58 Buick rear drive train Questions

[Roadmaster75]

Greetings Buick Folks,

I'm new here , but my BCA #2954 says I've been wrenching these beauties a LONG time...!

Sorry for the verbose questions here, but I need some help.

I'll share my mobile number, too if that is a better method of communications for you experts on this topic.

Long time rear u-joint clunkng ( I hope that's it..) has gotten really bad now... So, the time has come to remove the

entire rear axle assembly from the car and assess what's what under there.

Even though the clunking sounds like rear u-joint and is coming from that area, I decided

to do a major overhaul of the rear drive train. To that end I have acquired an entire

rear torque tube assembly with the shorty front and rear drive shafts, long splined shaft, a new torque ball

kit from CARS, Inc., a new drive shaft bearing; AND.... a complete replacement rear differential

from a 58 Roadmaster75 just like mine. And, New rear springs while I'm down there!

I did this just in case the "clunk" ends up being

a fatal rear differential problem...instead of just the u-joint.

So, I have everything I need to put it right (I hope).

I have some questions before tearing into it, with the shop manuals as a guide...

1.) Can anyone share experiences in removing the upper and lower spring clamp bolts? Are they left hand threads?

Even tho this car only has 39,000 miles they look very permanent! I hate the thought of

breaking the studs or bolts holding the spring perches on....... I'm thinking of simply taking off some of the weight of the

car to neutralize spring pressure and carefully cut off the old springs; then carefully cut off the nuts

so as not to injure the studs..... Any advice?

2.) When re-inserting the entire rear axle assembly into the splined output of the torque ball

what level of difficulty is there in correctly lining up the "Keyed" splined shaft?

You can't just "slide it in" apparently.... Manual warns that it only goes in one way!

It seems that the huge bulk of the entire rear axle assembly will be difficult to

navigate precisely in the keyed orientation of that splined shaft.... Any experiences to share??

Or, advice?

3.) How difficult is it to remove the front drive shaft yoke once the torque ball is removed?

I have the spare unit with a new u-joint and thought I'd replace that , too while I have this

monster all apart. Shop manual says it's just one bolt that you loosen with a thinwall socket

right through the yoke...

I'm thinking this whole torque tube drive train thing is the curse of Buicks!

I would happily rather rebuild the motor than do this, but I wish to get it right, so thanks in advance for any

advice, help, guidance, or moral support!

Mike "Roadmaster75"

1958 RoadMaster75

[Caballero2]

I cannot answer all your questions, but would warn you to check your new springs against the old ones for free length. I bought new reproduction springs for my '57 and the car sets about 2" too high in the back. I have pulled the new ones and am in the process of re-installing the old but good ones. When put side by side, the new ones are about 2 3/4 inches longer than the original.

The front yoke is held to the tail shaft by a single bolt, lock washer and heavy flat washer. Note that the bolt is drilled to provide lubrication for the yoke. Remove the bolt, slip the yoke from the tail shaft.

Note that the yoke has marks on the hub to allow for proper alignment of the yoke to the drive shaft. I rotate the yoke to the position that the two marks are vertical. Then I rotate the drive shaft so the indicater hole in the spline is straight down. Using two bolts with the heads removed and screwdriver slots cut in the end, thread these into the yoke at 180 degrees apart. place the gasket over the studs. Then with the help of the better half, next door neighbor or the first kid riding by, move the rear end assembly gently over the guide studs while asuring that the indicator hole is aligned with the mark on the yoke. seat the seal into the yoke and insert the capscrews in the two remaining holes of the yoke. Remove the guide studs and install the other two screws.

Dan

'57-76C

'57-56R

Edited November 9, 2010 by Caballero2
Added photo (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Mike

"a new torque ball kit from CARS, Inc."<==send that back! The outer torque ball retainer from that company is junk. The rubber is not compatible with oil and will swell and separate from the metal. Try Bob's Automobilia (there are others that have been mentioned here previously).

All of my springs came off easily---maybe because they were coated with oil from transmission and engine leaks. If yours is not leaking it must be defective.

