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Judging standards


Restorer32

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Extra trophy?? Extra trophies cost more money, is this really Steve Moskowitz talking??:D:D

More trophies given means less profit to AACA, are you getting soft in your old age??:D:D

We need to spend some of that trophy money towards hiring an assistant to keep a certain Executive Director from working too hard.....

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  • 1 month later...

My problem is that many of the judges I have incountered just don't know enough about the cars they are judging ! I know it is impossable to know everything. But can't they ask any Questions !?! I stay out of their way and am plesent when they ask me to open the hood. But this year they took 10 points off my car for having galvinised wheels. My car is suposed to have them, and there is no redress. If they are not sure they should ask.

2 years ago I had one judge tell my it was OK to have my side curtins on the ground behind the car. Then I over heard the other judge on the team taking points off because I didn't have any !

Has anyone els had a problem? THANKS

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Big Mark, side curtain rule is that you have to have them but they do not need to be installed. I have always put my side curtains at the back of the car for the judges to see.

There is redress! Judges are instructed to ask for documentation and most do. Once in awhile, someone believes strongly that they already have the answer. Your, redress is to contact the Vice-President of Class Judging.

If you judge over 4,000 cars with over 1,000 judges you are bound to have problems. Our system and people are not perfect and never will be. Neither do all car owners have the correct information and restoration on their cars. We all do the best we can do.

AACA has a school and Continuous Judges Education at meets along with a 100 page judging guidline so we are serious about trying to get it right.

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Big Mark,

At meets Team Captains are supposed to greet you as the team begins to judge your vehicle. That is the time to let the Team Captain know of any issues you have encountered regarding questioned items on your vehicle. Offer to show them factory documentation for those items. Be proactive.

Every owner that helps a team and Team Captain learn about the year, make and model of their vehicle sends five people away with more knowlege for the next time they are on a show field. And they will help their next team when they encounter a vehicle like that again. Kind of like paying it forward. You tell five people and then they tell five people and so it goes. :)

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I try to do my best as a judge. I sign up to judge the cars I am most familar with and if I encounter something I am not sure of, I ask the team captain. If the team captain is not sure he or she questions the owner. As Steve points out we have quite a few meets with alot of cars and judges. Nothing is perfect but I really feel we do a pretty good job and one that I am happy to perform and be a part of the team.

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Hi Choclatetown, I sent away for the judging sheet, and when It came in the mail I was Flabbergasted! they subtracted 2 points for each wheel because they are galvanized. 5 wheels = 10 points , they also took off for side curtains when the were clearly in place behind the car. to answer the question about letting the judges know what is special about you car, I don't know what they take off for until weeks later. and they make it clear they don't want to be disturbed when they are judging. someone on that team must have said "his wheels are galvanized thats wrong" and what he should have said was (to ME ) I see your wheels are galvanized, are your sure thats right ? then I could start his education and make my case. Instead they say thank you and move on.

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Big Mark,

I suspect that you received a blank judging sheet with areas highlighted. There should not have been any numbers written on the sheet. The highlighted areas are areas that you might need to check as you received deductions in that area(s).

What makes you think that you received 2 point deduction per wheel, and what makes you think that the deduction was due to the wheels being galvanized?

It is totally possible that there is some other problem with your wheels that could have resulted in a deduction. One example that I have often seen is a car that should have metal valve stems that has rubber valve stems. There could also be a condition issue with your side curtains, as opposed to an incorrect deduction for missing side curtains.

Also, as has already been asked, what type of car are we talking about here? Without knowing more details, it is difficult to make an accurate guess as to what the issue may be.

It is possible that there is a logical explanation for your deductions and it is also possible that there was an error, but without more information, there is no way to know which happened.

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..... to answer the question about letting the judges know what is special about you car, I don't know what they take off for until weeks later.

What I was referring to is items that you know have been questioned now that you have received a highlighted judging sheet, or if the Team Captain as discussed items where major deductions have been taken such as for radial tires if they are not correct for that vehicle.

If you have factory documentation to support that the items are correct then be proactive and offer to show them to the Team Captain. If you do not have factory documentation then you need to obtain it by purchasing it or contacting the AACA Library and Research Center to see if they can help you. AACA members get one and a half hours of free research through the L&RC. Copies can be mailed to you for a reasonable fee. This documentation is accepted by the judging team.

