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Bill Clark

Moved to Class 04B

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One thought I just had was to have a class just for VW's. Mustangs, Corvettes, Model A & T etc. all have there seperate classes, make one for VW's. Then have the Micro car class defined by wheelbase and HP as has been mentioned many times in this thread.

Why isn't the Auto Red Bug in this class?

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Guys, This is response #127. We're in jeopardy of getting shut down soon on this topic. Lets get our thoughts out to Herb Oakes.

Another comment concerning an individual class for VW's. As Stonefish said 'If I want to see VW's only I'll go to a VW car show. The AACA is not a marquee club, and that is what makes its meets so interesting. I recall former national director Bill Smith stating to me 'That if we all collected the same thing it would be a boring club'. I stopped going to VW only shows because it was boring. Same old same old.

The VW's don't fit a micro car class. Micro cars should have there own class. If that happens then VW's should go back to the production classes.

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The attached plot shows the wheelbase and minimum HP for the cars considered for class 4b. I plotted Horsepower, but the chart would be about the same if I had used wheelbase and cc. From this plot, VW rabbits clearly do not belong in this class. They have a long wheelbase and more horsepower than any of these cars. Its clear that the micro cars belong. These are cars having displacements below 500 cc, but the cars of issue here are the mini cars, those small cars above 500cc. The 2CV has a long wheel base, but is low hp. It belongs. The Met at 45 HP belongs, and at 55 HP (not shown) probably still fits in the group. The VW at 24 HP looks like it belongs, but at 54 HP in the later models (not shown) would not. I'd argue that if one Beetle would not fit in the class, then none should. I think we could use a chart like this to make an intelligent decision about what should fit and what would not.

Bill

Class4b.jpg

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People seem to be tired of this discussion, but let me add a proposal. As I see it, there are three groups of small cars, the micros under 500 cc, minis under 1000 and subcompacts under 2000cc. Many cars get bigger engines as their life goes on, but lets just class them by the smallest engine they had. We could make two classes, under 950 cc and from 950 to 2000. This puts these in the under 950 class

Peel

Isettas

Subaru 360

Citroen 2CV

King Midget

Honda S500

Crosley/Crofton

Honda S600

American Austin/Bantam

Renault Caravelle

Morris Minor

Mini Coopers

DKW

Autobianchi

The 950 to 2000 class (if you want a class for subcompacts) would have

cars like these

Met

Honda Civic

Datsun 1000

Datsun 210

Pinto

Volkswagon

VW Rabbit

Fiat 124

Chevette

Vega

Dodge Omni

Unless there is some comment on this I'll go away and bang on an old fender. Let me know if I can help.

Bill

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Bill, your chart will not work by itself, the class needs a definition. A Model T Ford is only 100 inch WB and 20 HP, doubt you want that here either? Every class in AACA has qualifiers and a discription.

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Class X Micro Cars, vehicles with engines less than 1000cc, as defined by the Vintage Micro Car Club

Class Y A defined list of subcompact cars generally introduced between 1953 and 1978, having between 1000 and 2000cc engines and wheelbase shorter than 100 inches.

I would have one class of cars of 1000cc or less as defined by the Vintage Micro Car Club. In general, this class of car was intended as a step up from a motor scooter, might have two seats and unconventional brakes and steering. You could end it there if that was the consensus and put the Mets and VW and whatever else back in their production classes.

There might be interest however, in a class of vehicles specifically named that were intended as subcompact cars. These cars were introduced with engines between 1000cc and 2000cc, wheelbase shorter than 100 inches, the conveniences of modern cars, like hydraulic brakes, automotive steering, radios, heaters and comfortable seats. These were intended to be used as a second car, were built for economy and are often defined as throwaway cars. This class would include the Met, the VW and early post war Japanese cars and include a group of small cars that responded to the 70s gas crisis. My list of these cars would include these: Met, 1st gen Honda Civic 73-79, Datsun 1000, Datsun 210, Pinto, Volkswagen, VW Rabbit, Fiat 124, Chevette, Vega, Dodge Omni.

Before changing any of the classes, I would review the list of AACA registered cars and ensure that each car assigned to the new category made sense.

Assignment of vehicles would be at the discretion of the VP of Class Judging.

Bill

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Bill, your chart will not work by itself, the class needs a definition. A Model T Ford is only 100 inch WB and 20 HP, doubt you want that here either? Every class in AACA has qualifiers and a discription.

Bill's chart doesn't work but his displacement class break does. The Model T has something like a 2.9L engine clearly above Bills definition.

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Class4x.jpg

Sorry, I should have included a new chart with my last post.

Many of these cars got bigger engines as time went on. I have used displacement of the engine at the models introduction for my chart. Additionally, cars like the Chevette get longer wheelbase with time. I'm making the class selection based on the numbers for the introductory model. I'd be glad to share my spreadsheet and would welcome comments on other cars between 1500 and 2000cc that fit my criteria above but might not be appropriate for the class.

Bill

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Well…my email to Herb Oakes dated 10/4/2011 is either:

A) Sitting in some inbox in cyberspace and will never be viewed.

B) Didn't warrant any type of response….

