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rollingsculpture

HPOF question from a new guy...

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1st I would like to thanks everyone that helped with our 75th Anniversary Show. It was FANTASTIC. Nice Job to everyone!

My question...

I displayed my car at the 75th anniversary meet in the HPOF Class. I assume that it was certified since my name was called at the awards ceromony to pick up my wooden board and badge(s).

Would my car have been scored. If so how do I get a copy of my score sheet. There was was in my registration packet. I displayed it on the windshield, i assume the judges picked it up.

Who should I contact?

Thanks

Mark Tyra

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Some one else may chime in here; but I don't believe HPOF vehicles are point judged. They are EVALUATED and are either certified or not depending upon the degree of originality for the engine, interior, undercarriage and exterior. I further understand, that a vehicle must be at least 60% "original" to be certified. Is this true? Judge?

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Certification requires 65% total average percentage of original features.

In class judging, it is possible to request feedback on where points were deducted (you receive a blank judging form with the areas where deductions were taken highlighted)... I don't know if any similar thing is available for HPOF, but I can't really see how it would help as you can't take anything that is not original and make it original....

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Regarding a copy of my HPOF certification score...

The HPOF cars DO get a score sheet. I had one in my registration packet. There is a possible 100 points in each of four catagory's. It would seem that you could get a copy of the score so that you can address which isssues need to be corrected.

I am new at this, so I have many questions.

Thanks for your input,

Mark Tyra

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I don't see how you could correct "issues" on an HPOF vehicle. It's only original once. To correct anything would be "restoration" wouldn't it? If your interior is say 50% original replacing it would not make the car more original. On the contrary it would make it less original. At least that is my understanding of HPOF. Perhaps you are more interested in, over time, restoring the vehicle to the point where it can compete for awards in a regular judged class? The purpose of HPOF is to encourage owners of cars with significant original features to preserve them in the state they were in when certified.

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Mark,

In AACA Judging, you cannot get a copy of the "scores". You can request information about the areas that received deductions in class judging. This information is provided in the form of a blank judging form with the areas in which deductions were received are highlighted.

HPOF and DPC are not "judged" they are "evaluated". You can check out the judging guidelines document and lean about it at the following link:

Judges Manual

You might want to attend a judging school at your next meet. That would be the best way to really understand it.

As I said earlier, I am not sure if you can get information about areas where there were "deduictions" on HPOF or not, as anything you do to "correct" any non-original areas would lower, not raise your score.

If you want to "correct" things on your car, it sounds like you want to restore the car and enter it in class judging. While it is your car, and you can do whatever you want to do with it, if the car is substantially original, that may be a mistake.

If you still want to find out which areas that deductions were taken in, Herb Oakes is the VP of Class Judging.

His email address is:

herbfran@gibralter.net

His mailing address is:

Herb Oakes

102 Converse Drive

Jacksonville, NC 28546

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I believe that you can "correct" certain things with an HPOF car and still maintain it's integrity. Case in point, I own a '11 Hupp touring with the seat cushions redone. If I was forunate enough to find a set of original cushions and replace the redone set, would it now be non original and subject to deductions?They will be old and probably won't match as far as color goes because of different aging processes. Just asking for a judges viewpoint.---Bob

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I am not an expert, but I would think that installing an original unrestored part from another car on an HPOF car in place of a previously installed reproduction part would certainly "improve" the HPOF car but I don't see how the owner would need to see a judging sheet to know where the newer parts were on their car.

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I guess that is where I am going with the desire to see a score sheet...

If I had something installled on the car that was not original, the deduction would tell me that I needed to remove it. If I had missing parts, possibly I could locate used original parts to replace the missing parts.

There are a few cars, Corvettes and Cadillacs for example, that I know inside and out and would not need a score sheet to make needed changes or corrections. But, if you are into new territory with a car that you have never owned before, it sure would be helpful to get the experts opinion in print.

Just a thought that seemed to make sense...

Mark Tyra

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I don't know exactly what type of information that you can obtain regarding an HPOF car, but Herb would be the guy that you need to contact. Good luck.

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I would also think that finding out what deductions or comments were made in regards to something the judges thought was not original would be helpful. If they deducted something that WAS original, the owner would be able to have the opportunity to prove it IS original on the next go around.

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Contact the VP of Class Judging, Herb Oakes. His address is in the magazine on page 5 this issue I believe. The latest issue was just mailed on Friday/Monday. Please read the description of the HPOF Judging Guidelines which can be found on the home page under Meets/Tours

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I showed my truck last year at hershey in HPOF. The judges spent about 5 seconds looking at it. I brought along all the build and option sheet information, because it is strange color combination. Not one question out of the judges. I was kind of disappointed because I was so prepared with all kinds of documentation. I got my board & it's now HPOF certified. I just thought it would be harder than it was.

Long story short, I think just about every car that shows up gets certified. The 60% rule is pretty generous. Some cars didn't even have their hoods open. There were certainly a lot of repainted cars in the group, I would have classified them as cosmetic restorations, certainly not orginals. That being said, there also were a lot of time capsules.

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re: gruberv8's "...long story short, I think just about every car that shows up gets certified. The 60% rule is pretty generous. Some cars didn't even have their hoods open. There were certainly a lot of repainted cars in the group, I would have classified them as cosmetic restorations, certainly not orginals. That being said, there also were a lot of time capsules".

Hello gruberv8,

I emailed the VP of Class Judging, Herb Oakes, but never did get a reply.

I kind of feel the same way you do... If we cannot see an evalution sheet with the results, what good is HPOF Certification. I really do not need a Large Wood Board with a metal medalion to place on it. I thought I would learn something about my car's state of original condition.