..... and they make it clear they don't want to be disturbed when they are judging. .....

It is correct owners should not start discussions with the field judges just as they are not permitted to start conversations with owners. On a field judging team only the Team Captain is allowed to speak with owners. And owners can speak to Team Captains. There may be other AACA personnel that speak with owners, ie. members of the National Awards team.

However, once the team gathers back with the Team Captain to report their findings all converstations with the owner, with the exception of the Team Captain letting the owner(s) know that the judging is complete and thanking them for bringing their vehicle, should have taken place and been completed.

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McHinson, Bigmark may have reasons for not saying what car it is. The point is he was not ask before major deductions were taken. I do know it's a very new restoration and the car was done right. As a judge when a car has a very quality restoration and a judge thinks something is way wrong wouldn't it make sense for the judge to verify before taking big points. Especially, in this example, when the owner paid big $$ for plating and the judge thought the wheels should be painted silver.

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Were these wheels galvanized or zinc plated? There is a difference. Were the wheels pitted before plating? Are we talking wheels or rims? I don't think I have ever seen true galvanized wheels or rims.

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nearchocolatetown,

Unless someone has broken the rules, he has no way of knowing how many points he lost, or what he lost them for. He only has an idea of areas where some number of points were deducted.

Secondly, My guess is it is his 1916 Dodge, since it is the first car he has listed in his signature line, he is near Hershey, and he said "two years ago" and there is a 1916 Dodge in the Hershey meet results 2 years ago, that was owned by someone with the name "Mark".

Now, why the big secret? Did someone break the rules and discuss the points deducted with him? That is the only logical reason I can think of for the secrecy.

If major deductions were taken, the Team Captain should have discussed it with the owner. I do agree that some judges are reluctant to ask for documentation. I have routinely asked the Team Captain to ask for documentation on things that I am not 100% sure of, because I think I have lost points myself on things that were correct. So, I am not saying that this is not an issue that could use some discussion, but from what I have seen I am not yet convinced that bigmark has a valid complaint.

So, please educate me about 1916 Dodge Wheels.... I know nothing about them. And, lets see a photo of the wheels in question so we can see if there is a condition issue, or the wrong valve stems or some other explanation...

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Slippery slope here fellows. Even if the owner brought the subject up we do not need to be debating the merits of someone's personal car.

Certainly his highlighted sheet did not show a point total but he might have guessed by seeing point deductions listed on the pre-printed score sheet.

'16 Dodge "galvinised"..are we talking about cad plating here? We do allow some leeway in this area as long as the finished product looks close to the cad. I'm with Jeff, a little confused.

Next year there will be a spot on the new judging form (all forms have been changed) that the team captain must check off indicating that he has told the owner of a major deduction. That probably would not have helped in this case as it was a series of deductions apparently that added up not a circled major deduction

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Especially, in this example, when the owner paid big $$ for plating and the judge thought the wheels should be painted silver.

nearchocolatetown,

How would you or the owner or anybody else know that points were lost because the juge thought the wheels should be painted silver? If someone is divulging that type of information, the judging process is not working like it is supposed to work.

I agree that there are examples of judges failing to ask for documentation when they should. As I indicated earlier, while I have no idea the number of points I lost, I am quite certain that I have suffered from a mistake about plating similar to that myself, without being asked for documentation, which I had.

Asking for documentation if always mentioned in the judging schools, but it obviously still needs to continue to be stressed.

I don't know if my guess about Big Mark's make and model of car is correct or incorrect, but would welcome the opportunity to learn more about this apparently rare vehicle.

I am still confused by Big Mark's complaint and your post as quoted above.

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my car is currently a basket case, I will make every effort to restore it to as high a level as practical. I really want to make it an award winner. I can only assume that I will not get an award the first time out. Now, if I honestly think that I am bringing a 390 point car, when it in reality is getting 150. I am clearly interested in making it as correct as possible, but how am I to know what I am getting wrong?

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ray17025,

Welcome to the AACA Discussion Forum.