Willie

[Roadmaster75]

Thanks for the helpful insights, Cabellero2!

Your comments on the springs are right on. Have seen a lot of old car restorations where the car ends up sitting way too high......

I ordered mine from Eaton Detroit... They asked me if I wanted "Standard" or "heavy duty" springs for the replacement... I ordered

"standard"... I'll be sure to check the heights side by side and review the spring rates with Eaton, before installation.

I have one question on the rear end installation description...

You refer to an "indicator hole" on the front end of the splined driveshaft.....

I have no such indicator hole in mine..?? But,

I've scribed marks for the two "wide splines" on both the yoke and the drive shaft hoping to visually be able to see them mate as the rear end assembly slides over the headless guide bolts ..... Also,Does the end of the shaft protrude enough from the tube to be able to visually "coax" it into the correct spline orientation as it slides over the studs?

Thanks a heap!

[Roadmaster75]

Thanks, Old Tank!

Appreciate the heads up on the torque ball.... Don't want to go thru all this

and have it fail....! My spring clamps and bolts are all dried and scaly...

So, I've been regularly squirting them with "Blaster" in anticipation of fighting them one day.

I read in a forum elsewhere that these nuts and bolts that clamp the upper and lower spring clamps are left hand threads... Is that your recollection....?

Appreciate your help!

[buick5563]

I know that they are right hand thread on a 55. I don't know on a 57. Soaking them should work.

[old-tank]

I know that they are right hand thread on a 55. I don't know on a 57. Soaking them should work.

What Mike says. If no joy try heat. If not changing springs only the bottom needs to be removed.

Willie

[Caballero2]

Keeping in mind that my info is for a '57, the attached photo shows what I was referring to.

Dan

[Roadmaster75]

Dan,

Thanks for pic....

Turns out there IS a difference between the 57 and 58 driveshaft markings.

That's what threw me....

The same section in my 58 shop manual describes the mating of the spline marks differently, not the "hole" as in the 57 manual.... (and, the picture is different.) I have learned much in the last two days!

Thanks....Really helpful stuff...!

Mike

PS I may just take a lot of digital pics of the process and share them. This whole rear end/torque tube, torque ball, subject seems to get to be a black art.

[Roadmaster75]

What Mike says. If no joy try heat. If not changing springs only the bottom needs to be removed.

Willie

Willie,

Heat is our friend when restoring the oldies...!

I may break down here soon and buy a plasma cutter to

round out the ancient acetylene torch. I'm replacing the springs so I gotta

remove all of the nuts....

Mike

:eek:

[buick5563]

Cool tool,

Just don't cut your car in half unnecessarily. It's been done before!

Mike,

Please take a lot of pics, as this is a subject that comes up often here.

Start a new thread with a heading of torque ball replacement, and your thread will live forever...

[Roadmaster75]

Thanks MIke

Yes, I've had unintended consequences of burning metal in the past...nuff said.

I'll keep the digital camera at hand when the job commences....

And will start that thread.

Will advise when the job begins... probably in week or two.

Waiting on the drive shaft shop to install new ujoint and press the big bearing on; then check the balance.

Mike

[bhclark]

I too installed rear springs from Eaton. The ride height is correct, but I'm not happy with the stiffness of the springs. It could be that I need to upgrade my cheapo shocks, but I would opt for the heavy duty next time.

I had no trouble removing the mounting bolts, other than I was using jack stands so my back still hasn't forgiven me for the 2 days I spent inside the wheel wells.

I look forward to your thread, as I need to do a full update and replacement on the torque tube on my '59 as the pinion seal appears bad. I lose differential fluid into the torque tube.

I've also got a very slight rear wheel seal leak that scares me to death reading the shop manual. I don't even know what some of those words and tools are!

[Roadmaster75]

Brian

Thanks for sharing the Eaton rear spring experience .... Will advise how it turns out.

I agree, that the whole rear drive topic is scary.... It's one of those areas that

require attention so seldomly that we just hope nothing bad happens back there!

When it does, that's where these forms are Soooo helpful.

Mike

[Caballero2]

Check AACA General Discussion - Technical - Dropping 1957 Dynaflow...

