Bad Gasoline

[FireballV8]

Hi

Has anyone else noticed the new gas going back within a year? I hadn't driven one of my cars in about 10 months or so and the gas in the tank smelled like bad gas and the car won't run now. I am cleaning out the lines and redoing the carb right now, but was wondering if anyone else has seen this.

Thanks

Steve

[Guest DinoBob]

The more ethanol that gets put into the fuel, the more prone to spoilage it is. I have had 3 month-old gas that will not run in my trimmer and blower. My wife's Honda had 4 month old gas in it and the car would not run.

[NTX5467]

In my research on ethanol'd fuels, with particular interest in shelf life of gasoline, there are varying orientations. For best longevity in storage, the container must be tightly-sealed as the first things to evaporate will be the lighter components (which generally have the octane-enhancers in it).

Over the longer term, moisture absorbed by the alcohol in the fuel will attract each other and the resulting mixture will generally sink to the bottom of the tank (right where the fuel pickup is). The remaning gasoline will have a lower octane rating as a result. Unfortunately, the float bowl of the carburetor is a smaller fuel tank, too.

Some people intentionally "wash" the alcohol out by adding water and then removing the resutling gunk from their container. It doesn't happen overnight, though.

Check the fueltestkits.com website for information on which fuel additives contain alcohol/ethanol and those which do not. Adding such alcohol-based additives to existing ethanol'd fuels is not necessary.

The "blue" Stabil (for marine applications) is supposed to counteract the effects of ethanol in gasoline.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[JoelsBuicks]

I'm beginning to see more posts and stories about bad experiences thought to be related to ethanol in gasoline. Part of what I am paid to do professionally is to participate in ongoing research concerning ethanol in gasoline. While the product of this research is overwhelmingly non-public, intellectual property and cannot be disclosed here, I can talk in general terms and about issues of either common knowledge or otherwise available to the public.

For the most part, the stories we've heard are not without merit and are explained through an understanding of basic chemistry. There are other documented problems attributable to ethanol that only have causal theories. Anyone who has had basic college chemistry might wonder how a mixture of gasoline and ethanol interact with each other. The thought is that an alcohol by itself behaves chemically different than gasoline by itself. In chemistry, alcohol is a known polar solvent whereas gasoline is almost entirely non polar. So, how does the mixture behave and why do we care? We care because the systems and their materials of construction need to withstand its exposure. We also care because we need to know what time does to such mixtures, particularly when the mixture is exposed to other contaminants like oxygen or fuel additives. We also need to know about varying concentrations of ethanol in gasoline and how this affects all of those things mentioned. Do we know about these things? Not all of them.

Steve, I am not at all surprised to hear about the problems you are having but I'd really appreciate a followup from you to hear if your clearing the system works. A researcher wants to hear the followup because if, in the end, you found a bugs nest blocking a line, then your assertion of bad gas might still be true but not necessarily. Generally speaking, once gasoline enters your tank it will degrade according to conditions in and around the tank and according to the condition of the gasoline when it was put in - particularly moisture level and oxygen. In short, it could happen to you and not someone else.

Speaking strictly from a scientific opinion, it appears to me that the zeal for ethanol is outpacing the scientific understanding of long term impacts. I am very concerned about concentrations of ethanol in gasoline that approach a level any higher than 15% and that is all I have to say about that.

[JohnD1956]

Joel, Thanks for that post. May I ask if you have found verifiable evidence that Stabil does indeed counter the effects of the Ethanol? Or is this information protected?

For anyone else, is it possible to overdo the Stabil application and have a needle valve stick because of it?

[Guest DinoBob]

Very informative thread.

Joel, in addition to being well-spoken and thoroughly well-informed, it would seem, you drive a '60 Electra, which makes you a genius.

[JoelsBuicks]

Without specific permission and licensing and confidentiality agreements, we are prohibited from performing research and testing on proprietary products even though they are commercially available. And, for the products that we do gain licensing for testing, there are non-disclosure agreements whereby we cannot discuss results outside of that agreement. That being said, it is my opinion that there are additives commercially available that do perform their stated function.

No genius here but regarding my '60 Electra I'll tell you a short story. In the mid to late 60's, I would stand up in the seat next to my dad. He would often tell me the year and make of the cars on the road. Every time I saw a 60 Buick, I would ask dad about it and he'd tell me, "that's a 60 Buick boy". I wanted one of those cars for forty years and finally the opportunity was right. Just got back from about a 500 mile round trip this past weekend and she was "talkin sweet" another one of dad's sayin's.

[Reatta Man]

Joel,

Congrats on finding the '60 you wanted. Those are BEAUTIFUL cars!