After a meet, You can request and receive a blank judging form that has areas where you lost points highlighted. This allows you to see what areas need attention, even though it will not tell you exactly what is wrong. Another good idea is to have a local experienced judge take a look at your car and give you advice. I have had this done for me and I have also done it for others.

Where are you located? There is probably a local chapter or region that has a judge or judges that will be happy to look over your car and provide feedback to you. There are lots of people in this hobby that are happy to help their fellow hobbyists.

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Also, you can follow this link http://www.aaca.org/publications/manuals/judges/2010_Judges_Guidelines.pdf

and look through the 2010 Judges Guidelines book. The 2011 guidelines have not been posted yet but the 2010 edition will give you a feel for the judging guidelines of the AACA. Check back from time to time to find out when the 2011 edition has been posted.

The form for judging Junior vehicles is on page 54 and you can print that off and look it over. There are notes at the bottom of the form explaining things like a deduction of say 10 with a cirlce around it. That is a mandatory deduction, we have to take 10 off, we can't take less than that.

Think of 0 points deducted as "perfect/correct" and the total points listed as the item is missing, incorrect or can't be used for it's intended function. Whatever numbers are in between are like good, fair, poor, etc.

If you are an AACA member you get one and a half hours of free research from the AACA Library and Research Center. Copies of the information that they have regarding your vehicle can be had for a reasonable cost. Judging teams accept information from the L&RC as proper documentation.

Have you joined the AACA for 2011?

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It is always a pleasure to judge an AACA event. Wish there were more out here that I can get to. I have judged in several AACA events as well as many other non AACA shows. Each one is a new and interesting experience.

I must say that I have great respect for the AACA Judging standards. More clubs could learn by attending some of the judges education courses. Any NCRS judges reading this? I hope so!

Last year one of my freshly restored cars was at its first showing. The colors selected were taken from an original sales folder and listed as original available colors for this year and model. I have never seen one of these cars restored in these colors. I placed the original in color sales book with the car in case there were questions. Sure enough, when the judges approached the car, one loudly commented, "they never had these colors" --- The head judge noticed the open sales book and pulled the other judge aside and showed him the book. He learned that if there is a question, quietly go ask the senior judge.

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.....Sure enough, when the judges approached the car, one loudly commented, "they never had these colors" --- .....

I hope that the Team Captain did their job after that happened and had a quiet, polite discussion with the entire team about proper judging etiquette.

Which would include that discussions about vehicles should be done in a very low tone of voice and away from the owner(s) or anyone that could be with them.

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That's the problem I'm talking about shop rat. that discussion should take place with the owner, not behind his back. If the owner is included then those questions could be asked and answered. And the owner can be as educated about his car as the judges supposedly are. Perhaps the Hershey meet has gotten too big? If the judges can’t afford to spend enough time with each car. Maybe that should be relooked.

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Big Mark,

I don't think you understand my previous posts. It would be a violation of the rules of the AACA Judging System for anyone to reveal the number of points that were deducted on your car to you or to any other vehicle owner. I am not accusing you of "cheating".

Your posts and those of Nearchocolatetown, appear to state that you were told that you received a particular number of points deducted because the judges thought that your wheels were finished incorrectly. If that is the case, then whoever gave you that information violated the rules. As I posted previoulsy, I suspect that did not occur, but those posts are simply unclear.

I would suggest that you might want to read the Judging Standards. Learning more about the Judging System would help you understand the judging process. Attending a Judging School would be a good idea for you or anyone who has questions about the process.

I would also welcome you to discuss those rules by Private Message if you are interested. Your characterization of my posts is incorrect.

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Big Mark, You are so very wrong about Matt. He is the very person you would want to talk to. I have known him for several years and he is very knowledgeable, honest and straightforward. You honestly have misjudged him. As he said he is not accusing you of cheating. But owners are not to be told scores....ever.

You must understand, on a team may be someone with many credits and some with very few. Team members must go to school one time per year and are encouraged to go to at least one CJE per year. We only get credit for one school and one CJE per year, unless we hit a milestone like 10, 25, 50 ect. and then we must take a CJE so we can get two that year.