I really enjoy seeing the original cars and they are certainly a draw at other shows, but if HPOF Certification Results is a Secret then it is of really no value to anyone other than having some bragging rights to bore someone who does not understand the HPOF rules.

I guess it makes the AACA a little money and helps fill the show field. I know there were plenty of cars in HPOF displayed at Hershey last year. There were plenty of interested people looking at them.

I too am pretty dissapointed. I do not think I will bother with HPOF display in the future.

Mark Tyra

Edited by rollingsculpture (see edit history)

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To achieve HPOF Certification is not an AWARD as I understand it. I believe it is an evaualtion of the cars originality. With no confirmed data or results of this certification what was there to be gained from it. You can take home an AWARD from the weekly neighborhood Dairy Queen Cruise, probably judged by the kid that makes the Blizards, but what does the AWARD really mean? It certainly is not a accurate evaluation of your car.

Why do owners of Restored Cars have their cars judged... I believe it is to learn what was restored correctly and what needs to be corrected. I assume the AACA offers the judged sheets back to the cars owner, if so I would think it is for those reasons. If not, we are back to the award thing again without any knowledge gained...

Just my thotz...

Mark Tyra

www.auburnspeedsters.com

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People show vehicles for a multitude of different reasons. Some want trophies, some want to make new friends in a hobby they already enjoy, some want to show off the work that they themselves have done and some just love sharing their vehicle with others.

The AACA judging system is a closed system as far as the scores. The way it is written in the Judging Guidelines if someone does not get the award they are seeking they can request a highlighted copy of the judging form to show where deductions were taken. The owner can then take that form and go over their vehicle with it and know what areas need attention.

You really should attend some judging schools and take some CJE classes and become educated as to how this system works.

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AACA is unique. We represent all brands foreign or domestic and cover everything that is 25 years or older. We have classes for trucks, cars, motorcycles, race cars and several variants. We have instituted both the DPC and HPOF classes which are evaluated classes and are in addition to our regular judged classes. Unlike most car clubs that have an annual show we can have 18 different national events from all over the United States! Theirin lies the complexity of giving everyone the answers they would like. We cannot satisfy every need.

The VP of Class Judging will respond to a request from someone who has not received the award he sought (see page 63 of our judging guideline) and highlight the area(s) points were deducted. We do not give out copies of the actual judging sheets. Several of our VP's have been lenient in responding to people who have won the awards in order to help out an owner make their vehicle better. However, think of the job that this volunteer person has to do. If everyone wanted a response he would be sending out 5,000 individuals letters a year! That is too much given that this same person attends every meet and is on the road at his/her own expense 30-50 days a year and that does not include going to any AACA National Tours! This is a big job!

The debate over giving out the actual score sheets will never be universally resolved. Simply, this is the way we do it given that we have more judges and need more judges than any group in the world. Having over 1,000 active judges, a 100 page judging guide, judging schools, continuous judges education, award programs for judges, certified team captains, etc. shows that we and they are serious about their duties. It was determined a long time ago that giving out the actual score sheet would be counterproductive to the club. We would be tied up in debating every score sheet, etc. Given the size of the club and our events this is just not realistic. Members have redress if we have failed in getting it right.

This is a hobby. People spend an enormous amount of time and expense so that those of us that show cars can have the fun and enjoyment of letting the public see our vehicles and can get some type of recognition for our restorations or preservations. Mark, AACA usually goes in the hole big time in regards to awards. In 2010 we got hit with a 40% increase in trophy costs. I have spent days trying to find solutions. We lose money, not make money and this has been true for many years. However, we are here to serve our membership and the hobby.

Here is my take on HPOF and actually all classes. We rely on the owner to know his car better than anyone. I know every car I have ever shown in AACA I have been far more critical of than the judges. Why? I simply know more than they do about the car I own. It should be the same in HPOF, if an owner shows it in that class we expect that they have a reasonable belief that the car meets the standards of that class. They truly believe it is mostly an original car and understand that they are showing more for the public and for fellow hobbyists then for awards. (We are upgrading the HPOF award category for next year and redesigned the repeat chip for this year.) Our judges walk up to a car expecting NO deductions, just like every car entering the show field for judging is a perfect 400 point car until such time as deficiencies are found. HPOF cars are expected to be 100% original and then points are deducted as believed necessary. I am not sure how our judges can reasonably be expected to tell the owner more about the car he has purchased, researched and spent literally hours upon hours with than in a short evaluation period on a showfield in all types of weather and conditions.

Wow, this has been more rambling than I thought and may not help at all. However, I hope something does make some sense but at least I needed to dispel any notion that the club makes money on its judging program. From a business standpoint it is a lousy deal, from a member standpoint it is the club giving back an awful lot of value for $35 a year and a registration to a meet.

I am sure I am not going to change any minds here but I hope it does give you something to think about. I cannot be on this site a lot so I might not get back here for awhile. Thanks for sharing your thoughts everyone and I hope you can support all our classes. HPOF is especially "cool" and I hope those of you that can, will continue to bring these cars out as we all love to see and admire them.

Edited by Steve Moskowitz
Lousy typist (see edit history)

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I think that Steve summed it up pretty well. I think he does have one minor typo, and I am sure he meant to say 25 years or older.

I can tell you that I am responsible for ordering the trophies for my local chapter car shows. Our trophies are nowhere near as nice as the National Meet trophies. We lose money on registration costs even with the much cheaper trophies that we award locally. With the quality of "Antique Automobile" Magazine, the quality of the Awards presented, Hosting this site, the quality events produced, Museum, and Library, I have no idea how they manage to do it all for the fees collected. The club is obviously much better than I am at getting a deal, and my wife would be happy to tell you what a cheap S.O.B that I am...

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