You have pretty much confirmed what a lot of us have been saying about the ethanol mix we are getting now.

There is a way to counteract the bad gas.....happens two weeks from Tuesday. But we can't talk about that in here....even though the bad gas is trashing our cars and is completely avoidable.

And just remember; do nothing now about the 10% ethanol that you don't like now and you will LOVE the 15%, then 20% ethanol you could be getting down the road.....

Joe

Edited October 19, 2010 by Reatta Man (see edit history)

[Dave@Moon]

There is a way to counteract the bad gas.....happens two weeks from Tuesday. But we can't talk about that in here....even though the bad gas is trashing our cars and is completely avoidable.

And just remember; do nothing now about the 10% ethanol that you don't like now and you will LOVE the 15%, then 20% ethanol you could be getting down the road.....

Joe

Political support for ethanol is about as bipartisan as anything in existence in the U.S.A. As long as campaigns are privately funded (and thanks to the Supreme Court as of this year they're really privately funded), ethanol support will come from every side of every aisle. The money behind it is unstoppable.

I've been saying for more than a decade now that we'd all see the day when gasoline for our cars would be something we bought in 5 gal. cans at the hardware store. Did you really think that the circumstances that will make that happen would be pleasent? Or that there would be viable alternatives?

Pump gas has always been for the general public's transportation. Changing times is going to mean changing fuel. We're all going to think of having to buy gas in cans as some sort of favor before this is over.

[NTX5467]

Joel, thanks for the commentary! Quite interesting. Nice '60 Electra, too!

The "damage" from ethanol-in-gasoline doesn't happen immediately, but over time. Since the first RFG, on the cars I drive daily there has been no fuel-realted problems, but the fuel economy DID decrease about 3% (which was in line with oil company estimates AND what was on the Chevron website back then, in full explanation of "cleaner burning gasoline"). Now that the oxygenate percentage of ethanol is 10%, up from the prior amount in the earlier RFG, more problems have been noted by particular parts of the vintage vehicle hobby plus off-road engine owners.

The body of knowledge regarding the issues with E10 fuels is MASSIVE, yet the ethanol lobby still seems to be blind to that. If I was making a product that caused problems with my customers' vehicles, I would certainly do what I could to give them a better experience with my product, if possible . . . but such "customer satisfaction" seems to be completely absent in the case of ethanol-in-gasoline. And with that existing body of knowledge regarding E10, they are advocating E15 and E30!!!

Voting in the near future will NOT change this situation, but massive emails to representatives CAN. There are several websites which have letters in them, some with places for additional comments. The "fine line" is that we do NOT desire the vintage vehicle hobby to be painted into a corner as "opponents of cleaner air" by our opposition of higher blend levels of ethanol-in-gasoline than the current E10 . . . by the ethanol advocates.

Although E15 is now EPA-approved for 2007+ Model Year vehicles, there is still a good bit to be done before they can be sold. EPA-approved pump labels are one thing. Fuel retailer determinations of carrying it at all are another.

FIRST, we had unleaded gasoline which took 5% more crude to refine a gallon of unleaded gasoline rather than the prior leaded counterpart of the same octane.

SECOND, we got lower compression ratio engines which were not as fuel efficient as their prior high compression versions, typically . . . at least back then.

THIRD, we have gotten highly-enhanced safety requirements, which added weight and less fuel economy in the mix of being more crash-worthy . . . although everything has its "cost", this might be a more even trade-off.

FOURTH, "oxygenates" were added to fuels, up to 10% by volume, to decrease CO2 levels in higher-elevations of Colorado. They worked. But this was when the majority of vehicles had carburetors.

To this point, we have . . .

> > > "X" (amount of crude to make one gallon of leaded gasoline in 1970) times 1.05 (the "unleaded factor") for crude oil needs times .90 to allow for 10% oxygenate.

> > > For each 10% ethanol added, fuel economy will decrease approximately 7.7%, which is in line with the 3-4% decrease of fuel economy for RFG compared to non-RFG, with its lower levels of ethanol.

This results in actual crude oil use of .945X from 1970 levels. Yet fuel economy will be 7.7% less than non-RFG fuels (circa 1990 and prior) for E10 fuels. Therefore, although using 10% ethanol to "extend" existing crude oil base stocks, such E10 results in MORE fuel useage due to less fuel economy, resulting in the need for 2-3% MORE crude oil to be needed.

