Judging standards

[Shop Rat]

many use the dpc class just to get a parking spot at hershey.

That is better than the guy years ago that put a rattle trap, filthy inside and out car in the judged class I was Team Captain for at Hershey. He never cleaned any of the junk, broken pieces of cinder blocks and wood scraps, out of the trunk. He flung his flea market pack on his back and never looked back. Seriously, I am not sure which one was more filty, him or his car.

Even the now late Ron Barnett agreed after my description of that mess that visual judging was not out of line. My team and I walked around the car like we were judging it, but with 90+ heat and it being the last car and not going to win anything I pulled the plug on torturing my team. Sometimes logic just has to be tolerated. And Ron agreed.

Edited January 22, 2011 by Shop Rat
type-o (see edit history)

[Dynaflash8]

Susan,

I don't see your registration for Homestead yet. Come on, it's warm, and that is sweet new in W.VA in March. We need you and your hubby.

[junkyardjeff]

many use the dpc class just to get a parking spot at hershey.

If the vehicle fits the description and criteria why not,you can have the trunk full of food and drink so you wont have to pay the stupidly high prices the food vendors charge and dont have to walk very far to put your new purchases plus the local club or who ever puts it on will benifit from the extra money from the admission charges.

Edited January 21, 2011 by junkyardjeff
added something (see edit history)

[Shop Rat]

Susan,

I don't see your registration for Homestead yet. Come on, it's warm, and that is sweet new in W.VA in March. We need you and your hubby.

Thanks for the personal invitation Dynaflash8 but early March is still not the time to be driving an RV out of W. Va.

We made the mistake several years ago of traveling late in the season and it snowed bucket loads of snow in the Beckley, W. Va. area (where there are several ski areas) and actually had to follow a salt truck to get out of that. It really was scary as the roads were very slick but we had no choice but to keep going. The salt damage to the rig was extensive so we don't make plans to travel any earlier than late March or early April.

I hope you have a great Meet.

Edited January 22, 2011 by Shop Rat
Type-o (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

Susan and Matt are you going to help us judge at Homestead? Come on down!!~

Earl,

I am not sure yet, but I hope to be there. I will have a better idea in the near future and hopefully will be able to make it.

[junkyardjeff]

Since I am a member of the VCCA I looked through their judging guidelines on line and I dont know who is more nutty,the VCCA or the AACA . I dont think any of the all original cars I owned could survive being knit picked if I ever took one to any clubs show,after I read their judging guidlines I will never enter any shows that are judged like that and just attend the way more casual shows I like. If I ever took any of my vehicles to a judged show I would be on the negative side when it came to points so I cant say I would have any fund doing that.

[MCHinson]

Jeff,

Enjoy your cars the way you enjoy them. From what I have read, I understand that you are not interested in participating in an AACA National Meet.

But... for the record, AACA Judging is NOT about nit picking. If you did read the judging guidelines, which are available online here at the AACA website, you would realize that it is impossible to end up with a negative score..... it just can't happen.

Let's not argue about it. Let's just agree that you don't want to participate in an AACA Meet, and we don't need to debate it back and forth.

[Shop Rat]

Since I am a member of the VCCA I looked through their judging guidelines on line and I dont know who is more nutty,the VCCA or the AACA . .....

Isn't it kind of bad manners to come onto a discussion forum provided by the members of the AACA and the AACA itself and disrespect the club as a whole with a statement like that?

Personally I think it is.

[junkyardjeff]

I did not mean it in a disrespectfull manner and was trying to be on the funny side so I am sorry if it came out that way but when I looked at the VCCA judging guidlines and all the deductions and so forth I thought it was a little too much,I presume their judging is inline with other clubs and would be way too much for me to ever show a car in a show like that. When I get the time I will look at the AACA judging and compare but after reading the VCCAs I came to the realization that those types of shows are not for me and I will probably never have a car that would even come close to competing.

