Spark Plug Wires

[Jim]

With the BCA meet coming up in about a month I thought I would mention to those folks having their cars judged for authenticity, the spark plug wires on the '88-90 Reattas were a gray wire with Packard imprinted on the wires in white along with white numbers for the particular cylinder.

The copy of the Reatta judging manual I have says all Reattas had gray wires but for some reason I was thinking 91s had black wires.

Barney and Stan Leslie confirmed their '91s have gray wires.

Barney, do your wires say Packard on them or Delco?

I do have some sets of the correct '88-90 wires available.

[Guest steveskyhawk]

What is to say that Barney's or Stans's car is correct? If the judges don't know what is correct at the 20 year point then when will they know? This is all about the "authority" to DEGRADE someone's car. Sounds like a fun event. Under the 400 point system a green 91 convertible with 100 miles would lose because it might have wires different from the judges car?

This 400 point judging should be replaced with people's choice. Isn't a car show supposed to be fun?

I think a vote should be taken to replace the good ol boy 400 point judging with a peoples choice event. If the club wants new members then there should be a reason to join.

[Jim]

What is to say that Barney's or Stans's car is correct? If the judges don't know what is correct at the 20 year point then when will they know? This is all about the "authority" to DEGRADE someone's car. Sounds like a fun event. Under the 400 point system a green 91 convertible with 100 miles would lose because it might have wires different from the judges car?

This 400 point judging should be replaced with people's choice. Isn't a car show supposed to be fun?

I think a vote should be taken to replace the good ol boy 400 point judging with a peoples choice event. If the club wants new members then there should be a reason to join.

I was 100% certain you would chip in and be critical of the BCA and Reatta division-------------and you did.

1. I stated "I" am not sure about the '91s. The manual say's all Reattas had gray wires. If you had ever been to a judging meet you would know that one judges does not make decisions. It is a team.

2. Barney and Stan have low mileage '91 that have never been modified. Again if you had ever been to a judging meet you would know original cars are used very often to set standards. Stan has two '91s he bought new with about 5000 actual miles.

3. I am also certain 100% of the folks entering a judging meet are not doing so, so their cars can be "degraded" but are having their cars judged so they can find out what they need to do to make them like new.

4. We never list all the things wrong when we find a car that has lots of things wrong. We take off some points and then the owner is sent the judging sheet if he wants it and also the team captain can talk to the owner and go over the sheets and also mention to him there are other things he can fix later if he wants. One of the things we are always told in the pre judging seminars is "dont kill the car".

5. The meets are for everyone. Those that want their cars judged against new standards, those that want to just participate for the fun of it and have their cars on display with the others and folks with modified cars to show their handiwork and be appreciated by all attending.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Jim (see edit history)

[Guest steveskyhawk]

Thanks for making my point. How do you know that all cars came with grey wires? Did GM buy all their wires from the same vendor? Maybe, mayby not. So if your car has better paint and better interior it gets degraded because it doesn't have wires that match barney's. Sound like a great way to fix the game.

This being the case the brand and color of wire cant be positively determined. I conclude that wire color should not be part of the judgeing system. Eliminate it. Simple. Remember what they said. "Don't kill the car". Who in their right mind would care if their if the ignition wires matched their valve stems caps?

It is obvious that people's choice would be fair and much more fun. (Unless of course you idea of fun is finding fault with other people's cars.)

If the BCA and more specifically the Reatta Division is going to grow this "make it up as we go" attitude needs to end. It is NO fun.

Edited June 24, 2010 by steveskyhawk (see edit history)

[padgett]

Having set up a platinum class for a major club (and gotten embroiled in a dispute when Delco-Packard switched from Embossed to SilkScreened plug wires...) I just kibitz these days (and often spot 20-50 points worth the current judges do not)

Frankly, NONE of my cars are stock, there have been simply too many improvements, many safety related, in the last two decades to want a stock car from the last century (not to say I don't have all the stock parts for my Judge, just would not drive it that way).

