1917 Buick electrical

[redbaron1930]

Hi All;

I recently purchased a '17 Buick 6 cyl.touring car. Right now the battery is installed as a positive ground syatem. All early Buick wiring diagrams I've seen show negative ground systems. Could a positive ground system be correct or is there just no way this is right? Could the current battery have been installed incorrectly? Any insight to this would be appreciated. The car is in good shape and supposedly has run pretty recently.

Thanks

Andy

[Larry Schramm]

Should be a negative ground. If you need the wiring diagram, send me a pm with your email address so I can send it back.

[Larry Schramm]

Andy,

Here are some schematics.

Larry

[redbaron1930]

Well I finally got this car running again, but sure enough iy is set up as a positive groung system. The engine seems to run the opposite way of conventional engines (when viewed from the front of the car it rotates CCW).

The fan is set up for that rotation and the car goes forward when I put it in a forward gear!

Has anyone come across this before?

Thanks

Redbaron

[Larry Schramm]

I would correct the wiring for the vehicle as the number one thing to do. Then if it is running backwards, might need to look at the timing, etc.

[redbaron1930]

I don't think a 4 cycle engine can run backwards without a different camshaft.

The valve timming would go right from intake to exhaust.

Also the fan is made to rotate that way along with the transmission.

Someone went through a lot of trouble to do this.

[Larry Schramm]

Just for grins, do you have some pictures you can post of the engine, etc? Is it possible that it has had an engine transplant of a different manufacturer?

[redbaron1930]

Anything is possible especially after 95 years.

But the engine certailly looks like a Buick engine.

The car is actually a 1916 as I found out from the numbers.

I will try and get some pics up tomorrow.

[Guest Tishabet]

Wow, I thought my 38 had basic wiring but the wiring diagrams above are something else!

I can't imagine that your engine is running "backwards" with the positive ground, as mentioned above that would not be feasible without some extreme modification because of valve timing etc. It seems to me much more likely that someone has done some simpler modifications to make the starter motor and generator work with positive ground.

[jbbuick22]

The fan and pulley do turn ccw but the crank is turning cw, the pulley is on the cam

not the crank. The battery should be neg. ground, I hope the starter/gen has not

been damaged, as they are expensive to repair!!!

JB

22-6-55 Sport Touring

[W_Higgins]

Swapping polarity on a starter motor will not reverse it due to how they are wired internally. If in doubt, go try it and see.

Four-cycle stroke motors cannot run backward simply by reversing the direction of rotation when starting since you'd have to invent a way to breath gas vapor through the exhaust, and exhaust through the carb. Takes a major cam change to reverse rotation.

Recognizing the motor-generator set-up on your Buick is not a "typical" starter, I still don't think any of this makes a difference.

[W_Higgins]

(This was in response to previous poster Silverghost who claimed to have reversed polarity on one of his cars and found it to crank backward, and who has since deleted his replies from this thread.)

Wow, that was fast. From what kind of car was this starter? Since we deal with older stuff here, polarity makes no difference in starters using field coils, as you would have to separately reverse the polarity of both the armature and starter. Newer starters using permanent magnets are a different matter in that you only have to reverse polarity to the starter, like with low demand little fan motors and such.

At any rate, we can tell from the o.p.'s own comments that his reverse polarity is not reversing his starter, as by his own admission, his car is running!

Edited October 21, 2010 by W_Higgins (see edit history)

[W_Higgins]

Silverghost, why did you delete your posts from last night? You had two-or-three and doing that screws up the context of the thread for other readers.

[redbaron1930]

As Promised here are a few pictures of the engine.

Motor #188319 which seems to fall in the 1916 range.

For whatever reason seems like Buick made some reverse rotation engines,

you can see by the fan blades which way it turns.

[redbaron1930]

I just realized taking a good look at this picture that the fan looks like it id driven off the cam which if gear driven would rotate opposite. So the engine most likely rotates in the conventional direction, My bad, however it is still set up as positive ground system.

[W_Higgins]

Your car has a unit like this, right?:

Just happen to have one laying around. Threw a jump pack on it both ways, negative and positive ground, and rotation is the same, regardless. I took a video of it, too, but don't have a way to post those. Just for the sake of curiosity, if you'd like to see it, shoot me an email and I'll send it to you.