C) Is being reviewed and changes are in the works…and a confirmation of receipt is coming.

:confused:

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I have not compared it to the 2011 Judging Guidelines but here is the text from the 2012 Judging Guidelines:

SPECIFIED SMALL VEHICLES

(Classes 4a & 4b)

Production vehicles built with a small frame and small engine: named vehicles only. The

vehicles can attract a large audience due to their miniature size; placing them in other

classes can cause them to be hidden from view. This class is still being developed and it is

recognized that there are vehicles that can and will be added to the list of those named with the approval of the VP-Class Judging.

American Austin

American Bantam

Austin Cooper

Autobianchi

Bantam

BMW Isetta

Citroen 2CV

Crofton

Crosley

DKW

Honda S500/S600

Isetta

Iso Isetta

King Midget

Metropolitan

Nash Metropolitan

Morris Mini Cooper

Morris Minor

Peel

Playboy

Renault Caravelle

Subaru 360

Vespa 400

Velorex

Volkswagen

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Yes, there is a change for 2012 to the 4's class. The spelling of Volkswagen was corrected from 'gOn' to 'gEn'. Really brightened my day!:D Hey, Hey Hey, its a start.;)

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Please…please…please tell me someone is looking into this class and the "list" that makes it up.

Here is a photo from the Eastern Spring National in Reading this past May…two cars going for first junior; my 1986 VW Cabriolet and a 1966 King Midget…beside me is the 4A entry an American Austin. They make my car look huge…Does it really make sense for the 86 Cabriolet in this class and not with the other regular production cars from 1986?

This 50's Fiat sedan (second photo) was in with the regular production cars…AACA "small car"?

At least the folks at Reading had the class in a nice location…

And no...this has nothing to do with awards & trophies for me...it has to do with making sense of this class.

post-49045-143138987317_thumb.jpg

post-49045-143138987321_thumb.jpg

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Ron;

For once , I guess I don't want to argue with you. The Fiat definately belongs with the 04-b "small cars" All it would take would be for the owner to write to the appropriate person to have it considered, that is what I did when I was restoring my car. I would guess he hasn't even thought of it. As it turned out 04-b was being formed and it worked for me. As far as the King Midget making your car look huge....it made my Crosley look huge!!! But again, after looking at your car, (and at a similar one in HPOF) I understand your thought that it perhaps belongs with the year class. I wonder about the logistics of seperating models within a marque. Perhaps that is the reasoning. In any case it was a pretty stout group of "small cars" at Reading. I am glad I didn't have to try to measure up to that Isetta and the Beetle that were going for Seniors. What an exquisite pair!!! And Bill Clark with his "beater" Met. I really want to see his top of the line car if that one is a "beater".

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oh come on...argue with me! ;)

If it was my Fiat...I wouldn't want to come into 4B...until their is a true "formula" as to what this class is supposed to be or what it should include, other than a bunch of cars on "the list"...I'd rather be back with my production class, with all my cars.

maybe it should be this...if you wouldn't dare to drive the "small car" on an interstate, it should be in 4B.

Let's fix it...if we have to live with it.

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If it was my Fiat...I'd rather be back with my production class, with all my cars.

I have no dog in this fight, but if you move the Fiat back to "my production class", would there even be another Fiat in that class?:)

Unique cars are seldom on an AACA show field in 2's or 3's. Generally, if you see one, it's by itself.

Wayne

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Hi Wayne...I think you mis-understood, or I didn't make myself clear.

Just to be clear, the Fiat Sedan was shown in class 27C...Production Cars 58-59.

I was just saying, if it were my Fiat(which it isn't) I would rather stay in the class 27C with the all the other 58's & 59's... and not move to class 04B.

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Uh-oh...so, we talked about this very situation(but with VW Single/Double cabs). If 04B is to include ALL Crosleys...how did this little guy get with get with the trucks? So, is there leeway??

post-49045-143139067929_thumb.jpg

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Ron;

I saw the same thing when I looked at the Grand National results. I know the owner. I'll have to ask him why, but I am sure I know his answer will be that he won his senior under 22C so that's what he entered grand national under. I am curious as to know how it was left to enter that way, but I will guess that we can't ask the people who handle the registrations to know every variety of car.

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The "small car class" at this year's (2012) Hershey Fall Meet looked rather moribund (to my subjective perception anyway).

I know we did not bring our '54 VW (we usually register that, and our HPOF Pinto, and make a decision at the last minute which one to bring--since our car trailer only carries one car), but I only saw *one* other VW there. Weren't there usually *several* VWs (I'd estimate maybe 7-10 or so?) in past Hersheys, before this new class came about?

Does anyone know--has the "small car class" at Hershey been growing? shrinking? staying about the same?

I miss showing our VW right in there with all the other production cars of its era (just like the roads were populated back in the day--with all sorts and sizes of cars), in class 27A.

Also, for instance, I thought it was very cool to see that positively superb Capri Blue '59 Bug from Maryland parked in there with all the mixed and various cars within the Hershey 2012 Fall Meet HPOF class this year.

Based on what I saw at Hershey this year, I am not super-excited about bringing our VW to show in the "small car class"...

Edited by stock_steve (see edit history)

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