Jump to content

Moved to Class 04B


Bill Clark

Recommended Posts

Offer the class to those car owners that would fit into it (once it is seriously defined)…if they want to move into it, so be it. If they choose to show in production class or sports car class…that's it, they're there for good. :)

Dave A, you have a Hotshot...you'd rather be in a "small car" class rather than the sports cars? How much smaller is a Hotshot from a Sprite or Midget? Just curious.

The one thing that I always liked about showing at AACA events…is the variety of cars. Make a class for "small cars" and it turns out being filled with Volkswagens…..phew, I might as well go to a VW Show. :(

Even for the spectator…it is nice to see the variety of cars that were offered within a production year. Walk down a row and you see all types of cars. A row of Volkswagens, while in the eyes of some is awesome, may be a total turnoff to others. Variety…is good!:)

It is funny...the theories on why this class was created has changed several times since the start of this thread:

1. People were asking for it/complaining for it

2. Level the playing field for the small car, no longer small car vs. big car

3. The fit and finish of small cars isn't comparable to other cars in the production classes

4. Increase participation of small car owners at AACA events.

Each one really has little to no evidence (at least presented here) supporting the creation of the class.

How about a vote: who would rather stay where they were and who wants to move to a new class for small cars?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it would be a very slippery slope to begin allowing folks to decide for themselves which class they wanted to show in. Not sure how one would best define a "small car class" but it seems obvious to me that these cars have much more in common with each other than, say, with a '59 Cadillac in the production class. I also do not think a desire to attract more cars entered into the thinking behind the class. Obviously it's a work in progress. Perhaps the class was created as much for the convenience of the judges as anything else? I think most of us know what we have in mind when we say "small car" even if we can't define it exactly. I could certainly see a separate class for VWs just because of the sheer number of them, much like Corvettes, Mustangs and Model A Fords have their own classes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jim;

Like you I always have loved all small cars. I've had too many MG Midgets and AH Sprites, a Triumph or 2, Fiat 124, 500 and 600, BMW 600 and 700, VW Beetle and Squareback, and somewhere in the area of 30 different Crosleys. My current project is a 48 panel wagon with a running sheet metal engine. I can honestly say that there isn't a small car I don't like. I have attempted to get some definitions down on paper (I was awaiting some VW facts [thank you] and hopefully some statistics from a few others. Perhaps I'll reach out to Jim Janaceck of the Microcar club for some more). I didn't want to be presumptious on this but rather wanted to try for a consensus.

Ron;

It seems to me that the AACA makes the decisions here and wants them to be universal not on an individual owner by owner basis. I think that if an agreement could be reached with the majority of owners supporting it, then the organization would consider it.

As far as Hotshot (by the way, mine is DPC so not important to me what class right now) verses Spriget, I think wheel base is pretty close with the AH/MG being slightly longer overall. Crosley width is much narrower and Crosley is 750 CC 26.5 HP and the MG , if I remember right begins at 998 and goes up from there depending on year to a top of around 1600. If the Hotshot is ever re-restored with AACA in mind, I would much rather be in the small cars because, this being a somewhat social event, I still have a lot more in common with the owner of a Beetle or an Isetta than with the owner of a Ferrari or a Lamborghini. Don't misunderstand me, I have shown at Greenwich Concours in the sports car class with Corvettes, T-Birds, Cobras etc. and had a lot of fun but I share more myseries with a 35 hp car than with a 350 hp one.

As far as a class of VWs, they will dominate the class due to sheer production numbers if for no other reason. For every year except the first 3, VW has had more production than during the entire 11 years Crosley was in production, in fact, I dare say single models in many years were more than Crosleys' entire run (80,000 total). I also think there is so much variety from year to year even in the Beetles that seeing them as a group is fascinating particularly when a knowledgeable owner takes the time to point them out.

I guess if the VW people, in fact, do not want to be part of this class, then someone like yourself should get a petition together and gather signatures of the AACA VW owners, I think that if something like that was presented, the AACA would respond. I, can only speak for me and those Crosley owners I have spoken to. We see a few fixable problems with the class but generally are happy it is there and hope it stays.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I parked the Hotshot next to a Bugeye (or Frogeye if you please) at the Strausstown, Pa show a few years ago. The similarities in design and styling were obvious. Since the Hotshot came out in 1949 and the Bugeye in 1958, I must suspect Donald Healy of looking!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

One thought I just had was to have a class just for VW's. Mustangs, Corvettes, Model A & T etc. all have there seperate classes, make one for VW's. Then have the Micro car class defined by wheelbase and HP as has been mentioned many times in this thread.

