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Bill Clark

Moved to Class 04B

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@Wayne....funny you bring up that particular Honda. As of now...it wouldn't be in the small car class. That is a Honda Civic, not specified on the list. What is even more intereting...the Honda S500/S600 are. If I had one of those...I would have thought that the sports car class would be for me?

What do you think?

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Edited by Stonefish (see edit history)

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Without making a formula or criteria...there are a hundreds of potential cars that could be just thrown onto a list...and everyone's list of "small cars" would be different.

Ok, Like I said, I'm still buying. So how about a proposal from the VW point of view for criteria and/or years ? From that and the point of view from the Mets and Bantams (and Crosleys and others) maybe we can come up with something workable to present to the judging folks.

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.....Ok, Like I said, I'm still buying. So how about a proposal from the VW point of view for criteria and/or years ? From that and the point of view from the Mets and Bantams (and Crosleys and others) maybe we can come up with something workable to present to the judging folks.

Just my opinion, but the suggestion(s) should come from those involved. AACA members only and only those with a true vested interest in the class. :)

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My proposal...if it ain't broke, don't fix it....send me back to the production years:)

If it comes down to formulas: A wheelbase + B horsepower = small car class "C" AND X wheelbase + Z horsepower = small car Class "Z"....

You're going to make a lot of work for someone to "watch dog" registration to ensure someone is going into the right class. Otherwise...you'll have another cluster on your hands come show day.

What surprises me further is that fact that the AACA wants to add more classes in the first place. Doesn't more classes increase the need for more judges? Always seems to be an out cry that judges are needed.

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Just my opinion, but the suggestion(s) should come from those involved. AACA members only and only those with a true vested interest in the class. :)

Susan,

I see your point and obviously that's who will make the decisions, but by leaving it open to everyone who wants to contribute, don't you think it will spark more interest in the AACA by people who are not presently members and may decide to become one??? While we are certainly a large portion of the hobby, we are not the ONLY people in the hobby. I am president of the Crosley Automobile Club, about 1,000 members nationwide. I would venture that less than 10% are AACA members. I am sure that percentage would be representative of a lot of marque clubs. By trying to get the interest and contributions of more of those folks in shaping this new class, maybe we can get a few more interested in the club. It certainly can't hurt and that "outside" point of view just may point out a few things that will help us make this class better.

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Bill Clark mentioned The Micro Car Club. If I remember correctly the AACA classes that are for the Classics use the Classic Car Club of America's definitions of what a Classic is. Maybe Class 4 should use a similar guide line (at least as a starting point). Let those that specialize in small cars do the hard work.

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Susan,

I see your point and obviously that's who will make the decisions, but by leaving it open to everyone who wants to contribute, don't you think it will spark more interest in the AACA by people who are not presently members and may decide to become one??? While we are certainly a large portion of the hobby, we are not the ONLY people in the hobby. I am president of the Crosley Automobile Club, about 1,000 members nationwide. I would venture that less than 10% are AACA members. I am sure that percentage would be representative of a lot of marque clubs. By trying to get the interest and contributions of more of those folks in shaping this new class, maybe we can get a few more interested in the club. It certainly can't hurt and that "outside" point of view just may point out a few things that will help us make this class better.

Dave,

I just feel that when it comes to actual AACA business, like rules/guidelines and things like changing things about classes, etc. the folks that pay dues to the national AACA should be the ones to help shape the future of the AACA.

That is not to say that others shouldn't express their opinions as they might have some valid input as far as information. But the names on the letter being submitted for consideration of changes should be current AACA members.

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Have been following this discussion for a while now. As an owner of a few Volkswagens, an AACA Member and a member of the current 04B Class I think it is time for me to add my .02.

The following is some Volkswagen Technical Specifications taken from actual factory documents:

WB = Wheelbase in inches, L = Length in inches, W = Width in inches, HP = Horsepower and CCs.

When there are multiple entries for these specs that indicates more than one possible engine for the named model or in the case of dimensions changes to those dimensions over time for that same model.

VW Bus ---- L = 169.3" to 179.5" // W = 67.7'to 72.6" // WB = 94.5" to 96.8" // HP = 36 (1192cc) or 57 (1584cc) or 67 (1970cc) or 82 (1913cc)

VW Beetle ---- L = 158.6" to 160" // W = 60.5" to 62.4" // WB = 70.5" to 95.3" // HP = 36 (1192cc) or 48 ( or 53

VW Rabbit ----- L = 155.3" // W = 63.4" // WB = 94.5" // HP = 48 (1471cc) or 62 (1457cc) or 78 (1588cc)

VW Pickup (1980-84) ----- L = 174.6" // W = 64.4" // WB = 103.3" // HP = 52 (1588cc) or 78 (1715cc)

VW GTI 16V (1987-92) ----- L = 158.0" // W = 66.1" // WB = 97.3" // HP = 123 (1780cc) or 134

This is just a very SMALL sampling of the Technical Specs for Volkswagens that fall under the current definition of this class.