Isn't it kind of bad manners to come onto a discussion forum provided by the members of the AACA and the AACA itself and disrespect the club as a whole with a statement like that?

Personally I think it is.

[junkyardjeff]

When I was referring to knit picking I meant how I took all the point deductions I read in the VCCA guidlines,from what I took is if I had a real nice car that a previous owner had installed alot of aftermarket accessories it would take a good hit on points. They like dealer installed accessories and nothing else so I presumed most clubs are like that,I will read the AACA guidelines tomorrow so I can compare and I was trying to be funny about the negative points.

Jeff,

Enjoy your cars the way you enjoy them. From what I have read, I understand that you are not interested in participating in an AACA National Meet.

But... for the record, AACA Judging is NOT about nit picking. If you did read the judging guidelines, which are available online here at the AACA website, you would realize that it is impossible to end up with a negative score..... it just can't happen.

Let's not argue about it. Let's just agree that you don't want to participate in an AACA Meet, and we don't need to debate it back and forth.

[MCHinson]

Jeff,

You will find the AACA is about cars as originally equipped, so cars loaded with aftermarket and/or modified items are not going to be competitive in Class Judging. AACA also features HPOF cars and DPC cars that are probably closer to what you like, but still not the highly modified cars that you profess to prefer. The "nutty" comment did not come across as funny as you apparently intended it.

Like I said, Let's not argue about it.

[junkyardjeff]

I am done now.

Jeff,

You will find the AACA is about cars as originally equipped, so cars loaded with aftermarket and/or modified items are not going to be competitive in Class Judging. AACA also features HPOF cars and DPC cars that are probably closer to what you like, but still not the highly modified cars that you profess to prefer. The "nutty" comment did not come across as funny as you apparently intended it.

Like I said, Let's not argue about it.

[sambarn]

Thank Goodness we all have the decorum to relegate our discrepancies to a discussion forum and that we have a discussion form for airing these grievances. It makes us all play better when the ice, snow and car covers go away and the cars come out to play.

[Shop Rat]

As one of our members Twitch would say.....group hug everyone.

[junkyardjeff]

I am ready for the snow to melt and I have not done much in the garage due to heating it with kerosene,2 years ago when I went through the suspension on the 37 I worked on it 7 days a week and got tired of smelling the kerosene and its now hard to get me to do it again. I still need to change the rear end gears in the 37 and change the cam in the 55 due to the engine builders mistake but I hope I get it done before march.

[junkyardjeff]

I read through the judging guidelines and it looks like the AACA might be a little more lienient then the VCCA on the point deductions, it looks like they do have a display only class in the VCCA so it looks like I will try to bring my 37 to the 50th anniversary meet. Even though they look to be a little stricter they do have room for people like me to attend their events so I will stay in the club and try to quit bothering other clubs but dont know if its a promise just yet.

[Restorer32]

Why not just go to an AACA National Meet (not a regional show) as a spectator and see what AACA is really all about? You might be pleasantly surprised and you certainly have the enthusiasm we are looking for.

[junkyardjeff]

I dont think there are any close to where I live or I would have long ago.

[Shop Rat]

Not a day trip but here is one that would be less than seven hours from you.

<TABLE id=table10 cellSpacing=1><TBODY><TR><TD class=date>Aug 11-13</TD><TD class=eventitem width=572>Southeastern Fall Meet - Bristol, TN - hosted by AACA Appalachian Region</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Or this one is under five and a half hours from you.

Sept 8-10 Central Fall Meet - Oakbrook, IL - hosted by AACA Illinois Region

And this one is right at eight hours for you. Well worth the trip because of the large flea market areas during AutoFair week right there at the Charlotte Motor Speedway.

April 7-10 Southeastern Spring Meet - Charlotte, NC - hosted by AACA Hornets Nest Region

Edited January 23, 2011 by Shop Rat (see edit history)

[junkyardjeff]

I have been wanting to go to the big swapmeet in Charlotte.