Why isn't the Auto Red Bug in this class?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys, This is response #127. We're in jeopardy of getting shut down soon on this topic. Lets get our thoughts out to Herb Oakes.

Another comment concerning an individual class for VW's. As Stonefish said 'If I want to see VW's only I'll go to a VW car show. The AACA is not a marquee club, and that is what makes its meets so interesting. I recall former national director Bill Smith stating to me 'That if we all collected the same thing it would be a boring club'. I stopped going to VW only shows because it was boring. Same old same old.

The VW's don't fit a micro car class. Micro cars should have there own class. If that happens then VW's should go back to the production classes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The attached plot shows the wheelbase and minimum HP for the cars considered for class 4b. I plotted Horsepower, but the chart would be about the same if I had used wheelbase and cc. From this plot, VW rabbits clearly do not belong in this class. They have a long wheelbase and more horsepower than any of these cars. Its clear that the micro cars belong. These are cars having displacements below 500 cc, but the cars of issue here are the mini cars, those small cars above 500cc. The 2CV has a long wheel base, but is low hp. It belongs. The Met at 45 HP belongs, and at 55 HP (not shown) probably still fits in the group. The VW at 24 HP looks like it belongs, but at 54 HP in the later models (not shown) would not. I'd argue that if one Beetle would not fit in the class, then none should. I think we could use a chart like this to make an intelligent decision about what should fit and what would not.

Bill

Class4b.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

People seem to be tired of this discussion, but let me add a proposal. As I see it, there are three groups of small cars, the micros under 500 cc, minis under 1000 and subcompacts under 2000cc. Many cars get bigger engines as their life goes on, but lets just class them by the smallest engine they had. We could make two classes, under 950 cc and from 950 to 2000. This puts these in the under 950 class

Peel

Isettas

Subaru 360

Citroen 2CV

King Midget

Honda S500

Crosley/Crofton

Honda S600

American Austin/Bantam

Renault Caravelle

Morris Minor

Mini Coopers

DKW

Autobianchi

The 950 to 2000 class (if you want a class for subcompacts) would have

cars like these

Met

Honda Civic

Datsun 1000

Datsun 210

Pinto

Volkswagon

VW Rabbit

Fiat 124

Chevette

Vega

Dodge Omni

Unless there is some comment on this I'll go away and bang on an old fender. Let me know if I can help.

Bill

Link to post
Share on other sites

Class X Micro Cars, vehicles with engines less than 1000cc, as defined by the Vintage Micro Car Club

Class Y A defined list of subcompact cars generally introduced between 1953 and 1978, having between 1000 and 2000cc engines and wheelbase shorter than 100 inches.

I would have one class of cars of 1000cc or less as defined by the Vintage Micro Car Club. In general, this class of car was intended as a step up from a motor scooter, might have two seats and unconventional brakes and steering. You could end it there if that was the consensus and put the Mets and VW and whatever else back in their production classes.

There might be interest however, in a class of vehicles specifically named that were intended as subcompact cars. These cars were introduced with engines between 1000cc and 2000cc, wheelbase shorter than 100 inches, the conveniences of modern cars, like hydraulic brakes, automotive steering, radios, heaters and comfortable seats. These were intended to be used as a second car, were built for economy and are often defined as throwaway cars. This class would include the Met, the VW and early post war Japanese cars and include a group of small cars that responded to the 70s gas crisis. My list of these cars would include these: Met, 1st gen Honda Civic 73-79, Datsun 1000, Datsun 210, Pinto, Volkswagen, VW Rabbit, Fiat 124, Chevette, Vega, Dodge Omni.

Before changing any of the classes, I would review the list of AACA registered cars and ensure that each car assigned to the new category made sense.

Assignment of vehicles would be at the discretion of the VP of Class Judging.

Bill

Link to post
Share on other sites
Bill, your chart will not work by itself, the class needs a definition. A Model T Ford is only 100 inch WB and 20 HP, doubt you want that here either? Every class in AACA has qualifiers and a discription.

