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Wire wheels for 1925 master


ROD W

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Hugh:

 My friend Peter with the 1927 Master Sport Roadster said that the hub as you show with the 6 nuts removed should pull straight out like on my wooden wheel set up. So as Bob indicates there may be other issues. As I showed previously my right rear wheel I had to use a puller since the parking brake band was interfearing with the worn undercut inside diameter that left a ridge inside the drum.

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 I believe that instead of the wood wheel hub bore encasing the entire depth of the bearing, on this hub the rear hub mounting plate is what secures the drum with the 2 1/2" nut over the bearing locking it to the outer axle tube.  1/2 of bearing fits in the plate and 1/2 fitting freely in the outer hub.

 

 
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Larry, 

     Thank you for following up and providing the verification that I needed.  Now the problem was how do I get the hub off without damaging the drum.  Like an M&M, it's hard on the outside and soft in the middle.  There is also only one place around the drum that has any support.   This is at the brake band anchor.  You can not use screwdrivers between the 2 piece hub flanges, but the right crow bar will span the gap to get to the outer edge of the drum.  Then pressure can only be applied against the brake band anchor location.  One spot on the diameter of the drum.  So I gave the pry bar a wiggle, and then rotated the drum 180 degrees, and gave it another wiggle.  Multiple passes and it started to separate. 

So the first photo is the important one as it shows the anchor at the bottom of the drum, and the crow bar used.  The wheel hub is the same design as the drive hub on a Master.   

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The back side of the wheel hub is cut to fit the ball bearing outer dimension.  It also has a recess to aligh the 2 piece hub inner half.  Note all the marks inside the wheel hub (photo below).  These are not my marks.  Someone else has been in here, and those look like hammer marks.  All I have done is pried on the flange.  Thinking that there should also be a gasket here, so thoughts on this?  

IMG_3942.JPG.af75a2d65f72c2143ac0923a74d4c151.JPG 

Now to make Bob Pilkies day, The first good photos of the inner hub. I bent back the locking tabs on the 2 1/2" nut.  I used a pipe wrench and a cheater to remove the nut.  Larry tells me that this nut size is on the Master hubcap wrench which I no longer have because I sold it not having a need for it since I own a Standard.  Upon inspection, the star washer was useless as it did not have the inside tab that holds it in place.

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I did not need a puller as the 1310 bearing and then the drum came off without difficulty.  Photo below shows the felt seal.  I really want to go back with a lip seal so if anyone has any recommendations? 

Photo of inside the drum with the oil shedder.  Not sure if this is different than the shedder used on all the other Masters.  Bolts are drilled and cotterpinned in place.     

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Now to the brake drag issue, and I hope this is the entire problem, and it is not a drum run out issue.   The large countersunk screw at the base of the parking brake ends was backed out 7 turns.  The metal end of the band guide had rotated between the brake inner band and the drum.  So the end is kind of worn, and the plate is a little bent.  This is a countersunk screw, so perhaps blue locktite is in order when I put this back together.  If there is supposed to be a lock washer in this, please let me know.    

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The other interesting item is that the parking band is not pulling flat against the square stop when the parking brake is released.  There are 3 guides around and inside the band on the backing plate.  The top guide (second photo below) looks like something inside the drum pushed the guide up on the front side.  The other two guides follow the band curvature exactly.  I will correct this guide, but I don't think it will close the gap at the anchor point, but maybe it will?  That's about a 3/16 to 1/4" gap at the anchor point.  I also noticed that on another guide, two of the brake rivets are not letting the band seat flat on the guide, so I may need to hammer on the rivet a little more.  

So I have my work cut out putting this all in order and back together.  I need to decide if I should go into the opposite side as well as I feel certain I will find gremlins waiting. 

Thank you my Buick friends for helping me with this.  I'd like to say the shop manual was a big help, but no.     Hugh    

IMG_3950.JPG.b49c9e58f5bb9a3bb037bc25f28d7d79.JPG  IMG_3948.JPG.e8422415ab2bb4f686fbae6e5be0de04.JPG

 

   

 

 

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Hugh

The rear wheel was the only application I can think of where the seal was not the same size as the adjacent bearing as it sits in a smaller counterbore.   The rear seal was 72mm x 92mm x 10mm.

this was not quite a press fit so I used some RTV sealant to add some grip inside the bore.  

The wire wheel hub might be different so check measurements first.  