I have described the exercise that I went through to remove and replace the transmission. This exercise including going back to the original springs.

Dan

'57 - 76C

'57 - 56R

Edited November 11, 2010 by Caballero2
updated title (see edit history)

[JoelsBuicks]

Mike, rear end and/or u-joint clunking after 39,000 miles just doesn't sound right to me. I wonder if there is a way for you to better pinpoint the problem before you take this thing apart. Did you try running the car with the rear wheels off the ground?

Not too long ago, I dropped the rear end out of my '60 to fix a tranny leak. I have no idea if the 58 is like the 60 but I'm sure there are similarities. This was not an easy job but a couple things really helped. One was a good friend who quickly handed me every tool I asked for and the other was getting the car frame about 21 inches off the floor. Do make sure that your car is very well supported before you crawl under it.

[Roadmaster75]

Joel

I didn't think it was right either... I did run the back wheels with the car off

the ground while it was on the lift. It is in fact clunking right in front of the

pinion spline. I believe that the pre-mature failure might be do

to the fact that the car was not moved or started for 18 years; until I bought it

in 1989. I think there is a good chance that those little needle bearings

got corroded sitting in one spot all those years ( in northern Illinois in a

dank garage ).

Thanks for the advice...! Luckily, I treated myself to a 7000 pound lift a couple of years ago. If ever a guy needed a lift for a job...it's this one! I'll still need

a buddy or two, tho...

mike

[Roadmaster75]

Check AACA General Discussion - Technical - Dropping 1957 Dynaflow...

I have described the exercise that I went through to remove and replace the transmission. This exercise including going back to the original springs.

Dan

'57 - 76C

'57 - 56R

Dan,

Excellent description of the process.... Thanks for the write up.

And, I compliment you on the nice, clean under carriage!

Mike

[Caballero2]

Mike, thanks for the kudos.

Dan

[Roadmaster75]

Hello Folks

Well, I finally began the process of removing the rear axle assembly from the 58 Roadmaster. All preparations were "by the book" (shop manual instructions 6.4)

Currently the entire assembly is free of springs, shocks, radius rod, brake lines, and emergency brake cables.

The problem in short is that it WILL NOT slide out of the the torque ball.

It moved roughly 1/8" on the 3" inch pins (per shop manual) and will not move any further.

I can wiggle the whole thing side to side and jack it up and down, while it's sitting on the floor jack. I also hooked a ratchet strap around the pumpkin and the other end hooked on the frame near the bumper bracket to exert a bit of rearward force while jostling it around...to no avail. I even put the wheels back on the rear end and lowered them to the deck and tried to roll the assembly on the wheels....won't budge.

I'm stumped. I must be missing something, OR something is amuck in there... Any ideas ?; before I get out the plasma cutter and saws-all?

Did I mention that this thing is HEAVY! I assumed

that the sheer mass of the unit would cause it to easily slide off the torque ball splines. I've come to expect the unexpected! (I am taking lots of pics as I go along for sharing.)

Thanks

Mike

Roadmaster75

[Roadmaster75]

A quick additional question on getting this thing free......

Has anyone actually had to disassemble the rear axle assembly from back to front in order to remove it? I hope it doesn't come to that!

Thanks!

mike

[JohnD1956]

Mike, Do you have any pictures of the undercarriage before you started removing anything? I have never had a 58 but if I understand your posts correctly you have a two piece driveshaft and a universal at the rear axle all in a torque tube? I just can't picture this.

But if you have not tried wrenching the rear end with the comealong while the wheels are on the ground, I'd give that a try. I'm thinking the angle of the drive shaft is causing the unit to bind at the rear of the transmission.

[Roadmaster75]

Thanks, John

Makes sense on the binding diagnosis......

Good point on the angle of attack on that shaft. Although I have tried the come along with the wheels on the ground, I'll try doing that again at various angles

using a transmission jack under the pumpkin.

Yes, the driveshaft is one long piece that is plined at both ends... each end

inserts into smaller, U-jointed female yokes (couplers as I call them).