For example both the white and blue cars have 16x7 wheels and 225x60x16s that add to the "bulldog" look from the rear, only the black car has stock wheels and tires because I have not decided what to do with it (and I could not find another set of 16x7 crosslaces).

As for grey plug wires, all now have Delco ignitions and Rapidfire #14s, neither of which were available when any of my Reattae were built so the plug wire issue is moot.

Part of the issue is that all of my cars are "drivers" and automatically cannot meet a 400 point criteria, I leave that to trailer queens).

I do understand the competitive spirit that is behind points judging, just mine is expressed differently (see Judge shot in .sig).

This does beg the question of what items do the judges consider replaceable e.g. Didn't AC type 47 Oil filters have a different logo in the '80s ? Should they be painted engine color ? Poorly ? (Something about the drips on the underside of a Corvette trunk lid...)

ps I expect Jim will sell out of his sets of correct wires quickly, if I had a set it would be in a big baggie "just in case".

Edited June 24, 2010 by padgett (see edit history)

[Guest Seriousmojo]

Hey......where is the meet being held?

[Jim]

This year the BCA nationals are at Ames Iowa. July 28-31.

[Guest mgibson]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for trying to be helpful! FYI, both my 91s have grey Packard numbered spark plug wires. Being 1991 models, they have black tire valve stem caps too.

[Guest steveskyhawk]

JF said "I was 100% certain you would chip in and be critical of the BCA and Reatta division-------------and you did." Because he knows he is out of line and attempts to suppress other's opinions.

The passive forum readers whom I write for can see that I am not critical of the BCA or the Reatta Division of it. I am a member with an opinion. My opinions have never been welcomed by the cronies on this forum and I couldn't care any less. In this case I have exposed how some of its members EXPLOIT the club for monetary gain.

In my opinion the Club will be much more successful and fun if the judging was done in such a way that judges looked for what is right about a car instead of what is wrong. The average person knows what they like in a car. They don't need or want a manual to tell them that a rustbucket with grey wires and valve stem caps outscores a pristine corrosion free sunbelt car with those dreaded black wires.

I guess I'd rather be the optimist where I look at the cup as half full rather than half empty.

[Barney Eaton]

Just for the record, my 1991 wires are grey and stamped Packard in white every 3-4 inches, each wire has the cylinder number also stamped in white.

Sometimes this discussion is like a cartoon. I believe the passive readers here are smart enough to determine for themselves the value of the information here and also make their own decision on any posters that are attempting to exploit them.

When you are a member of the BCA and choose to take your vehicle (any Buick) to a meet/show you often have several choices. Small shows have peer judging, mainly because they cannot round up enough judges..... remember doing a full blown judged event takes lots of coordination and planning.

Except for the BCA National meet, there are only 3-4 other Regional meets each year that have enough cars (to justify classes) and people to pull off the 400 point judging.

At the National meet, you have the choice of (1) DISPLAYING your Buick, (2) entering it in ARCHIVAL (3) MODIFIED (4) DRIVEN class (5) 400 point judging. All the classes have a specific criteria so you must read the classification section of the judging manual.

Because the Reattas are one of the newest Buicks, they do not qualify for ARCHIVAL or DRIVEN because the Buick must be 25 years old.... so 1988 Reattas will be accepted in those classes 3 years.

I do not have the meet records available but every year, we have more Reattas entered in the 400 point judging than ANY other class. On top of that, we have an additional 20% that are there in the DISPLAY class. We have one Reatta owner that almost always wins the long distance award for post war cars. The Reatta division also sponsors the Pre-war and Post war long distance awards.

Back at the Danvers meet around 1998 some Reatta Division members started meeting somewhere West of Danvers so they could all drive into the meet together. This became the Reatta Rendezvous.... the format has changed, each year during the meet, we go on a predetermined tour that ends at a place to eat. Depending on the year, we will have 30-60 Reattas in a resturant parking lot and we spend a couple hours together. Each year the Rendezvous host tries to out-do the previous year and there have been some unique remberances handed out to the people on the Rendezvous.