Depending on how this class is actually defined some of these vehicles may or may not belong in this class.

This list also can be used to illustrate that using only horsepower or engine size (cc) and

not taking into account physical dimensions can lead to a misleading, confusing or inaccurate definition of "Small".

Dave A. how about posting up these same Specs L/W/WB/HP for some of the Crosley models? Maybe owners of some of the other cars on this list could do the same?

Some other personal thoughts on this class, etc.

Personally, I believe creating a new class or classes should be done with great care. Creating a new class is a VERY Slippery Slope for the organization tasked with creating, maintaining, supporting and judging that class. As more and more classes continue to be justified and created that will place more of a challenge, burden, etc. to manage, judge, fund/support them. Just look how the original two classes (04A&B) have easily expanded into 4 or 6 classes just in the course of this discussion.

When one compares some of the Specs listed above for VWs one has to wonder how most, is not all of those vehicles can/could even loosely fit a definition of "Small Car" in the same sense as say the dimensions of a Bantam, Isetta, Crosley or any other Micro Car would? My goodness, just the Wheelbase of my VW Rabbit is nearly 3 FEET longer than the total length of an BMW Isetta 300.

The total length of my Rabbit is over 1.5 TIMES as long as the total length of an Isetta 300. The dimensions of the VW Bus and my 1981 VW Pickup make for an even larger disparity when it comes to physical size.

Next let's look at horsepower. The horsepower of my 1987 VW GTI 16V is roughly DOUBLE that of my VW Rabbit (62hp vs 123hp).

When it comes to some other vehicles on the small car list that horsepower difference can be 10 or more times as much when comparing my GTI 16V to say a Vespa. The engine in my VW Rabbit is 1457cc.

While some might consider that a somewhat small engine the physical size of the Rabbit might suggest that it is not exactly "Small" especially when compared to the physical size of a Bantam, Isetta, Crosley or any other Micro Car.

I think Jim Bollman has the right idea when he posted earlier in this thread:

Bill Clark mentioned The Micro Car Club. Maybe Class 4 should use a similar guide line (at least as a starting point). Let those that specialize in small cars do the hard work.

- Consider using the definition of a Micro Car as defined here The Vintage Microcar Club Membership Page

- Consider moving all the vehicles on the current list for Classes 04A&B that do not fit the definition listed above back to the production Classes that they came from

- Consider renaming Classes 04A&B "Micro Car Class".

If a meeting is to be held at the AACA Offices in Hershey concerning this class I would gladly attend if invited.

Sorry for the LONG post but I am playing catch up on this topic.

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The Microcar guidelines would exclude the VW's, Nash Metros, and Hondas among others. It would add Messerschmidt, Gogomobile, and NSU among others. Based on that would there be enough participation left to have a class?? (and should that be a factor here, in my opinion it is not given my understanding for the reason for the class.)

Charlier, thank you for giving the stats on some VW's Generally for Crosley (and perhaps Jim can provide more complete information) L-138-144" W- 48" (track 42") WB 80-85" (except FOR 60" I think) HP 12 -13.5 pre war 26.5 post war 750cc post war.

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I hope VW was not thrown into this class to increase the numbers of potential participants, in order to justify the class.:(

Someone lobbied for this class…it was either a particular group of "small car" owners (and from what it seems, it wasn't the VW population)

Or

It was some "big car" owners, with a some clout that wanted the "small" cars gone.

If it was the "big car" folks…looks as if we'll have to sort out some sort of small car class. If it was a specific group of small car owners…let them have their small car class, but don't drag other marques into it just to fluff the numbers.

Volxy brings up the Pontiac Fiero….it was shown in class 27P….I was looking for it's result with the sports cars?? :confused:

A Honda S500/S600 goes in the "small car" class and NOT with the sports cars…Pontiac Fiero is in with the production class and NOT with the sports cars or "small cars" classes…my head hurts!:eek:

Fiero = Sports Car, Production Car or Small Car ?

Honda S500 = Small Car or Sports Car?

VW Ghia = Production Car, Sports Car or Small Car?

:rolleyes:

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Ok, so it's a Honda, but you can see where there is a place for these cars on an AACA show field near you!;)

Wayne, Superb that a Hondo Civic was at Grand National! There is a place for all cars, trucks, cycles, etc in the AACA. I remember in the late 80tys when only 3 to 4 VW's showed up at Hershey. Now look at how many there are. Years back I heard comments about the VW's at AACA national meets, and some were not pleasant. Basically ignorant! I also noted the crowds that gathered around Joe Alackness' '50ty Cabriolet, and the Mierz's '54 Cabriolet to name a few. Lots of stories being told about previous ownership of VW's, and how much they are missed.

