point deductions

[Guest j gary dilaura]

I just showed my car in the Canadaigua Show. I know we can't find out what our score was but can we find out what the deficiences were? For example, can we get a copy of the score sheet with the numbers blocked out? Otherwise how can we improve on the car?

[Guest billybird]

Yes. Unless the process has changed, you can write a very friendly letter to the Vice President of Class Judging and express your desire for a highlighted score sheet.

[Guest j gary dilaura]

Thank you for your reply. How do I find out who the VP of Class judging is ?

[R W Burgess]

Herb Oakes

102 Converse Drive

Jacksonville, NC 28546

[MCHinson]

Gary,

They have answered your question correctly. I see that you have a Mustang. That is always a very competive class. A Second Junior is still a pretty major accomplishment in any of the Mustang Classes.

Herb will send you the information that will assist you in trying to improve your car in hopes of a 1st Junior next time. It will be a blank judging form with the areas in which points were deducted on your car highlighted. Good Luck!

Also, welcome to the AACA Discussion Forum. You will find a lot of good information on here and some great folks to answer questions that you may have.

[Guest j gary dilaura]

Matt, Thank you much. I was skeptical about my first AACA show but I do have to say it was the most organized and well run show I have ever attended bar none! Parking my trailer next to the show field with plenty of room to hook up and dis hook, room to load and unload ,show field well organized and marked . Great job. The awards banquet was a little long but the food offset that some. I don't know how you could shorten the awards, unless you were to skip over eveyboby else and just jump to yours and my class!! We've been showing Vetts for years and just finished my Shelby last Fall. We do intend to try to improve on the car and see if we can move up to a Senior. Thanks again! Gary

[Restorer32]

Interesting discussion at the Team Captain's CJE at Canandaigua. The question was asked "What if a person with a car that scored 400 points requests their judging sheet?". The response was that they would be told that there were no deductions. So apparently it IS possible to find out what your score was IF your car merited NO deductions.

[Shop Rat]

Interesting discussion at the Team Captain's CJE at Canandaigua. The question was asked "What if a person with a car that scored 400 points requests their judging sheet?". The response was that they would be told that there were no deductions. So apparently it IS possible to find out what your score was IF your car merited NO deductions.

As I remember it, when it first started that owners could request a highlighted copy of their judging sheet to make repairs/corrections etc., it was done for folks that did not get the award they were going after. So that would have eliminated folks finding out they scored 400 points.

[MCHinson]

It is a very subtle difference but, I have heard Herb Oakes explain that when someone writes requesting the highlighted judging sheet on a 400 point car, they are told "I can't send you one." Which essentially says 400 points without actually saying 400 points.

[Restorer32]

I really don't know how else it could be handled.

[Shop Rat]

I was correct in what I remembered. Here are the rules from the 2010 Official Judging Guidelines. I found this on page 62. I have highlighted the part that is being discussed here.

2. VICE PRESIDENT-CLASS JUDGING

The Vice President-Class Judging is appointed by the AACA National President and is a National Director. He/she is Chairman of the Class Judging Committee, approves the selection of all Chief Judges at all National Meets, oversees in general the judges training program, is the final authority on matters in question involving judging, retains the completed Meet judging forms for the past two years, and replies to questions involving class judging (technical questions that are involved

with the restoration of a vehicle should be directed to the Vice President

Technical Matters). Vehicle owners competing for but not receiving a First Junior, Senior, AGNM 1st, or AGNM Senior award may request, in writing, judging information from the VP – Class Judging that would

indicate why the award was not given.

[MCHinson]

Susan,

You are right. That IS what the judging guidelines state.

I know that the judging guidelines still indicate that you can get that information if you did not receive the award you were going for but, I think they must plan to change the wording in the judging guidelines.

I do know that Herb Oakes, the VP of Class Judging, has said that they have changed the policy on that and I know people who have requested and received information from Herb even though they got the award they were seeking.

So, yes you can write Herb and ask for information about what area that points were deducted on a vehicle even if you receive the award that you are going for.

I think it is an improvement in the system to allow access to this information in that manner, but it does pose this small problem in the case of a 400 point vehicle.

[RonHeberle]

I don't know how else you would handle that either. Can't imagine there are many in that category.

[Shop Rat]

.....I do know that Herb Oakes, the VP of Class Judging, has said that they have changed the policy on that and I know people who have requested and received information from Herb even though they got the award they were seeking.

Hopefully they will change the wording for the 2011 Guidelines since you say the ploicy has been changed.

.....I think it is an improvement in the system to allow access to this information in that manner, but it does pose this small problem in the case of a 400 point vehicle.