And, everything is enclosed in the outer tube; from the trans back to the pinion

shaft on the Diff.

Mike

[bhclark]

make note of your removal angles. The perfect angle is even more important when putting it back together.

[NTX5467]

IF you're going to compare the "free length" of coil springs, you might ALSO take note of the wire gauge (diameter) of the particular coil springs. It's very possible to have springs with different free lengths that will have the same "ride height" when in the vehicle due to the wire gauge differences alone. This becomes very obvious when you look at the spring charts (for replacement coil springs, as from aftermarket replacement sources as NAPA and similar).

I've noticed that many restored cars I've seen which have had the Detroit Eaton springs on them, replacing the originals. In many cases, they appeared to have a higher ride height than I recalled the particular cars having. If you have any questions, you can consult print photography side views of similar vehicles. Generally, there is a particular relationship between the "line" of the rocker panels as it extends to the center of the wheel covers . . . for almost any vehicle built back then, especially cars. Regarding spring replacements on new vehicles, GM would not pay for spring replacements until the cars had some age of them, like several months so everything could "settle out".

When I saw those restored vehicles (with the Detroit Eaton springs), after I looked at the relationship of the rocker panel/moulding to the center of the wheel covers, it made me wonder if we might have become too accustomed to seeing cars with "sagged" springs, thinking that was correct rather than how the cars sat when they were really new. In some cases, though, they did look about 1/2" or so too high.

Good luck on your noise issue!

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Roadmaster75]

Jan 23 Update:

Have rotated, pulled, pushed, pulled the rear axle assembly to no avail.

It will not budge beyond what you see in the photos (link below).

Nothing is attaching it other than the front splined shaft in the torque ball.

As you see it is resting on a transmission jack; no springs in the way.

You'll see a chassis angle gauge on the torque tube. I use this to match

the angle of the transmission as a starting point. Then, I raise it it a degree or two or lower it a degree or two, etc; while pulling it at the rear with a come along and ratchet straps in order to pull it evenly rearward. Pulling these as tight as I can, then tapping the tube with a hammer or nudging with a pry bar has resulted in a total of about 3/16" rearward movement.

What could possibly be capturing this shaft so hard? Will try again when in a better mood, but if it won't budge I am considering dis-assembling the rear end from the short piece of torque tube, drive the rolled pin out of the rear

U-joint and remove it. I would then bolt a slide hammer to the four

bolts at the rear of the long tube section and have at it.

Will keep the group updated, but this is the nightmare scenario for Buick torque tube owners in my opinion. Hopefully, I have pasted a link here correctly. Let me know if you can see them....

Thanks Team!!!

Mike

MobileMe Gallery

[old-tank]

Yikes! It's bad enough to crawl around under these things, but when they don't cooperate...

From the pictures it looks like you can try my method (on 55's) on your 58. I hook a loop of chain around the torque tube just in front of the strut rods. Then put a bumper jack (without the base) into the pocket of the X-frame and the lifting hook on the chain. A bottle jack or portapower could be substituted if available.

Willie

[Roadmaster75]

Well, Old Tank

Great idea....

I picked a 2 ton bottle jack of correct size and got it in the pocket of the frame and started to gently jack it against the big bracket

for the strut rods.... A couple of pumps (3/4" or so) and i noticed that it was pulling the entire trans and engine back off the rubber mounts! But, no

movement of the torque tube rearward!

Gently Tried it again at several different up/down angles..... same thing.... I don't want to destroy the Flight Pitch mounts or the engine mounts.

Will fool with it some more, but, this is looking like some sort of catastrophic failure of the splines of the drive shaft and U-jointed coupler behind the

torque ball and retainers.

I'm thinking that dismantling the whole thing, back to front, is my only hope at this point.

OR,

A.)

I have a whole replacement torque tube, drive shaft, Ujoints, rear end, etc ready to use if I have to destroy this one to extract it from the trans.

A saws-all with a few extra blades should go thru the torque tube and drive shaft...

B.) Surgically cut it off with a plasma cutter

:-(

:confused::mad:

mike

[bhclark]

apply a little heat at the area of the splines maybe?