I personally I the idea of a small car class. What is there now is a start, and it just needs some fine tuning.

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CharleR pointed out wheelbases, etc for Volkswagens in a recent post. I'm going to add just a bit to it.

A Volkswagen Jetta is built on the same chassis as a Volkswagen Rabbit/Golf. All VW did was to add a trunk to create a Jetta. Of course the rear window, quarters, etc were changed. Doubt my word? Then get out there, and left up the floor covering in 'ANY' Jetta and you'll see where the trunk was added/created behind the spare tire insert. the VW Rabbit arrived in the USA to replace the Bug in either 1976, or 1977. And the Jetta arrived in either 1980, or 1981. Body parts from the rear doors forward are identical between the rabbits, and Jetta's. As are all interior parts, and mechanical parts. Now hot question of the day. Wheelbase, and horsepower make a Jetta a small car (they are IDENTICAL to the Rabbit/Golf), but by Volkswagen's definition the Jettta is a mid-size car.

The same wheelbase appears on a Karmann Ghia just like the Bug. However, a Karmann Ghia is wider because Karmann altered the bug chassis. Additionally, the body on a Karmann Ghia is longer than the bug.

Other small coachbuilt Volkswagen powered cars that I mentioned in a previous response were very limited production, and they were not authorized by VWAG.

Take a look in a judging manual at the definitions for limited production classes. Using this as a guideline come up with a definition for Class 4A/B.

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Crosley Tread (center to center) is 40" Not sure if tread and track are the same thing. FarmORoad has a 65" WB and can be as short as 96" total length depending on which bed is used. The rest of Dave's number look about right.

It would be nice to know the reasons for developing class 4. Seems like a lot of people want to be in production class. Since cars are not competing with each other accept for being with in 10 points of highest car, not sure why an owner can't choose their class if the car can fit in more than one. An example, the Crosley Hotshot could be in sports class, production or 4B.

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Wayne, Superb that a Hondo Civic was at Grand National! There is a place for all cars, trucks, cycles, etc in the AACA. I remember in the late 80tys when only 3 to 4 VW's showed up at Hershey. Now look at how many there are. Years back I heard comments about the VW's at AACA national meets, and some were not pleasant. Basically ignorant! I also noted the crowds that gathered around Joe Alackness' '50ty Cabriolet, and the Mierz's '54 Cabriolet to name a few. Lots of stories being told about previous ownership of VW's, and how much they are missed.

I personally I the idea of a small car class. What is there now is a start, and it just needs some fine tuning.

As a relative newcomer to AACA, I will bow to Mr. Siegfried's experience and say that it appears that that class 04 is working if it is causing increased numbers of "small cars" to come to National meets. I know that there was a constant group of people around 04 at Charlotte which included a Beetle, Buster Tankersly's Isetta and my Farm O Road so the interest is there. If there are more VW's than before , apparently there are many VW people that like it.

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Dave, this is the first year for the class....and NO ONE had a choice to what class they could be in. If you owned a VW...you were automatically thrown into the O4 class...not because we liked it.

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This is what I'm talking about! Why couldn't the Hotshot be with the sports cars?? It certainly could in my eyes....doing my work with PHA history...I know these little cars were racing all over the hills of PA!

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This is what I'm talking about! Why couldn't the Hotshot be with the sports cars?? It certainly could in my eyes....doing my work with PHA history...I know these little cars were racing all over the hills of PA!

I'm not trying to start an argument here. I'm trying to help find a way to make this class work for everyone involved. Obviously they COULD be, as could, I assume, Karman Ghias. A large part of the total of the 2,498 Crosley Roadsters produced over 4 years ended up racing over hills all over the US after one won the first race at Sebring, so they truely were sports cars. And Beetles and Crosley wagons Could be in production classes and the pickups Could be in commercial or with other pickups etc etc. I am assuming the idea here (among others) was to find a way to increase participation from an increasingly popular area, small cars. Even major concours events have added microcar classes to try to draw more of these very popular (among the public) vehicles. If, as Mr. Siegfried says, more VW's are participating than ever before, it must be working.

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As a relative newcomer to AACA, I will bow to Mr. Siegfried's experience and say that it appears that that class 04 is working if it is causing increased numbers of "small cars" to come to National meets. I know that there was a constant group of people around 04 at Charlotte which included a Beetle, Buster Tankersly's Isetta and my Farm O Road so the interest is there. If there are more VW's than before , apparently there are many VW people that like it.

Dave, thanks for the compliment:D. I've collected, and owned VW's since 1969. However, I still don't think I know all I should about them.

I remember when you came on the Forum about the original Crosley engine made from sheet metal. I saw one of those engines at The AACA Museum Meet last June. It was display only, and NOS to boot.