I agree that being told where problem areas are would be helpful, especially to owners that recently bought a vehicle and may not know that items were changed incorrectly before it was purchased by them. We are up against that with the 1974 Mercedes 450SL that we bought two years ago. We know that things were done that may not be correct. We are in the process of putting together what it should be to be correct.

I just hope it doesn't open a big can of worms to where folks want to challege everything and give the VP of Class Judging a big headache. :eek:

[Restorer32]

Not many 400 point cars around but they do show up now and then. In my judging experience, maybe 50 or so actual judging experiences, our team has judged I think three. One stands out. It was a plain Jane lower priced British sports car. Nothing at all fancy about it, or even very valuable, but it was superbly restored.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I really don't have a horse in this race, and maybe I have missed something, but can you explaine the reason for not revealing scores? Not trying to bust anybodys chops, just to understand.

Thanks

Ben

[msmazcol]

Blood can be shed over those numbers!!

LOL

[R W Burgess]

I really don't have a horse in this race, and maybe I have missed something, but can you explaine the reason for not revealing scores?

Thanks

Ben

AACA judges are volunteer workers. Sometimes they make mistakes, even though they are well trained. You accept this fact when you put your car on the show field. Therefore, giving one the general area of deductions with an antique automobile is the proper way to help one improve the condition of the vehicle without getting stressed out over "numbers".

Wayne

[R W Burgess]

I should add First Born, that you should attend an AACA Judging School to learn all about our judging system. It's easy and fun!

Wayne

[Shop Rat]

I should add First Born, that you should attend an AACA Judging School to learn all about our judging system. It's easy and fun!

Wayne

And it's free. Folks get a copy of the current year's Official Judging Guidelines to look through....for free. The class is free and the book is free. To just buy a judging guidelines is $5.00.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Thanks, Wayne and Susan. If I am ever able to attend an AACA meet , may do that.

Ben

[charlier]

AACA judges are volunteer workers. Sometimes they make mistakes, even though they are well trained. You accept this fact when you put your car on the show field. Therefore, giving one the general area of deductions with an antique automobile is the proper way to help one improve the condition of the vehicle without getting stressed out over "numbers".

Wayne

Wayne, you hit the nail on the head with this response.

I have judged at 100s of non AACA car shows over the years. A few of those shows will permit the car owner to see their score sheet after the event. I have found that less than 1% of those car owners truly care about improving their cars. The other 99%+ are just looking to find out "why they didn't win a trophy" and vent on someone (almost always the judges of the car). I have been the recipient of that venting more than a few times and I can say without a doubt it is not a nice situation. In some cases, other judges who were vented upon stopped judging because they did not need or want the grief.

The way in which the AACA gives out the general areas for improvement instead of giving out actual scores or no information at all is a compromise, no two ways about it. Personally, it is one compromise that as a car owner and judge I can live with.

[Restorer32]

I have been contacted at least twice after National Meets by owners of vehicles the team I was on judged wanting to know actual scores and why they did not receive the award they were hoping for( that sentence can't be grammatically correct but you get the point). One was persistent to the point of being obnoxious. I can't imagine the problems if raw scores were made public.

[Shop Rat]

I have been contacted at least twice after National Meets by owners of vehicles the team I was on judged wanting to know actual scores and why they did not receive the award they were hoping for( that sentence can't be grammatically correct but you get the point). One was persistent to the point of being obnoxious. I can't imagine the problems if raw scores were made public.

My first question would be how did they find you? As far as I know they don't get a list of who the Team Captain and judges are that judge their vehicle(s). The Team Captain is supposed to introduce themselves before judging begins, but even with that name I would be interested to know how they tracked you down. That is rather scary.

[RonHeberle]

I have not had that yet but see your point Restorer32. I beleive our system is pretty good and fair. If someone is really interested in improving their vehicle they should be able to figure it out by requesting a judging sheet with highlighted areas indicating were points were taken. The raw numbers aren't important the areas needing improvement are important. The more I am around it the more I realize our judging system is pretty darn good, nothing is perfect but some folks will always complain.

[Restorer32]

Not sure how they got my name and contact info. Possibly saw me at our flea market spaces and picked up a biz card or asked the owner of a car we may have been showing at the same time? I don't think it would be particularly difficult to find out who a Team Captain was if you really wanted to.

[Shop Rat]

Not sure how they got my name and contact info. Possibly saw me at our flea market spaces and picked up a biz card or asked the owner of a car we may have been showing at the same time? I don't think it would be particularly difficult to find out who a Team Captain was if you really wanted to.