When appropriate, we also try to stay in the same hotel. This makes staging the Rendezvous tour easier and we can help other Reatta owners with their problems in the parking lot. Experienced owners point out areas that may cause point deductions and often help them correct the item before the judging. Along these lines, I know one member that gives 1988-1990 owners grey valve stem covers so their car will not have deductions for that item. I guess this is just one example of Reatta members exploiting others?

We have our once a year Reatta Division meeting at the National meet. If we are in our own hotel we often have it there for the convenience of the Reatta owners.

If you look closely at the new member listing in the Bugle, count the number of new members that own Reattas. They have been building Buicks for 108 years, Reattas were made for four, but the number of new members each month with Reattas is often 10%. The Reatta division is growing twice as faster as the BCA on that basis.

[Ronnie]

If you look closely at the new member listing in the Bugle, count the number of new members that own Reattas. They have been building Buicks for 108 years, Reattas were made for four, but the number of new members each month with Reattas is often 10%. The Reatta division is growing twice as faster as the BCA on that basis.

I would still like to see a standalone Reatta club, separate from the BCA, but I doubt it will ever happen. Your post seems to suggest the numbers are there to do it. It just seems to me that for the amount of money it costs to be a member of the BCA and the Reatta Division that so much more could be done for Reatta owners if all the money went to a club just for Reatta owners. I'm not trying to upset the status quo. I know a lot of people are happy with it. It just seems so much more could be done if the club was separate.

[Guest steveskyhawk]

BE says "Just for the record, my 1991 wires are grey and stamped Packard in white every 3-4 inches, each wire"

Notice the word "my" in the quote? I repeat just because Barney's car has grey wires doesn't mean they all had grey wires. The 400 point judging should be renamed the "just like Barney's car" event. His database was created the same way. He fills in fields on what he thinks should be there as opposed to confirmed data.

And I don't want to stay at a hotel where the other guests go out to the parking lot and tell each other what is "wrong" with their cars because it isn't exactly like Barneys.

Funny that this 400 point nonsense doesn't require anything to actually work.

In reality does any of this really matter? Of course not. I do however object to some people's attempt to dominate this forum and their efforts to exploit the club and this forum for profit.

As far as the stats on growth go the increase in Reatta division membership is easily explained by the age of the new members. The growth is certainly not a reflection of the club's inclusiveness. The club is devoid of inclusiveness thanks to the cronies. Heaven forbid a different opinion here.

Edited June 25, 2010 by steveskyhawk (see edit history)

[DAVES89]

The only one I see trying to "dominate" is you Steve.

[Jim]

BE says "Just for the record, my 1991 wires are grey and stamped Packard in white every 3-4 inches, each wire"

Notice the word "my" in the quote? I repeat just because Barney's car has grey wires doesn't mean they all had grey wires. The 400 point judging should be renamed the "just like Barney's car" event. His database was created the same way. He fills in fields on what he thinks should be there as opposed to confirmed data.

And I don't want to stay at a hotel where the other guests go out to the parking lot and tell each other what is "wrong" with their cars because it isn't exactly like Barneys.

Funny that this 400 point nonsense doesn't require anything to actually work.

In reality does any of this really matter? Of course not. I do however object to some people's attempt to dominate this forum and their efforts to exploit the club and this forum for profit.

As far as the stats on growth go the increase in Reatta division membership is easily explained by the age of the new members. The growth is certainly not a reflection of the club's inclusiveness. The club is devoid of inclusiveness thanks to the cronies. Heaven forbid a different opinion here.

I keep telling myself "dont get caught up in Steve's crap, just ignore him" but then he say's something stupid and I fall into his trap of ongoing negativism.

I sent Steve a personal email about a month ago along with some PM's saying lets all try and get along. He ignored every attempt to be civil and did not respond.

I am going to ignore all of the negative things in this quote except where he says he has a problem with someone exploiting this forum for profit.

I have been a member of this forum for 11 years and have over 1400 posts. This is a guess but I would say 75% of those posts have nothing to do with parts selling but were for the purpose of helping out forum members with questions about their cars.