I like Crosley's they stand out. Actually I like all cars, but small ones are always my favorite. MG Midgets, Austin Heally Sprites, Mini Coopers, little Fiats, etc. Flat out fun to drive. Not real powerful, but quick tight handling is what I like. And of course they're not interstate cruisers.

The AACA Museum has 3 Crosley's, and one is the Farm O Road. They also have a Bantam roadster.

Class 4A/B will get worked out. Hopefully for the good of all involved

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Just a thought. We're now into page 5 with the debate. Let's get some concrete ideas in writting, and send off to Herb Oakes. Just a thought.....

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Offer the class to those car owners that would fit into it (once it is seriously defined)…if they want to move into it, so be it. If they choose to show in production class or sports car class…that's it, they're there for good. :)

Dave A, you have a Hotshot...you'd rather be in a "small car" class rather than the sports cars? How much smaller is a Hotshot from a Sprite or Midget? Just curious.

The one thing that I always liked about showing at AACA events…is the variety of cars. Make a class for "small cars" and it turns out being filled with Volkswagens…..phew, I might as well go to a VW Show. :(

Even for the spectator…it is nice to see the variety of cars that were offered within a production year. Walk down a row and you see all types of cars. A row of Volkswagens, while in the eyes of some is awesome, may be a total turnoff to others. Variety…is good!:)

It is funny...the theories on why this class was created has changed several times since the start of this thread:

1. People were asking for it/complaining for it

2. Level the playing field for the small car, no longer small car vs. big car

3. The fit and finish of small cars isn't comparable to other cars in the production classes

4. Increase participation of small car owners at AACA events.

Each one really has little to no evidence (at least presented here) supporting the creation of the class.

How about a vote: who would rather stay where they were and who wants to move to a new class for small cars?

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I think it would be a very slippery slope to begin allowing folks to decide for themselves which class they wanted to show in. Not sure how one would best define a "small car class" but it seems obvious to me that these cars have much more in common with each other than, say, with a '59 Cadillac in the production class. I also do not think a desire to attract more cars entered into the thinking behind the class. Obviously it's a work in progress. Perhaps the class was created as much for the convenience of the judges as anything else? I think most of us know what we have in mind when we say "small car" even if we can't define it exactly. I could certainly see a separate class for VWs just because of the sheer number of them, much like Corvettes, Mustangs and Model A Fords have their own classes.

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Jim;

Like you I always have loved all small cars. I've had too many MG Midgets and AH Sprites, a Triumph or 2, Fiat 124, 500 and 600, BMW 600 and 700, VW Beetle and Squareback, and somewhere in the area of 30 different Crosleys. My current project is a 48 panel wagon with a running sheet metal engine. I can honestly say that there isn't a small car I don't like. I have attempted to get some definitions down on paper (I was awaiting some VW facts [thank you] and hopefully some statistics from a few others. Perhaps I'll reach out to Jim Janaceck of the Microcar club for some more). I didn't want to be presumptious on this but rather wanted to try for a consensus.

Ron;

It seems to me that the AACA makes the decisions here and wants them to be universal not on an individual owner by owner basis. I think that if an agreement could be reached with the majority of owners supporting it, then the organization would consider it.

As far as Hotshot (by the way, mine is DPC so not important to me what class right now) verses Spriget, I think wheel base is pretty close with the AH/MG being slightly longer overall. Crosley width is much narrower and Crosley is 750 CC 26.5 HP and the MG , if I remember right begins at 998 and goes up from there depending on year to a top of around 1600. If the Hotshot is ever re-restored with AACA in mind, I would much rather be in the small cars because, this being a somewhat social event, I still have a lot more in common with the owner of a Beetle or an Isetta than with the owner of a Ferrari or a Lamborghini. Don't misunderstand me, I have shown at Greenwich Concours in the sports car class with Corvettes, T-Birds, Cobras etc. and had a lot of fun but I share more myseries with a 35 hp car than with a 350 hp one.

As far as a class of VWs, they will dominate the class due to sheer production numbers if for no other reason. For every year except the first 3, VW has had more production than during the entire 11 years Crosley was in production, in fact, I dare say single models in many years were more than Crosleys' entire run (80,000 total). I also think there is so much variety from year to year even in the Beetles that seeing them as a group is fascinating particularly when a knowledgeable owner takes the time to point them out.

I guess if the VW people, in fact, do not want to be part of this class, then someone like yourself should get a petition together and gather signatures of the AACA VW owners, I think that if something like that was presented, the AACA would respond. I, can only speak for me and those Crosley owners I have spoken to. We see a few fixable problems with the class but generally are happy it is there and hope it stays.

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I parked the Hotshot next to a Bugeye (or Frogeye if you please) at the Strausstown, Pa show a few years ago. The similarities in design and styling were obvious. Since the Hotshot came out in 1949 and the Bugeye in 1958, I must suspect Donald Healy of looking!!!

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