Kevin 

sealinstalled.jpg

72x92x10mmseal.jpg

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Hugh:

 Good to hear of your success! Thanks for the call to verify my suspicions. The right side inner brake on my car was also not seating on the square block. That spring should pull it tight at rest. May take some adjustment of the actuator shaft. That is the side that the band hold down plate with the countersunk screw (1/2"-20 thread)heon mine I was not able to get out. I tried to drill it out but I just wore out drills. The left side screw I was able to drill out without damaging the threads and made a new screw. There is a gasket on my hub and I believe there should be one for this also.

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This was a 1/64" thick gasket. In the photo showing the .020 Brass washer to take up the space from the bottom of the bore being a bit chewed up from the old failed bearing.

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 The shedder and seal arrangement is the same as what is on my wood wheels. 

Edited by dibarlaw
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Kevin, 

    Thank you for the seal information.  I will verify if it is correct for the hub before I order it.  

 

Larry, 

    I will add the 1/64 gasket paper as I feel it should be there as well. 

 

So two fixes so far this evening.  Photo set one is the rear seal overflow tube.  The hole and cavity is completely plugged.  I was able to scrape all this thickened oil and road dirt out. 

Photo set 2 is the inner brake band support block.  I was able to get the band to rest on the square block on both ends.  The major problem actually is that the lower band end sits proud of the support block.  I think the previous owner did tighten the counter sunk screw, and that made the end of the band guide stick out.  This thin band guide was bent as it is mostly a big hole in the middle of steel plate.  I think he thought it was tight, but after appling the brake, the tension was now off of the screw and the screw just kept backing out over time.  My fix is to install an internal star lock washer under the plate.  This will give the added clearance to allow the brake band to move and also apply pressure on the bolt to prevent it from backing out.  I am trying to decide if I will blue lock tight it as well, but I feel the main issue is resolved.       Hugh

Buffalobrakefixesphoto2.JPG.38f0c8a58420f08993e4c2dbb1d33137.JPG   Buffalobrakefixesphoto1.JPG.cd8550bbe73ad6b10f6efb71ef9e2f0e.JPG 

 

 

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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Adding a drawing of most of the inner hub and a photo with the felt seal removed.  These are the dimensions that I could get without removing the hub from the drum.  Dimensions verified as the same rear axle seals as Kevin ordered, so I will be doing the same.      Hugh

IMG_3978Buffaloinnerhubwithoutwheelseal.JPG.6f284947fc7c53be545d40737c905714.JPGIMG_3979Buffaloinnerhubdimensions.JPG.57906831cba2dc8144dc39bd4a399a46.JPGIMG_3979Buffaloinnerhubdimensions.JPG.57906831cba2dc8144dc39bd4a399a46.JPG

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  • 2 weeks later...

Finally getting to installing the rear Buffalo hub as I needed several parts.  I did use blue lock tight on the 1/2-20 countersunk screw that holds the parking brake band as a preventative measure.  Someone really beat on the inside of this wheel hub and I don't really know why.  Damage all appears to be on the outer hub section.  Hammering got into the mating flange and I was just barely able to clean it up with my whizzer and not have to remove the axle.  I protected the internals from getting grinding bits into the hub.      

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I did replace the felt seal with a double lip spring seal.  The seal should have really been installed in the opposite direction, but there would be no way to ever remove it, so I installed it where it could be removed.  It did require 2 wraps of electrical tape, and I also used RTV sealant to hold it.  The 1/64 face gasket was missing as well so I made these.  I had to use a heavy gasket sealer bead due to the heavy beating that the hub had on the mating face.  I did clean the bearing and Mark Kikta provided the replacement special tab washer.  

So the odd thing with these Buffalo wheels - the outer bearing race is held in the drive hub.  On a wood spoke, the outer bearing race is held in the spoke wheel hub, and the drive hub is just a flange.     

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Threads on the 6 studs were OK but marginal so I was careful with tightening to prevent stripping one.   

So after assembling everything, on a Buffalo wheel car, the brake band can be installed after the drum is on, if installed in the proper order.  Installing the two 5/16 bolts first.  You can't do this with a wood spoke wheel, and it would still be easier if the band is installed prior to installing the drum.       

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This photo shows the crushed brake release spring and the replacement spring stock that I am using.  Buick part number 169131.  For both Standard and Master!  This Hillman spring is a good match and just needs to be cut to length.  Bought at the local Ace Hardware store.  Now I am on to fixing the brakes on this car as it has a lot of rusty clevis pins and the brakes are low and the pedal does not return properly.

Hugh        

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I find it’s strange how the front hubs use 12 bolts through the brake drum to the hub and the back only uses 6. As a machinist I would say 12 bolts would be better than 6. 

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