Matt is correct you should go to some judging classes and CJEs and see for yourself how we are trained and what the rules are. There is no cost for going to judging school or CJEs and you get a free Judges Guidelines at the school. The guidelines can be read on line here for free.

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Honestly as an "outsider" and a person who is really not interested in having any of my cars actually AACA or CCCA

judged as they are mostly all drivers~~~

I do enjoy going to judged car show events however~~

.

Also I do respect those who wish to enter their show cars in an AACA

judged competition

But having any of my cars judged is just not my thing~~~

I have never actually understood the basic reasoning behind not letting a car owner know their actual final total judging score or where they lost judging points, or how many points for each incorrect item on their car.

Why not let the car owner actually know where their restoration fell short ?

I can understand not telling the owner at the actual show event itself as ths would only cause possible conflicts and arguments~~~

Also there is not enough time at a show for such debates~~~

But~~~

Why keep the owner's score a secret long after the judged show ?

How is the car owner to learn what is not correct about his car & it's restoration ?

To me, by not actually telling the car owner this could possibly only lead to taking the car back to future AACA judged shows with the very same restoration mistakes that cost them the same point deductions as the past shows .

Why does the AACA not tell the car owner their total judging point score, and how many points were actually deducted for each incorrect item upon special written request after sveral weeks after the show ?

Also~~~

What if by some honest mistake the judges incorrectly deducted points because they did not really know what was supposed to be original or a correct item on this specific car ?

Judges can, an often do make honest mistakes~~~

A judge cannot be expected to know everything about EVERY car !

I know judging at AACA car shows is a very tough job indeed !

It's also a fast way to anger and lose good friends~~~

I have judged at sports-car shows in the early 1970s~~~

I soon vowed to never judge at carshows again !

AACA judges do in fact do a great job !

Judging is not at all easy~~~

Can anyone tell us exactly why total scores, and exact item point deductions are not revealed to the car's owner AFTER the show ?

I am NOT trying to start any trouble, or a long debate on this subject, here~~~

I just want to understand the reasoning behind this AACA rule ?

Why did it come about ?

I just cannot understand the actual reasoning behind all this score business being kept a big secret from the car's actual owner ?

How is a car owner expected to learn about his restoration mistakes ?

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Silverghost,

The easy answer is that those who have gone before us decided that was the best policy for the club. It is laid out clearly in the General Policy of AACA Judging, as listed below.

"C. GENERAL POLICY

The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate

an antique vehicle which has been restored to

the same state as when the dealer received the

vehicle from the factory. Any feature, option, or

accessory shown in the original factory catalog,

sales literature or company directives for

the model year of the vehicle, will be accepted

for judging. The end result of the accurate and

honest evaluation of a vehicle by a judging

team will be the proper determination

of the

deserved award for the owner’s efforts.

The following specific statements of policy shall

govern AACA judging.

1. All vehicles legitimately registered in a

competition class and displayed

on the

show field will be “point” judged unless

the owner requests

that the vehicle not be

judged.

2. There shall be no penalty or premium

for

over-restoration. Over-restoration and nonauthentic

restoration are not the same.

Paint with a finer finish and higher gloss

than original paint would be considered

over-restoration.

Chrome plating or varnishing

a part which was originally painted

would be considered

non-authentic restoration,

and the vehicle would receive the

appropriate point deduction

on the judging

form.

3. Original vehicles not entered in the "Historical

Preservation of Original Features"

(HPOF) class, the “Driver Participation

Class (DPC) or the "Second Generation

Collector Vehicle" (SGCV) class will be

point judged in the same manner as

restored vehicles. Vehicles in the HPOF

class will not be point judged but will be

authenticated

to confirm significant original

features. Vehicles entered in the Driver

Participation Class will not be point judged

but will be certified as a "Driver" with

accepted upgrades.

4. No score will be disclosed to an owner or

his/her representative for any reason.

5. Only the team captain may engage

in conversation

with an owner.

6. Items of major deduction on a vehicle may

be discussed with an owner by the team

captain.

7. Judges will always display the utmost

respect

for every vehicle and extend common

courtesy to the owner at all times.

8. No judge or team of judges are allowed

to enter a vehicle unless it is a bus, motorhome

or large commercial vehicle. All

interior judging will be done through open

doors."