Bill's chart doesn't work but his displacement class break does. The Model T has something like a 2.9L engine clearly above Bills definition.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Class4x.jpg

Sorry, I should have included a new chart with my last post.

Many of these cars got bigger engines as time went on. I have used displacement of the engine at the models introduction for my chart. Additionally, cars like the Chevette get longer wheelbase with time. I'm making the class selection based on the numbers for the introductory model. I'd be glad to share my spreadsheet and would welcome comments on other cars between 1500 and 2000cc that fit my criteria above but might not be appropriate for the class.

Bill

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Well…my email to Herb Oakes dated 10/4/2011 is either:

A) Sitting in some inbox in cyberspace and will never be viewed.

B) Didn't warrant any type of response….

C) Is being reviewed and changes are in the works…and a confirmation of receipt is coming.

:confused:

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...

I have not compared it to the 2011 Judging Guidelines but here is the text from the 2012 Judging Guidelines:

SPECIFIED SMALL VEHICLES

(Classes 4a & 4b)

Production vehicles built with a small frame and small engine: named vehicles only. The

vehicles can attract a large audience due to their miniature size; placing them in other

classes can cause them to be hidden from view. This class is still being developed and it is

recognized that there are vehicles that can and will be added to the list of those named with the approval of the VP-Class Judging.

American Austin

American Bantam

Austin Cooper

Autobianchi

Bantam

BMW Isetta

Citroen 2CV

Crofton

Crosley

DKW

Honda S500/S600

Isetta

Iso Isetta

King Midget

Metropolitan

Nash Metropolitan

Morris Mini Cooper

Morris Minor

Peel

Playboy

Renault Caravelle

Subaru 360

Vespa 400

Velorex

Volkswagen

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
  • 3 months later...

Please…please…please tell me someone is looking into this class and the "list" that makes it up.

Here is a photo from the Eastern Spring National in Reading this past May…two cars going for first junior; my 1986 VW Cabriolet and a 1966 King Midget…beside me is the 4A entry an American Austin. They make my car look huge…Does it really make sense for the 86 Cabriolet in this class and not with the other regular production cars from 1986?

This 50's Fiat sedan (second photo) was in with the regular production cars…AACA "small car"?

At least the folks at Reading had the class in a nice location…

And no...this has nothing to do with awards & trophies for me...it has to do with making sense of this class.

post-49045-143138987317_thumb.jpg

post-49045-143138987321_thumb.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ron;

For once , I guess I don't want to argue with you. The Fiat definately belongs with the 04-b "small cars" All it would take would be for the owner to write to the appropriate person to have it considered, that is what I did when I was restoring my car. I would guess he hasn't even thought of it. As it turned out 04-b was being formed and it worked for me. As far as the King Midget making your car look huge....it made my Crosley look huge!!! But again, after looking at your car, (and at a similar one in HPOF) I understand your thought that it perhaps belongs with the year class. I wonder about the logistics of seperating models within a marque. Perhaps that is the reasoning. In any case it was a pretty stout group of "small cars" at Reading. I am glad I didn't have to try to measure up to that Isetta and the Beetle that were going for Seniors. What an exquisite pair!!! And Bill Clark with his "beater" Met. I really want to see his top of the line car if that one is a "beater".

Link to post
Share on other sites

oh come on...argue with me! ;)

If it was my Fiat...I wouldn't want to come into 4B...until their is a true "formula" as to what this class is supposed to be or what it should include, other than a bunch of cars on "the list"...I'd rather be back with my production class, with all my cars.

maybe it should be this...if you wouldn't dare to drive the "small car" on an interstate, it should be in 4B.

Let's fix it...if we have to live with it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If it was my Fiat...I'd rather be back with my production class, with all my cars.

I have no dog in this fight, but if you move the Fiat back to "my production class", would there even be another Fiat in that class?:)

Unique cars are seldom on an AACA show field in 2's or 3's. Generally, if you see one, it's by itself.

Wayne

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Wayne...I think you mis-understood, or I didn't make myself clear.

Just to be clear, the Fiat Sedan was shown in class 27C...Production Cars 58-59.