For 10 1/2 years I didn't even have a signature at the bottom mentioning that I have parts available. I added it last month only because Steve has two.

If anyone is exploiting something it is Steve, using this forum to sell his parts.

I could care less if Steve sells parts and anyone wanting to get parts from him or anywhere else is fine with me.

LETS ALL GET ALONG AND QUIT THE NEGATIVISM.

Lets all participate in this forum positively and if we have a problem with something, state your ideas and then let it go. Steve, we know you would prefer peer judging. Move on positively.

I will credit Steve for making me aware that we can have a signature at the bottom and I also credit his friend for making me aware to always do a quote when replying. Once the quote is added to the new post, even if the original poster deletes his misleading of stupid post it will still be there for all to see in the quote portion of the new post.

What I am referring to is in the past I have seen some posts that simply didn't make sense or were inflammatory but when looking for them later they were gone. Deleted by the original poster.

They say once you put something on the internet it is there forever but not so in this forum. In this forum posts can be deleted. I think this is good and bad.

Good because yesterday as part of this thread I posted something about someone and it was on for a couple of hours. I realized I should not be posting something like that and deleted it.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Jim (see edit history)

[Vincent Vega]

Here we go.

[Guest steveskyhawk]

For the record I never sent Jim Finn a Rodney King type email that suggested that "we just get along". I dont drink the Koolaid like the cronies. I have my own opinions and dont personally care if they coincide with anybody's. I wont be intimidated or run off.

Once again for the record: Will you publicly admit that you are spoon fed parts orders from Barney Eaton? Sorry Jim but you forced me to let the cat out of the bag.

[Guest mongeonman]

I never said anything about this but today i am...lately i have read to much of this on this forum,some members act like 6 years old kids,i c ant beleive what i read sometimes,what is going on???this is stupid!!!those who d ont like what i just wrote just go at it ,i can take it and i w ont take it personal cause i know where it comes from,if you want to do things like this,just do it using the personal message option,we d ont need to know(read) all of this.

[Jim]

I never said anything about this but today i am...lately i have read to much of this on this forum,some members act like 6 years old kids,i c ant beleive what i read sometimes,what is going on???this is stupid!!!those who d ont like what i just wrote just go at it ,i can take it and i w ont take it personal cause i know where it comes from,if you want to do things like this,just do it using the personal message option,we d ont need to know(read) all of this.

Vincent and Mongeoman,

You are right and I sincerely apologize. I hate this stuff and do and will try and avoid it.

This post started out simply about gray wires and degraded.

I will not post any further on this thread unless it is about gray wires.

Jim

[padgett]

I like blue wires. That said I replaced a set of gray wires that I keep in a baggie next to the Manavox ignitions, the 14x6 Rally IIs for the Judge and the original white spoiler (I like flat black better).

Does sound like my updates would put them in Modified anyway. No big since I usually opt for "Display".

Too bad Orlando is just so far from anywhere, four hours just to clear Florida.

So "different strokes for different folks", that's what makes it fun.

[Rawja]

Look guys, by definition we're all more than a little obsessed and perhaps a bit too passionate about Reattas.

That said, I don't understand why it's necessary to have the constant bickering about the same old subjects again and again. 400-point judging is not for me as I find it stifling and a tad fetishistic, but if the "as it rolled off the assembly line" thing is what excites you, go for it. No one is forced to submit their cars to 400-point judging and there are plenty of us that appreciate mods to the original design.

I really fail to see the rationale of bristling at the notion that OTHERS are into the 400-point process. Getting further excited about the parameters used for the judging process in which you've already indicated that you have no interest in participating makes even less sense.

I don't care about grey valve caps, spark plug wires or any the minutia that the 400-point crowd obsesses over, but if that's their thing who am I to crap all over it? My Reatta-obsessions are no less silly then theirs, but it brings me enjoyment. Same thing goes for someone who puts 24" spinners and other over the top mods on their ride, it's their expression of their personal taste and love for their automobile. As long as it's not a carriage top... those people should be shot.

I'm all excited about putting in RED spark plug wires to match my Optima battery and ACCEL coils.