That very well might be how they found out. And my husband pointed out that they might know someone that is a judge or Team Captain that had the list and let them look at it. Many times the list has where the judges are from. From there it is a short jump to the internet to find people. However, that is a totally wrong use of that list. Owners should NOT be tracking down and harrassing judges/Team Captains. In many states that would be considered stalking and they could face charges for that.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

My thoughts are that an owner that does this is far to a**l. This is supposed to be FUN. I enjoy a little competion as well as the next, but will not get carried away. Knowing what and where to improve should be enough.

Come to Ames in July and you can sit in my car.!! I will even take your picture. I plan on having FUN!!

That's all

Ben

[Guest billybird]

I understand why actual scores are not revealed. I'm happy that I have been successful at all levels of AACA competition, so I don't have anything to complain about. However, I think it would be naive to believe that occasionally a score is not revealed.

[Guest j gary dilaura]

I believe the manner in which the AACA judges the shows is good. A team captain overseeing the judging and a group each judging an area of the car. As long as the people in the group have expertise, its good. I can see that if someone is not knowlegeable, that the car owner would suffer, so to provide the area that points were deducted would serve several purposes. First, it helps the owner to make improvements and second helps the AACA to weed out judges that may lack the expertise they said they had. For example, if an area where points were deducted was the glass and the glass on the car is 100% original and clean ,bringing this to the attention of the judge who scored it would be a leanring experience for him as well.To disclose the actual score really serves no usefull purpose. It would only cause problems. The feedback should work both ways. This would improve all involved if the judge learned that he had errored on the glass as he thought it was not original, for example. Gary

[Shop Rat]

..... As long as the people in the group have expertise, its good. I can see that if someone is not knowlegeable, that the car owner would suffer, .....

Probably most folks that judge didn't start out with lots of expertise on all four portions of a vehicles. They might know more about one brand, era etc. than others. They might know more about one of the areas, engine, chassis, interior or exterior, than the other three areas. That is why we get to put down at least four choices of classes that we would like to judge. If judging is done as it should be, with a good Team Captain at the helm, new judges will be helped, watched over and gently guided into being a top quality judge down the road. This is a team effort. We get back together to talk about the vehicles before deductions are marked down on the main judging sheet that came with the vehicle.

.....First, it helps the owner to make improvements and second helps the AACA to weed out judges that may lack the expertise they said they had.

Trust me when I tell you this, judges are monitored through the judging sheets and the Team Captain's comment sheets. Team Captains are monitored by the comment sheet that the team fills out and the Team Captain's Assistant hands in at the Admin. desk. Action is taken if there is an issue.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Shop Rat (see edit history)

[Jim Bollman]

If you really want to find out what's wrong with your car get to know a judge and have them do a once over. I have done this on several cars over the years. I can usually tell them in a few minutes if they have a chance and what they can fix easily to save a few points at minimal cost.

The exact points that are deducted for a problem varies from judge to judge, so an exact number doesn't mean much anyway accept for bragging rights.

[Guest billybird]

Here is a question for some judges that I've always wondered about. If a vehicle has, lets say three paint chips that have been touched up with a brush; would you take off one point for each chip or one point for "chips". I'm not talting about big chips, certainly no larger than a pencil eraser.

[Shop Rat]

Here is a question for some judges that I've always wondered about. If a vehicle has, lets say three paint chips that have been touched up with a brush; would you take off one point for each chip or one point for "chips". I'm not talting about big chips, certainly no larger than a pencil eraser.

Speaking only for myself, having judged exteriors quite a few times, it would depend on what the repairs looked like having been done with a brush. As neat as is possible for three small chips, one point. Less than neat repair, two points. Looks like the three year old I baby-sit for did it :eek: , three points.

[Guest billybird]

Fair enough. Thanks.

[Bhigdog]

What would you deduct for all the fish eyes that came, factory applied, on the front fender of my Explorer? ...............Bob

[Restorer32]

No deduction for factory fish eyes if I were judging the car. If it was obvious you had repainted the fender and the fish eyes were only on the repainted parts I might deduct a point or two.

[Jim Bollman]

Many years ago I was going to take a point off for a paint run on the firewall of a Willys Wagon. The team captain had already been told that the paint was original. No deduction.

I have a set of pictures of a 49 Crosley Wagon that were taken on the dealer lot. The wrinkles in the upholstery you would have a hard time duplicating for a proper restoration.

[Shop Rat]

.....I have a set of pictures of a 49 Crosley Wagon that were taken on the dealer lot. The wrinkles in the upholstery you would have a hard time duplicating for a proper restoration.

As I have mentioned before, not many shops (or maybe none at all) would put out what would be considered shoddy work, even if it is an exact duplication of what came from the factory. Only the very most hardcore purist would ask for that.

[Guest billybird]

I would have a hard time duplicating a factory paint run because about the only time I get a run in paint is when I'm trying NOT to! LOL.