As noted, the ethanol lobby is very powerful. Now . . . they claim the additional 5% ethanol for gasoline extension will add about 133K more jobs--what politician could NOT vote for something which is alleged to bring 133K more people back into the workforce? Or something with "renewable energy" in its name?? Yet other groups, many of which are food-related, highly oppose the E15 waiver due to the impact it'll have on available food items, plus their related cost increases, on the general public AND agricultural interests. And then there's the vehicle hobby with on-road and off-road engines . . . which is "Us".

And "carbon footprint"?? Even if the corn grown for ethanol was havested and then transported to market by electric tractors and trucks, the electricity used to charge those vehicles would probably come from coal-fired power plants (might be wind energy too, but that's not fully on-line just yet) with their own carbon footprint. So that means that fossil fuels would be needed to power the necessary implements and vehicles to plant, grow, harvest, and transport the corn BEFORE it is processed and readied to be added to gasoline stocks.

I'm highly sensitive to agricultural issues and the people involved with such, BUT we also need to look at the total picture and how all of these dynamics interact. Some ethanol advocates might also claim that all of the vehicle repairs (due to E10) are helping the economy in their own way. From our side of the fence, though, it's OUR money that's being spent rather than their's, in times of economic flakiness, to fix problems which THEIR product caused. Be that as it may . . .

DO VOTE, THOUGH!!!! It's YOUR responsibility to do so!!!! Early voting has already started in many states.DO GET THOSE EMAILS SENT, CONTAINING YOUR THOUGHTS ON ULTIMATE APPROVAL OF E15 AND HIGHER BLEND LEVELS OF ETHANOL-IN-GASOLINE!!!! I sent my email last week!

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[TexRiv_63]

I've been saying for more than a decade now that we'd all see the day when gasoline for our cars would be something we bought in 5 gal. cans at the hardware store. Did you really think that the circumstances that will make that happen would be pleasent? Or that there would be viable alternatives?

Pump gas has always been for the general public's transportation. Changing times is going to mean changing fuel. We're all going to think of having to buy gas in cans as some sort of favor before this is over.

If I could find good old regular gas in 5 or 10 gallon cans I would buy it in a minute for my two prewar cars - is such a thing actually available legally?

[JoelsBuicks]

I don't know about the legality but maybe you can find a small airport and buy aviation gasoline aka Avgas. Avgas will probably be over 100 octane, which you don't need, but it has a lower vapor pressure and still has the old lead additive. The lower vapor pressure helps significantly with vapor lock. It will probably be north of $5/gallon.

-Joel

[Reatta Man]

Also, I have heard reports of marinas selling non-ethanol gas since ethanol is NOT approved in most marine engines.

On another note, I was in Branson, MO last week and noticed several stations advertising non-ethanol premium. And, once I got out of Texas and found stations selling non-ethanol gas, the mileage in my Camry hybrid went up several miles per gallon.

So, I guess to get back to Willis' point of "making a product that harms...." I guess all you need is a powerful enough lobbying group in DC and a bunch of "shovel-ready" promises to throw around.

Joe

[jscheib]

You may have it easier to find Racing Fuel (sold for off-road use only) which is also 100 octane, and that now is over $6.00 gallon, fill your own cans.

John

[Dave@Moon]

. And, once I got out of Texas and found stations selling non-ethanol gas, the mileage in my Camry hybrid went up several miles per gallon.

My Prius drops by 3-5 mpg as soon as I put PA gas in it when I go back to visit relatives there for the same reason. Hybrids are more sensitive to mileage impacts than older cars. I don't know about your Camry, but just using the a/c in either of my Priuses in city driving knocks off about the same 3-5 mpg.

My '96 Ranger barely notices the ethanol in PA.

[Dave@Moon]

The use of either av-gas or racing fuel on public roads is illegal. Perhaps we can get an exemption for registered antiques, and some kind of National gas-guide for tours and travel to shows. Otherwise our cars in the not-to-distant future might wind up marooned on "fuel islands" beyond which they have to be trailered.

Anybody at SEMA listening?

[Reatta Man]

The use of either av-gas or racing fuel on public roads is illegal.

Anybody at SEMA listening?

Dave,

That is what I was thinking when I suggested gas purchased at a marina. It has all the required taxes paid on it, so it is legal to use on the roads, as far as I know.

Joe

[NTX5467]

As "racing gas" is certified for "off-road use", the federal and state "road tax" is not included in the price.

It might be easier to find somebody selling racing gas at drag strips than to cajole somebody at a small airport to sell you avgas. Usually somebody is a local re-seller or has bought a barrell of to sell out of. I suspect it would be best to blend it with existing fuels rather than run is 100%. Either way, it's not going to be "cheap". Considering that ethanol is an octane enhancer, racing gas might not be a complete "out" either . . . check the fuel maker's website for more product information.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467