[Shop Rat]

I really think you would enjoy it. Sign up for the judging school to get a feel for how we all start off in judging. And by going you would get a free copy of the judging guidelines to check out any changes for 2011. And stay for the meet on Saturday. There is such a vast variety of vehicles to see.

[DAVE A]

Jeff;

I'm a newcomer also. I took my one car to Charlotte last year and certified it in DPC. I will be taking it and my newest restoration both to Charlotte this year. I'll bring an extra chair and you can sit by either one with me (or without me) and experience the show field if you like. I arrived Thursday last year and walked the flea market the rest of the day Thursday and all day Friday and still didn't see half of it!!! I would echo Shop Rat in that you should consider going to judging school. It will give you a lot of tips as to how AACA judges look at things. An added bonus is that you get tickets to the event !!!! Also there a lot of reasonably priced motels in nearby Charlotte, which only puts you 7 miles from the event.

[junkyardjeff]

There really is no need for me to go to the judging class as I dont keep my vehicles 100 percent original,I have been around old cars a long time and know what most makes are supposed to have and what does not belong on them. Now I would like to tag along with some judges to see what they do and observe them doing their job but that would be enough for me,I know alot about most american brands so I can build them with factory parts from different years to get it them the way I want it and not destroy it. Since I am in the VCCA and their judging looks very similar to the AACA I am thinking about driving my 37 p/u to the 50th anniversary meet and see if I can tag along with some judges there.

[junkyardjeff]

The only question I really have about judging is about aftermarket accessories,with the VCCA judging they accept dealer installed parts only which probably would be the same with the AACA and other clubs. Why a big deal with the aftermarket (Sears,Montgomery Wards etc.) because when the cars were new they were not antiques and used for transportion,why should someone 40 or 50 years down the road take a hit because the original owner add those parts for comfort and function when the vehicle was new. If I was a judge and ran accross those parts and the owner had proof they were installed in the car when it was new I would not deduct any points no matter what any club said,a owner many years down the road should not have to remove those accessories to satisfy a car club because they were not the ones that installed them in the first place.

[MCHinson]

Jeff,

If you attended a judging school, you could then participate in the apprentice judging program, which is quite similar to "tagging along" with some judges that you indicate you want to do. If you did that, you would get an excellent introduction and lesson in AAACA Judging. You would have to be an AACA Member to do this. If you happen to find a local AACA Region or Chapter, they may have one of the 4 free membership forms that national furnishes to Regions and Chapters each year.

The basic explanation of why aftermarket accessories result in deductions is that AACA Judges cars "as equipped by the manufacturer".... which also includes manufacturer approved dealer installed items. You can find this in the Judging Guidelines, or you would learn this in a judging school.

You should take Dave up on his offer.

[Shop Rat]

The only question I really have about judging is about aftermarket accessories,with the VCCA judging they accept dealer installed parts only which probably would be the same with the AACA and other clubs. .....

The rules for AACA judging are very clear. Only factory authorized accessories are permitted without deductions. Dealer provided accessories (ie. added tint on windows for instance or plastic seat covers from J.C. Whitney) will be deducted for if not factory authorized. Owner supplied accessories will be deducted for if not factory authorized.

The mission is to preserve vehicles as they could have come from the factory. Think of it like preserving any other piece of art. Someone might want to add a fig leaf to Michelangelo's "David", or change the pose, but no museum of fine art would display it.

If I was a judge and ran accross those parts and the owner had proof they were installed in the car when it was new I would not deduct any points no matter what any club said,a owner many years down the road should not have to remove those accessories to satisfy a car club because they were not the ones that installed them in the first place.

You wouldn't be a judge for long if you did that.

When someone signs on to be a judge for the AACA they accept the rules and judge accordingly. How they personally feel about the rules does not matter. They must uphold the system that is in place. Team Captains are responsible for making sure that judges under their supervision do not do what you are talking about doing. You would be reported by your Team Captain. We have a report form at every show to indicate how each Field Judge did at that show. Good judges are praised and bad judges can be excused from further judging. No Team Captain wants to mico-manage another judge. But it will be done if need be to make sure all owners are treated equally and fairly.