[old-tank]

Mike

You might try removing the outer torque ball retainer, then cut up the inner torque ball retainer to get to the universal joint that must be destroyed somewhere along the line to get it all apart.

Willie

[Caballero2]

Before I destroyed anything, I think that I would try to use that 3/16" gap to get some penetrating oil on the shaft splines. I would rotate and reoil every couple of hours and try to budge it with a small prybar on each side of the torque ball flange after each application.

Dan

[Roadmaster75]

Thanks Guys

I will exhaust all these good "non destructive" methods first...

THis all started innocently enough with a noisy ($20) rear u joint!

Oh well, I decided to walk away from it for the remainder of the day.

If the non-destructive methods don't budge it. I will begin to

dismantle it from back to front. Plenty of room to drop the differential

with the axles in and brakes on, once it's been unbolted from the

big end of the torque tube and slid back off the pinion shaft.

Then, I should have access to the rolled pin that connects the rear U joint

coupler and remove that. That should allow me a bit more jostling room

on the long torque tube; without the extraordinary weight of the diff and axles hanging off it.

This group is the BEST...thanks to all, as this adventure

in old Buicks unfolds!

Mike

[bhclark]

Old Tank may be right. It's possible you accidentally bent that u-joint with your first attempt at removal, or it's coming apart on it's own causing a bind.

[old-tank]

Mike

Walking away is always a good thing.

I think you have pulled on it enough, since you are pulling on the output shaft of the transmission with the possibility of doing some internal damage. We know that the driveshaft splines are stuck in the universal joint, so that is where need to direct your attention.

Willie

[JohnD1956]

Is it possible the pumpkin is hitting the panhard bar? I can't tell from the pictures but it looks awful close.

Also it may be an optical illusion but the drive shaft looks bent in picture # 37. If you follow Willies method, can you then lightly rap on the driveshaft to see if it will free up? I would not hit it hard, and I would try to rotate the assembly in between hits.

Edited January 25, 2011 by JohnD1956 (see edit history)

[Roadmaster75]

Thanks John

No, the bar is loose at both ends and not hitting it.

The problem is that the front splines are frozen to the coupler behind the torque ball.

Other than U joint noise... the car drove perfectly before this nightmare

unfolded. The tube is not bent..might be the wide angle lens distortion.

I may actually hook up the springs and shocks and start the motor and shift it into reverse carefully and back forward to see if that might unstick it.:eek:

Thanks!

mike

[JohnD1956]

Since the car ran good before, I imagine the process of rocking it may be of little effect. One other thing I wonder about is pulling the axle out from both ends like in the one picture you have. Since you have tried everything else, I might recommend reconnecting the panhard bar only and raising the axle slightly. The remove the panhard bar completely from the frame side only, wrap a tow chain from under the axles up over and around the front of the pumpkin and hook it to one comealong straight back to the frame. I'd put a board or piece of plywood between the tank and the comealong cable to protect the tank just in case. Then try to pull it out straight.

[Roadmaster75]

I'll try that, too....

I'll be hitting the problem again this weekend...

MobileMe Gallery

In the meantime I thought I'd share these detailed pics of all the replacement pieces that I have prepared to install ...... once the offending driveshaft

is removed.

As you can see, I have a backup differential (don't think I need it, but I couldn't resist buying it), a complete torque tube assembly with driveshaft and front and rear U joint assemblies. THe U joint assemblies have been prepared with new U joints, and bearing ( big one at the rear). All of these parts came from the same car (another 58 Roadmaster75). Also, a new torque ball seal, seals, gaskets, shims , springs, shocks, etc are waiting, too.

I thought I'd share the pics of nice clean parts in an exploded view to give

those considering this job... a notion of what to expect. The part (still in the car) that is "offending" at the moment is the forward splined end of the inner driveshaft (poking out from the torque tube). It is stuck (HARD) in the inner splines of the U joint coupler pictured just ahead of it. For the record, these replacement pieces slide effortlessly on...and off. No binding.

If you look closely you'll see I've marked the alignment splines. They MUST be aligned or the parts will not mate. The rear splined end is affixed with a rolled pin through the shaft.

