production in 1938 and remained there through 1979 in Germany in their original shape. They remained in production into this century in Mexico. The Volkswagen Bug holds the production record as the most produced car in its basic original form. I’d call that ‘A PRODUCTION CAR’.

My comment ‘Does it matter anymore’ was out of frustration over the whole issue. I feel that a mistake was made when Volkswagens were pulled from the production classes where they belong. Stock_Steve, I understand where you are coming from. And I agree with you that Volkswagens should stay in the production classes. However, a VW only class may be the only solution to this dilemma. After all there are Mustang, Corvette, etc. only classes, and Volkswagens are just as popular as they are. All it takes is for anyone to see how much attention a Volkswagen generates at an AACA national meet. Stock_Steve, you know this. I've seen the crowds your '54 draws when you and Diane bring it to Hershey. Perhaps the AACA Board and members of the CJC should observe this before they make a decision.

QUOTE from a previous VOLXY post. ‘I got my first junior @ Hershey in 2010 in 27f with 8 other vehicles competing for their 1st junior status.’ He received his senior at Hershey in 2011 in Class 4B. At both meets I was the team captain. At the 2010 meet my knowledge of Volkswagens was considered invaluable by my team members when it came time to judge VOLXY’s ’65. Was my knowledge appreciated? 3 team members thanked me for assisting them in the judging process with their questions. Of all the cars in 27f back in 2010 VOLXY’s ‘65 was one of the best when judging ended. The same happened in 2011. In 2011 my overall knowledge of Volkswagens was once again useful to my team. By isolating Volkswagens to a specific class the AACA will limit the judging knowledge needed by AACA judges who would encounter Volkswagens in the production classes. In other words ‘you might end up with the same judges for a Volkswagen only class at any given meet’. That will not be beneficial to either the Volkswagen owners, or the judging community. I keep hearing at judging schools the need for judges to expand their knowledge. I seem to recall that this was a large reason for the founding of the CJE program. Before I became ill I volunteered to create a Volkswagen CJE class. I am still willing to do so, but since I can no longer attend very many meets someone else would have to present it. Volunteers? I have approximately 100 Volkswagen books and service manuals in my library. Additionally, there are dozens of Foreign Car magazines that focused on Volkswagen, lots of sales literature, and many owners’ manuals.

What about Volkswagens in HPOF and DPC? I am wondering where they will fit in. I guess they’ll probably stay in these classes. I supported the changes to announcing of awards for both DPC and HPOF, and the changes to the show field layouts for both classes at national meets. I have difficulty accepting the placement of the DPC, HPOF, and 4’s classes at Hershey. Perhaps the placement of the 4's classes at Hershey can at least be changed for this coming year if the other two cannot. After this issue over Volkswagens is resolved the AACA board should consider discussing with Hershey Region the possibility of changing their show field layout. After all this is the most prominent AACA national meet. As a former Hershey Region member I know how difficult, and time consuming it will be for the people involved if they change the show field layout however, in the interests of providing a show field that is consistent with other national events the changes should be made.

This is my response to the survey that was sent out. I have sent it to AACA headquarters.

Finally, thank you to Steve Moskowitz and the CJC for asking us for our opinions by sending out the survey.

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