It is not fair to the owners that did it correctly to have a judge let the ones that didn't get away with it. Awards would mean nothing.

Even the dealer logos should be removed according to the rules. A deduction is in order if it is not.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Shop Rat
type-o (see edit history)

[buick5563]

It is not fair to the owners that did it correctly to have a judge let the ones that didn't get away with it. Awards would mean nothing.

Which brings us back to why this thread was started...

[junkyardjeff]

I will consider it and I am beginning to think that alot of people are forgetting what the cars and trucks were originally designed for,cars were to haul people and trucks hauled goods and worked and the manufactures did not make them for people to put on a pedistal and worshiped many years after being built. In my opinion if the aftermarket accessories are frowned apon then the dealers stuff should be too,those parts might be factory approved but they did not leave the assembly plant with them and thats the vibe I am getting here. My 37 Chevy p/u was modified right after it left the dealer,I think it was ordered as a cab and chassis with no heater and had a aftermarket flatbed and heater installed before going to work. Whoever installed the heater should have been shot as it was installed on the wrong side and they buggered up the firewall doing so and after all the work getting it straight I dont have the heart to drill any more holes to install the somewhat correct heater I picked up a couple years ago,my truck was doomed from day one but it did not get scrapped when my uncle was done with it.

[R W Burgess]

............ In my opinion if the aftermarket accessories are frowned apon then the dealers stuff should be too,those parts might be factory approved but they did not leave the assembly plant with them and thats the vibe I am getting here.

Jeff, you're missing the point here. The AACA has evolved over the years with changes made from time to time to benefit the hobby. We are an exclusive club that does its best to adhere to antique automobiles as they left the factory. We are proud of who we are.

As some members above have already stated, you need to attend a National Meet and observe how we do things, and yes, as an AACA member, you can join the Apprentice Judging Team where you will learn even more about our judging system. Try it, I guarantee you'll like it.

Wayne

[Shop Rat]

Jeff, you're missing the point here. The AACA has evolved over the years with changes made from time to time to benefit the hobby. We are an exclusive club that does its best to adhere to antique automobiles as they left the factory. We are proud of who we are.

As some members above have already stated, you need to attend a National Meet and observe how we do things, and yes, as an AACA member, you can join the Apprentice Judging Team where you will learn even more about our judging system. Try it, I guarantee you'll like it.

Wayne

And he doesn't have to "drink the Kool-Aid" in his everyday life. Only when he enters the AACA "house" so to speak. He can enjoy both sides if he would like to and be true to all avenues of the hobby he loves. It does not have to be either this or that in his life.

It's like it wouldn't the acceptable to wear a Speedo to church. (Well, except for Dandy Dave and we wonder about him sometimes. ) Nor would someone be likley to want to wear hockey gear to run a marathon.

It is the same with the AACA and other clubs. AACA members don't go to open shows and expect extra credit because their car meets the standard set by the AACA. They go and take their chances that the judges or public will like their vehicle and give it an award.

He might be shocked :eek: if he knew how many here have vehicles other than ones that adhere to the AACA standards and mission. But they know what the rules are here and don't buck them. They chat off of the forums about them.

[Restorer32]

You just don't take a dog to a cat show.

[R W Burgess]

You just don't take a dog to a cat show.

Jeff, I just knew your dog didn't like my cat!

Maggie said she knew it too! :cool:

Wayne

[GrayCav56]

I will consider it and I am beginning to think that alot of people are forgetting what the cars and trucks were originally designed for,cars were to haul people and trucks hauled goods and worked and the manufactures did not make them for people to put on a pedistal and worshiped many years after being built.

Jeff,

I think worship is a bit strong of a term, although many of us do put our vehicles on pedestals.