Do you have any idea how crazy my "normal" appliance-driving friends think I am? ..and you know what, they're right. So step outside yourselves and take a good hard look before criticizing others, because clearly we're all frackin' nuts.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Rawja (see edit history)

[89REATTAJIM]

Amen, Roger, I am somewhat of a purist, but if the parts are not redily available, I will go with what I can get. Right now, I have 2 black, 1 gray, and 1 chrome valve cap. I enjoy driving my R, and would not enjoy it any more with 4 gray caps. But, if 4 grays were redily available, they would be on the car. I too am getting tired of all the personal critisim on the forum......... Jim

[Doug Harness]

This seems appropriate:

“People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they're not on your road doesn't mean they've gotten lost.”

--H. Jackson Brown Jr.

[Barney Eaton]

Jim or anyother Reatta owner that needs grey valve caps..... I give them away at every national meet to anyone that needs them as long as the 500 I purchased lasts.

If you are in need of one or two, check the spare tire on GM cars in the salvage yard, they often have the grey valve caps.

[Roadster90]

Somewhere along the line someone with some authority told me (I am guessing about 5 years ago and I honestly forget who) that as long as I had gray a/c delco wires I was good to go for judging.....well about $130.00 and 3 hours of work later the a/c Delco wires are on my cars. How many points are alloted to wires, and are any points given for the wires at least being gray? It is unlikely that my cars will be judged as the meet/s so far have never been withing reach for me, but I just like having the cars as nice and as stock/OEM as possible.

Edited June 28, 2010 by nic walker (see edit history)

[Barney Eaton]

Here is a link to the online judging manual

http://www.reatta.org/ReattaJudgingManual.pdf

Points are not added.... you start with a perfect 400 points and points (see manual) are deducted by the judges for things that are missing, damaged, dirty/rusty, and incorrect.

I just looked at the online manual and the judging sheets are not included, you really need them to get an idea of the points value for each item. I will contact someone and see if we can get the sheets added.

As an example.... there are some things that are carryover from the standard BCA sheets to the "Modern" BCA sheets.... the modern sheets are use for newer Buicks that have things like power windows and a/c that older Buicks did not have.

With that in mind some items that are "mandantory deductions" and if you have points deducted on a mandantory item, you car cannot be rated as a Senior car.

Examples of mandantory items would be a non-buick engine, non-authentic wheels, non-authentic color.

Another example.... under Exterior, there are items like Doors, Fenders, Hood, etc

A Hood is given 5 total points and the max of 5 would only be deducted if the hood was missing. A dented, bad paint hood would be up to the judges but the max they could take is 4 points if the hood is on the car.

The above example repeats for all areas of the car.

[padgett]

There was an old joke about an army physical that a candidate had an appendage missing but was passed because there was nothing wrong with it, it just was not there.

[Booreatta]

Here is a link to the online judging manual

http://www.reatta.org/ReattaJudgingManual.pdf

Points are not added.... you start with a perfect 400 points and points (see manual) are deducted by the judges for things that are missing, damaged, dirty/rusty, and incorrect.

I just looked at the online manual and the judging sheets are not included, you really need them to get an idea of the points value for each item. I will contact someone and see if we can get the sheets added.

As an example.... there are some things that are carryover from the standard BCA sheets to the "Modern" BCA sheets.... the modern sheets are use for newer Buicks that have things like power windows and a/c that older Buicks did not have.

With that in mind some items that are "mandantory deductions" and if you have points deducted on a mandantory item, you car cannot be rated as a Senior car.

Examples of mandantory items would be a non-buick engine, non-authentic wheels, non-authentic color.

Another example.... under Exterior, there are items like Doors, Fenders, Hood, etc

A Hood is given 5 total points and the max of 5 would only be deducted if the hood was missing. A dented, bad paint hood would be up to the judges but the max they could take is 4 points if the hood is on the car.

The above example repeats for all areas of the car.

Barney list the points need for gold, silver and bronze

I can remember when I won a gold my wife was so excited she took it home and had is bronzed..............just kidding