Now, to go out on a limb... my personal opinion is as follows.

At one time, I also thought that it would be better to disclose scores to vehicle owners. In a perfect world, I still think it might be a good idea. Unfortunately, in the real world, I don't think it is practical. If you think that debates on judging get heated here, you should follow some debates on other websites concerning judging systems that reveal individual scores to owners and others...

In the real world, people make mistakes. People have misunderstandings. People don't always communicate clearly. While it can be frustrating, the AACA judging system's secrecy allows AACA to not waste nearly as much time debating every point deduction and error or perceived error in the judging process and/or system. I am aware of many instances of intense debate and argument in clubs that divulge judging "numbers" over those numbers.

AACA has a system in place to give appropriate feedback to the vehicle owner, yet does it not divulge individual scores. This compromise generally causes less problems than any other system would.

While not perfect, it is the best compromise to keep the system workable in the real world.

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An additional thought, from my point of view only, is that I have seen some extremely bad behavior from folks in other hobbies that Bill and/or I have been involved in. Racing and showing horses are two of them. Too many people today seem to have anger issues that they can't or don't want to control.

I for one don't want some out of control angry owner coming after me for some slight that they have perceived that might not even be the case.

Judges volunteer their time to judge. We attend the required classes which usually require an extra day of our "free time" and for many that means an extra day or two of vacation as many are still working. We do our best but mistakes can happen. Very few of us are professionals in the world of antique vehicles. We learn with every class we go to, every vehicle we judge and every other judge we are on a team with and from the owners themselves.

As Matt said above, owners can request a highlighted form if they do not receive the award they were going for. They can then walk around their vehicle and understand where and why points were taken off. And just because an area has been highlighted it does not mean that all of the points were taken off. We only do that in four cases: the item is missing, the item is incorrect, the item is in such bad condition it can not be used for it's intended purpose or if the number has a circle around it we must take that deduction that is circled. If they strongly disagree they can send a letter with their concerns to the VP of Class Judging and discuss it. The show field is not the place for that.

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Matt & Susan:

Thank You for you quick replys.

I had already suspected what you both have just explained.

regarding points & not disclosing point totals.

I know of some unreasonable folks that can take car judging way too seriously and expect some would not take kindly to any group of car judges who properly deducted points on their car for any reason~~~

rightly or wrongly !

In many respects being

a car show judge is a thankless job.

I respect any car show judge and the great efforts & personal time that they take to do their job correctly .

In the end I believe this Antique & Classic car hobby should be FUN and enjoyable for all involved !

The last thing any car show needs is on-the-showfield arguments !

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Silverghost, Thanks for understanding. When someone has seen others "lose their cool" in scary ways it just doesn't seem like the safest thing to do to expose volunteers to that.

A couple of years ago at Hershey I had a guy come up and start ranting to me about judges from the previous year. Nothing to do with me or my team at all. He just needed to vent to someone and I let him do so to get it out of his system. Picture if you will how scary that would have been to the judge/team in question. And of course I had no way of knowing if he was right or they were right. He was polite to me and that is why I let him talk about it.

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Just logged on - saw new posts and wow!!. As we say in Dixie, Y'all do God's work. Patiently rehashing this subject with person after person, maybe one in three "getting it". It's got to be frustrating but it is a powerful recruiting tool when people who feel as we do are looking for a club that makes sense. When y'all continue to take the high road and patiently explain the ideals and rules of AACA judging in a calm and moderate voice, interlaced with humor, cooperative discussion and rapid answers, you speak well for the club to those who are most looking for that voice. Thank you and please keep it up.

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Big Mark. I am only about 35 miles East of you and would be happy to view and "judge" your car if you'd like. AACA judging can sometimes seem confusing and even arbitrary to a newcomer to the system. PM me if you are interested.

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I certainly did not lose my cool because of something that happened on the show field. I simply pointed out a mistake the judges had made. I lost it because of the attacks and accusations on this site. If you don’t know what’s going on, you should not comment. Talk about circling the wagons. I thought we were all in this club together.