The benefit of maintaining or restoring a vehicle to factory specifications is that it can be used as a benchmark for future historical research by those who follow us. Future generations can follow the evolution of the automobile through the most rudimentary early models all the way up to those 25 years old. It's true that most cars and trucks are meant as appliances just to move folks and/or gear from one spot to another. But in many cases these cars are much more than that. We see them as embodiments of the combined efforts of many, many people to take an idea and turn it into a reality. We see them as beautiful manifestations of industrial art...some more in the "traditional" beauty mode but others beautiful in the honest way they get about their tasks with minimal fanfare and flash.

Some of them are the rewards of a lifetime of toil and savings, such as the gleam in my great uncle's eye when he finally "made it" and purchased his first Cadillac.

So I don't think any of us "worship" the vehicles we care for. We do this to honor the designers and engineers, the tool and die makers, the assembly workers and foremen, the executives and marketing types who all came together to create them for us to enjoy.

[Shop Rat]

Jeff, I just knew your dog didn't like my cat!

Maggie said she knew it too! :cool:

Wayne

You gotta' love the look on Maggies' face. "You talkin' ta' me?!?"

[DAVE A]

One of the assumptions often made is that someone knows what IS correct for a car. I wonder how this is done for some of the early makes and models where no such doccumentation exists. I know we have a lot of that problem in Crosleys. There is a supposition that certain things are correct but there is no "learned source" of information as to what is true. I've checked on what the AACA library has and that is not too much. We have a few "experts" in the club but they too have made a mistake or 2. I've even entertained trying to gather all of the information and pictures I can and publish my own "judging standards" book to be used as a future source. I can tell you there are several Crosleys that have passed judging and made awards that are in no way correct for how they came from the factory. I'm not trying to criticize, I just wonder how it comes about in other brands so that the right standard is adhered to??

On another subject...Hey Wayne...who do I have to bribe to be able to sit at your table at Charlotte again???

[MCHinson]

Dave,

Dave, you bring up a valid point. On many common collector cars a lot of data exists so it is easier to judge, and it makes it more difficult to compete with a less than pristine example.

On a rarer car, it is more likely that the judge will not know and will either ask for documentation, or if it looks like it is probably correct, just assume it is correct and not question it. So, if you have a very uncommon car, and it is presented in a manner that seems like it might be correct...you might get lucky and not lose any points even if it is not correct.

[DAVE A]

One of my fears is that I will be asked for doccumentation that, to my knowledge, DOES NOT EXIST. Some of the details that may commonly be asked for in judging a Crosley, as far as I know (ie nothing in AACA or any other library that I know of) is not available

[MCHinson]

While it could potentially be a problem for you, I think you will find that most Team Captains would take your word on something in question. Unless a team member knows that somethign is incorrect, they should give you the benefit of the doubt. It seems unlikely that a team member will know more than you know about Crosleys.

[DAVE A]

There are one or 2 judges that do know Crosleys well, but they refuse to judge Crosleys. They are faced with the same problem in that there is so much that is unknown. the cars were also made with so much variability. There is a story told to me by a lady who worked in the Crosley factory. She was questioned one day by Powel Crosley himself as to why the pile of parts there on the floor was not going on the cars. She told him that those particular parts were not for the model they were making. He replied that "they are now" and returned shortly with an engineer who figured out a way to use up those parts on the floor.

I also have so much respect for the people who do judging, that I probably would not argue with someone who maintains that they are right (if I have no doccumentation to the contrary). Judging is a tough job and I would never want to make someone who does the job look bad in any way. I gues I would try to educate them with the things I THINK I know, but if I don't have facts, I would be inclined to accept what they say.

[Shop Rat]

Team Captains can accept or reject information, other than factory documentation, presented by an owner.

We are to always give the owner the benefit of the doubt if no one on the team knows for sure and the owner only has verbal information to offer.

All team members should discuss items that are questioned if the owner can not present factory documentation. The reason being because a field judge that is not judging the area in question just might have judged a vehicle like it at another meet where the owner did have correct documentation and could shed some light on the matter if they know about it is being questioned.