[redbaron1930]

Yes, that is the unit..............interesting result. I would have bet that a dc motor would run backwards with polarity reversed. I will have to try your experiment. If it runs the same way I am in buisness and just have to swap the connections on the ampmeter.

P.S. any interest in selling that starter-generator!

[W_Higgins]

Sorry, it's not my unit to sell. If you need a spare I can check around for you.

It's the innards. If it had permanent magnets inside it would run reverse rotation. It's that you're changing polarity in both the coils and armature, so it's a wash.

In addition to swapping the connections on your ammeter, you may also need to energize your generator circuit to get everything flowing the right direction, too. You can probably just leave it alone, also. It shouldn't hurt anything and you most likely don't have any other small motors running things that might now be running in reverse, anyway. Check your Buick manual, or if that fails, you really should have a Dyke's Manual to consult. They're super.

This is one of my favorite things. Every year I get a few different cars through the shop that are reverse polarity and the owners insist they must be cranking backward. Doesn't hurt anything so long as they're energized such that they're charging properly.

Reverse polarity falls into the fan category. Every now and then I run across somebody insisting their car is overheating because the fan is put on backward. You can't put a fan on backward in the sense of blade angle. If you turn it around, it still blows the same direction. Maybe not as efficiently, but the blades are still angled the same way.

Edited October 21, 2010 by W_Higgins (see edit history)

[jbbuick22]

Redbaron,

A dc motor with field windings will not change direction, it will always turn the same

way. The pulley you see turning is on the cam, which is gear driven. What does the amp

gauge show when the engine is running?? The electricial system in this car is neg.

ground. The battery is installed wrong and should be changed to the correct neg.

ground. I have seen generators charge in the reverse polarity, in later years flashing

the gen. was the process to make shure it was charging correctly. On this car

the gen motors slowly when you turn on the ign. and you hear the clicking from the

gen clutch , this does the same thing as flashing. Change to neg ground and try it,

you may not need to change anything else or rewire the amp gauge.

JB

22-6-55 Sport Touring

[redbaron1930]

Thanks for all the input thus far.

With the car running everything works fine and charges fine. I do hear the clicking that you talk about before starting the engine.

With the engine not running any lights of ignition turned on will show

discharge on the ampmeter.

[redbaron1930]

I figure while we are here, what is the best way to tell exactly what model this car is? I've been told it is a D-44 but would like to know for sure.

[jbbuick22]

If it is a touring, it is a D45, a roadster is D44, a convertable coupe is D46 , 4dr sedan is D47.

Both 1916 and 1917 use the prefex D.

JB

22-6-55 Sport Touring

[jbbuick22]

Posting the frame # will get you the year.

JB

[Larry Schramm]

If you post the frame number by the front of the left front wheel and the engine number on the left side of the engine, Dave Corbin can tell you all of the particulars of the vehicle.

[startergenrebuilder]

Just to confirm, clarify & confuse. Walter is 100% correct. A traditional field coil wound starter does not care if it is run on positive or negative ground and will rotate the same either way.

A generator also does not care whether it is positive or negative ground. It will still charge. Although it will NOT charge in reverse rotation. However, your cutout relay or regulator will care if polarity is reversed.

Just my 2 cents!

If anyone ever has questions on starting or charging issues, feel free to contact me.

Jason

Advanced Electrical Rebuilders

Grand Ledge, MI

1-866-228-0218

[Guest Roger_Roy]

As Promised here are a few pictures of the engine.

Motor #188319 which seems to fall in the 1916 range..

OT but is that the correct horn in the photos there?

Roger

[polishingpete]

Yes, that is the unit..............interesting result. I would have bet that a dc motor would run backwards with polarity reversed. I will have to try your experiment. If it runs the same way I am in buisness and just have to swap the connections on the ampmeter.

P.S. any interest in selling that starter-generator!

I have a starter-generator which I would sell, problem for you is I live in England. Don't have this era of car (mine are '28, '30 and '31) but bought it to stop someone taking it for scrap, has 1916 Buick chalked on it and would need rebuilding but must be good for spares for someone.

Kind Regards

Peter

(England)

peter_cornwell@lineone.net

[Larry Schramm]

The location of the horn is about the same as 1918 D-35 4 cylinder.

[Morgan Wright]

This is a funny thread. I wonder if the engines in Australia run backwards because they are upside down.