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Mark, you made the heinous accusation that your exact scores had been given to you by both a judge and then national headquarters on your form. This should never happen, and if you do not appreciate the reasons why, I surely believe that threatening to punch someone in the nose, is an inappropriate response to the misunderstanding. I do hope you understand you have pointed to specific details of a picture we can't see. as far as Galvanized wheels and side curtains, many would like to know and it would help us understand better your consternation.

I have read and re read the posts and the only aggressive voice is yours. I also understand "what's going on" as far as the AACA judging process goes, but as stated before, don't know enough about the car (era/style/class/manufacturer) to even help, much less understand thoroughly. One of the main reasons judges are instructed to not speak to car owners is that often the responses follow exactly along the lines of this thread. Poor communication between two passionate individuals and we have all seen what happened to Cool Hand Luke when there was failure to communicate. I truly wish you happiness with your cars.

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Big Mark,

We are only able to communicate on this site by typed words. You have to understand that using such written communication is often difficult to communicate as effectively as we would all like. You miss the non-verbal clues such as tone of voice, facial expressions, posture, hand gestures, and etc.

Please take the time to calmly re-read this thread and I think you will see that you misunderstood and responded agressively due to not understanding what several people were trying to say, in an attempt to help you with your questions and concerns.

As it stands, your previous posts, as I read them, indicate that someone told you how many points were deducted from your car. If that is what happened, the person who told you the number of points deducted violated the rules.

I suspect that this did not happen. I would guess that what you were talking about is a preprinted number in the category that was highlighted on the blank judging form sent to you. That does not mean that that number of points was deducted on your car.

Several folks here have tried to help. If you are able to calmly explain the situation with facts, I am sure that someone will be able to help you understand. Perhaps the judges made mistakes and perhaps they did not. I don't have enough information at this time to tell one way or the other.

It has probably happened to most of us over the years. I have been disappointed by what I am quite sure was a judging error on my own car in the not too distant past. I am still a little disappointed and irritated about it but it is not going to make me threaten someone.

I hope you will take Restorer32 up on his offer. I have been on both sides of this issue. I have helped others by looking at their cars and I have also had a more experienced judge point out some stuff on my car that I had not noticed.

You really should go to a judging school and read the judging guidelines. After that, I think you would better understand the system, and the process.

Even if you don't understand how we are trying to help, we are all in this club together.

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QUOTE: Next year there will be a spot on the new judging form (all forms have been changed) that the team captain must check off indicating that he has told the owner of a major deduction. That probably would not have helped in this case as it was a series of deductions apparently that added up not a circled major deduction UNQUOTE.

I agree this is a great idea. I believe an equally good idea would be to include a check mark that indicates that the Captain has asked the owner for documentation where appropriate. Of course, the next question is how can we determine if it was appropriate, after the fact? So, maybe it wouldn't work. Over 40 years as an AACA Judge (201 credits) the not asking for documentation where appropriate is a problem I've run into too often. That said, I've also noticed that we've gotten better at it in recent times. Everything said, AACA has, without the shadow of a doubt, the best judging in the hobby, and the Club never stops trying to improve the system anyway.

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I too always wondered why we did not release point deductions, but this thread pretty much explains why. Could you imagine the time being consumed fighting back and forth over a one or two point deduction that kept a car from an award being sought?

Other marque specific organizations can and will provide more detailed analysis, but then again, we are talking apples and rutabagas. They spend MUCH more time developing exacting standards and likewise spend a lot more time in the judging process. It would just not be practical for a universal make club and judging process like AACA.

AACA has a wonderful show/judging process that I believe honestly rewards those vehicles who meet the benchmarks as set forth. Every judging class I have attended has stressed that authenticity and condition are what we key on, and any questions as to said authenticity should be addressed with the owner...who should be prepared to show proof if asked. I have never heard an instructor set forth a "gotcha" mentality.

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..... I have never heard an instructor set forth a "gotcha" mentality.

I can tell you for sure that not one instructor I have be instructed by, be they for judging school or a CJE, has EVER had the "gotcha" mentality. We are told to be thorough but to not nit pick the vehicles.

I believe in the AACA way of judging. I feel that to best abilities of human beings we try our best to be fair and equal to all. :)

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