I was just saying, if it were my Fiat(which it isn't) I would rather stay in the class 27C with the all the other 58's & 59's... and not move to class 04B.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

Ron;

I saw the same thing when I looked at the Grand National results. I know the owner. I'll have to ask him why, but I am sure I know his answer will be that he won his senior under 22C so that's what he entered grand national under. I am curious as to know how it was left to enter that way, but I will guess that we can't ask the people who handle the registrations to know every variety of car.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 months later...

The "small car class" at this year's (2012) Hershey Fall Meet looked rather moribund (to my subjective perception anyway).

I know we did not bring our '54 VW (we usually register that, and our HPOF Pinto, and make a decision at the last minute which one to bring--since our car trailer only carries one car), but I only saw *one* other VW there. Weren't there usually *several* VWs (I'd estimate maybe 7-10 or so?) in past Hersheys, before this new class came about?

Does anyone know--has the "small car class" at Hershey been growing? shrinking? staying about the same?

I miss showing our VW right in there with all the other production cars of its era (just like the roads were populated back in the day--with all sorts and sizes of cars), in class 27A.

Also, for instance, I thought it was very cool to see that positively superb Capri Blue '59 Bug from Maryland parked in there with all the mixed and various cars within the Hershey 2012 Fall Meet HPOF class this year.

Based on what I saw at Hershey this year, I am not super-excited about bringing our VW to show in the "small car class"...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve, the small car class at Hershey most definitely had far fewer VWs this year compared to last year for a few reasons that I know of.

Some VW Owners are not very happy with the "Small Car Class", how it is defined and how more than a couple cars that should be in this class continue to find their way into other classes. It has been said that this class is a "Work In Progress". That being said, for some the progress in tweaking this class is not moving very fast, if at all. Case in point, no changes were made in 2012 (with the feedback given in 2011) as far as the list of cars in this class or how it is defined. Time will tell if changes are made for 2013 and just what those changes end up being.

Another reason for low VW Attendance at Fall Hershey is the placement on the show field of this class. Some VW Owners think the location literally and figuratively "stinks". Literally speaking, when the wind blows from a certain direction the aroma from the sewage treatment plant down the road can get rather pungent. Last year, the aroma was nearly non-stop when the wind switched directions and the aroma from the port-o-pots nearby added to the challenge of showing a car in this location. Figuratively, some owners last year felt that the location on the field was such that spectators simply walked by their cars because they did not see them on the downward slope next to the one entrance. If I had a $1 for every spectator that told me personally they almost missed the class or searched and almost gave up I could have bought more than couple Crab Cake Sandwiches at $7 each.

This year there were fewer VWs for other reasons as well. I started showing one of my VWs in HPOF this year. Since my Rabbit went to the Dual Meet in TN, I decided that my VW GTI 16V would come to Hershey. I would be telling a lie if I did not say here that part of my decision to show in HPOF was influenced by the aroma in class 04-B that I experienced last year. I know of another owner of multiple VWs that decided to bring his race car instead of one of his VWs. He will probably weigh in here about that at some point.

I also know of another VW Owner who did not show this year at Fall Hershey due to a recent surgery. That particular owner was very vocal at Hershey last year about not caring for the location of class 04-B as well.

For comparison purposes here are the registrations for other AACA Meets in 2012 that I attended for Class 04-b:

- Eastern Spring Meet - Reading, PA: Total Entires = 11 / Total Volkswagens = 6

- 2012 Grand National - SHelbyville, TN: Total Entries = 9 / Total Volkswagens = 6

- SE Special Fall Meet - Shelbyville, TN: Total Entries = 11 / Total Volkswagens = 4

BTW, I spoke to the owner of the only Volkswagen in Class 04-B at Fall Hershey this year. He told me that this would be the last Fall Hershey he would be bringing his VW Beetle to. He has his reasons and will probably chime in here at some point so I will let him speak for himself.

What the future holds for Volkswagens in Class 04-B and at Fall Hershey in particular is anyone's guess. After this year it would appear to be not as bright at Fall Hershey but who knows, things might change. Time Will Tell I Suppose.

On a different note, it was great to see both you and Diane at Fall Hershey this year. I hope to see you both next year.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea, I guess I'll chime in….I thought the crab cakes were $8!?