So, these parts lie tantalizingly on the floor next to the disabled Roadmaster75, awaiting their turn..... More later, Lads...!

Mike

MobileMe Gallery

[Roadmaster75]

Greetings Torque Tube Enthusiasts........

Here's my sad update ....!

It is obvious that the forward portion of the shaft is still trapped inside

the coupler (U-joint) behind the inner retainer.

Since all my problems started with the clunking in the rear U-joint, I decided to make good on my threat to dismantle the rear axle assembly from the rear and remove the short-fat portion of the torque tube that attaches to the Differential. So, the whole Differential is free and sitting on jackstands under the car!

This was remarkably easier than I thought. Six bolts hold the short section on at the diff. and 4 bolts attach it to the long section of the torque tube.

I simply disconnected the strut rods from the tube and rolled the entire rear axle assembly rearward. THe splines slipped right off the rear (shorty) drive shaft. Once free I removed the short section and found that the yoke at the rear of the long section of the torque tube had broken! THis caused the rear U-joint to then disintegrate inside the tube. I took out the pieces, drove out the rolled pin holding the broken yoke to the end of the splined shaft.

I have attached photos below.

I had purchased a rear drive shaft (U-joint and all) from an identical 58 Roadmaster75. Side by side they are identical in dimensions, but are visibly different in design. The yoke part numbers are identical. Apparently, Buick had two different styles they used in 58.

MobileMe Gallery

SO that's question Number 1..... Anyone see any problem in using the replacement shaft (the one on top is the new one that has a new driveshaft bearing, Ujoint, and yoke assembled. It appears to have a balance weight at the rear portion, too)

The one I removed is on the bottom photo that has a welded tube construction as opposed to a billet shaft.

Now, for the REALY bad news. The shaft in the long portion of the tube

will still not come out! I have unbolted the torque ball retainer. I can rotate the shaft, wiggle it, etc. but it ain't coming out of the rear of the coupler that sits behind the inner torque ball retainer. It has been suggested to cut off the inner retainer to get to the coupler. Keep in mind, that this coupler is attached to the transmission output shaft with a 3/4 inch bolt. You can't get to that bolt without removing the shaft!!

I am also thinking of actually cutting off the shaft just behind the torque ball.

At least I'd be able to remove the trans, get it on the bench and get access

in all dimensions. I have a new coupler with a new Ujoint ready to go, as well as a new drive shaft.

The other strange thing is that the trans is in PARK, but I can rotate the shaft.

It makes no bad noises and feels nice and smooth, but shouldn't it be locked up against the PARK pawl inside the trans??? Could all that rearward pressure from previous attempts to remove the shaft have caused the PARK pawl problems?

One last thought on all this...... Since I have found the original problem and have all new parts to fix it... I am thinking of simply putting it all back together! I have all new springs, shocks, hardware, etc. and had no other issues before. At this point I could probably reassemble everything in a couple of hours. Worst case is that something else crops up and I have to

drop it back down and destroy the shaft/inner retainers,etc.

The trans was fine, as was the differential when all this started.

Thanks listening!!

Mike

[Caballero2]

The pawl is probably broken off. Now that you have gone this far, I would suggest that you repair that also. But you will have to get the driveshaft free from the front U-joint yoke. Your suggestion that you cut the torque ball free of the assembly may give you enough room to cut the yoke free of the transmassion. Then you can get at the bolt holding the yoke to the transmission spline. After removing that bolt, you should be able to extract the U-joint from the transmission. You should be able to see into the transmission and see the parking pawl.

Correction: You will be unable to see the Pawl because the bearing is obstructing the view. It would be necessary to remove the tailshaft housing. This must be done according to the service manual.

As far as the billet short driveshaft is conserned, service bulletin p54 for 1957 states that there were two shafts produced. One was by Saginaw and the other by Spicer different steel washers were used. On my '57 I have replaced the tube type with the billet with no problem. I hope that this helps. - Dan

Edited February 21, 2011 by Caballero2
Correct bad info. (see edit history)