Otherwise…discussing this issue here is pointless. I mean…everyone knows where I stand….I sent my letter to the VP last year, that went unanswered and didn't spark any type of change. I've brought up these other cases from Reading and the GN event…nothing….

Feedback, right here it is, on this forum…brought to you by the club…a "pulse" of what the members are talking about or concerned with…and no one really wants to put a finger on it. Makes me tired…

If folks want to be in 04b…let'em. If they want to be in with the production cars…let'em.

On another note…I had a great time showing the Superoo this year. The race car folks were excellent…Think I'll stick around 24b for a while! Great Fall Meet!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep..as Charlie stated it "stinks"..the air and the turn out for O4B this year @ Hershey..I was the only Judged vw at the meet this year and i do have to say it "stinks" I remember before this class the numbers of vw's on the field were way better in there respected classes..i hope the "work in progress" gets working instead of "being unemployed" as I stated before the class would be better off having all air cooled vw's seperated into 3 groups by these years 46-57 58-67 68-79..these years were the major changes by vw..I feel this is why so many of our fellow vw members are not participating since the class change..I hope we can get some results solved for 2013..IT REALY SUCKED TO HAVE EVERYONE SAY HOW COME THERES NO OTHER VOLKSWAGENS HERE,there were others registered but no shows..as to our H2O VW owners they should be placed with the production year vehicles,just like the other compact size cars by other makes..omni,chevette,vega,etc..that are in there respected classes..as Charlie stated i most likley won't be showing next year @ Hershey..1. I felt like the GIANT in the class 2.the small turn out in this class 3.the smell 4.Judging..I hope someone gets with us O4B owners and asks us our opinions instead of COMPLAINING here and not getting anything done. :)

Thanx,Rob

Link to post
Share on other sites

I didnt take my beetle this year because I didnt like where they were parking us in 04B last year.

I also sent a letter last year to head of judging asking nicely for an explanation but never recieved a reply.

I guess we'll all have to live with it. I thought it was nice to see cars of the same era all together, regardless of size.

I'll continue to monitor this thread good points all around.

greg kuhnash

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I wrote my letter to the VP of Judging yesterday requesting that I be allowed to show my '54 VW in Class #27A, where it has historically ALWAYS been shown (achieving First Junior, Senior, Grand National, and many Preservations along the way). I am *not happy* with being moved to class 04b.

I really don't care what happens with Class #04b, and if other people are happy there, then that's fine.

As I say, I just want to continue to show my 1954 VW in Class #27A. I will follow up with any response that I may receive from the VP of Judging.

I would suggest that anyone else not happy with having their car moved to Class #04b might think about doing the same. If rthey don't know we're not happy, then nothing will ever change.

It appears that our voicing our displeasure here does not have much effect...

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

I have scanned the letter I received in response to my letter to the AACA VP of Class Judging and will attempt pasting it in below (click on the small image to enlarge it).

I will refrain from adding any editorial comments at this time, but I URGE you to make your voices heard if you are not happy with having your car moved to Class 04B...

post-34222-14313924232_thumb.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone here on the original petition? Anyone here get polled?? :rolleyes:

it seems there are "several members" on here that aren't in favor of the class....I wonder if we can petitioin to have things put back the way they were? :confused:

My letter is in the works...but trying to keep it to one page has been tough!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I just returned home from Hilton Head Island SC, where I participated in the microcar class in the Hilton Head Concours d'Elegance. Hilton Head is the first major concours to have a permanant mcrocar class. During the course of the day many of us who are AACA members were approached by a gentleman who is, shall we say, rather well connected in the upper echelon of AACA judging.(I did not ask permission to use his name so I won't) His primary item of discussion was class 04- . He summarized the discussion that has been taking place and mentioned the letters that have been received and asked for our opinions. It seems he had a total understanding of the situation and the dissatisfaction as has been voiced here. He also hinted there will be discussion at the national meeting in Philadelphia and some possible adjustments in the class are forthcoming. What I am saying is that the complaints are being heard . Keep talking...they are listening!!!

Now on to the microcar class at Hilton Head. There were 10 cars in the class, all beautiful examples of their kind. All of the awards in the class were won by AACA cars. In fact, I was told that many classes were dominated by Cars with AACA pedigrees. A real feather in this organization's cap!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...