Coolant

[Guest nhyr2009]

Hello,

Today I went for a drive in the Buick and the temperature crawled up to and stayed at 180 degrees. What is the best thing to use for coolant. Currently I just use water. Is there something that will cool down the engine more on a hot day?

I have a 1927 Buick Master (Model 50)

Ethan

[Barney Eaton]

I am trying a "water wetter" in my 1939. It has never overheated but runs so close to boiling on a 100 degree Texas day that it is troublesome. I have no problems on the open road.... just in town at lights. I did a lot of reading about the claims and for a $10 investment, I figured it was worth a try.

[Larry Schramm]

My truck ran hot until I put a 50/50 Prestone antifreeze/coolant mixture into it. Has been running well since. An added bonus is the water pump packing no longer leaks like it was.

[Guest Straight eight]

Here is the stuff, it'll lower operating temperature by 20 degrees

Coolant Additives - Fact Or Fiction Luke Munnell Debunking Tuning Myths

Can Coolant Additives Help Your Car Run Cooler?

From the August, 2008 issue of Import Tuner

Redline's Water Wetter has been on the market for years now, promising to knock up to 30 degrees off your car's running temperature by simply adding it in place of conventional glycol (antifreeze) coolant in your car's cooling system. It sounds gimmicky, but racers swear by the stuff, and Redline actually provides independent testing and scientific explanations on their site to "prove" Water Wetter's mettle. Naturally, it stood out as a great Fact or Fiction candidate.

As heat generated by an engine is transferred to coolant, localized boiling often occurs where coolant and metal meet. Since coolant absorbs heat far better in liquid form than as a gas, maximizing cooling efficiency means minimizing the amount of boiling coolant gas (vapor) that contacts the engine's metal. According to technical data available on Redline's website, Water Wetter reduces the surface tension of liquid coolant; in short, allowing smaller vapor bubbles to form when boiling, which can more easily move away from the metal's surface-meaning more liquid can contact the hot metal surface for better heat transfer.

The Test

Most cars' factory temperature gauges aren't known for their accuracy, so we called upon Auto Meter gauges to monitor this month's testing. With a 0-400 degree gauge monitoring coolant temperature at our '93 Miata subject car's radiator outlet, and a 0-250 degree gauge monitoring its cylinder head temperature at three specific points, we put the car through three different stages of testing, with the car's cooling system first filled either with the manufacturer-recommended 1:1 water/glycol (antifreeze) mix, or with the Redline-specified 32:1 water/Water Wetter mix.

Test 1

Idle Temperatures

From a cold start, the Miata was idled to operating temperature and monitored through three cycles of maximum and minimum temperature fluctuation, governed by its automatic electric radiator fans, and temperatures were recorded. Coolant temperature remained consistent, as it triggers the operation of the fans, but the Miata's cylinder head ran an average of 5 degrees cooler with the Water Wetter mixture than with the glycol mix.

Water Wetter: -3 degrees cylinder head temp. 0 degrees coolant temp (F˚)

max. coolant min. coolant max. cylinder head min. cylinder head

water/glycol 221 185 203 200

water/Water Wetter 220 185 198 195

Coolant Additives - Fact Or Fiction Luke Munnell Debunking Tuning Myths

Test 2

Mixed Terrain Road Driving

Driving the same section of public road route three times over for each coolant option, average maximum, minimum, and mean temperatures were recorded for the coolant and cylinder head temperatures. Coolant temperatures dropped considerably, when Water Wetter was used, as did maximum recorded cylinder head temperatures.

Water Wetter -5 degrees cylinder head temp, 10 degrees coolant temp (F°)

max. coolant min. coolant mean coolant max. head min. head mean head

water/glycol 163 145 156 183 171 172

water/Water Wetter 152 135 145 172 169 170

Test 3

Sustained Driving

Driving the same selection of deserted freeway three times over, the average temperature sustained by each coolant option was recorded at radiator outlet and cylinder head. The Water Wetter mix wins again; cooler all around.

Water Wetter -13 degrees coolant temp, -6 degrees cylinder head temp drop (F˚)

mean coolant mean head

water/glycol 160 172

water/Water Wetter 147 166

The Verdit:

Redline's Water Wetter did lower the operating temperature of our Miata. Was it by as much as the bottle's 30-degree claim? No, but we did see a difference of up to 13 degrees. As stated earlier, Water Wetter works by changing the boiling characteristics of an engine's coolant; its performance grows proportionately with how hot a particular engine runs. If the cooling system of your Miata's B6ZE engine is efficient enough to ward off high temperatures on its own-don't look for a coolant additive to work miracles. On the other hand, if the your 300 hp-per-liter 4G63 is running a little on the hot side and all the goodies under your EVO's hood limit space for a bigger radiator...a coolant additive like Water Wetter might be just what the tuner ordered.

Redline Synthetic Oil Corp.

Dept. 5.0

Benicia

CA 94510 Auto Meter

(815) 899-0800

Edited June 9, 2010 by Straight eight (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Here is the stuff, it'll lower operating temperature by 20 degrees

Water will transfer heat better than coolant (antifreeze) mixtures, but will boil at 212* F or 100* C. Coolant mixtures will marginally raise the boiling point of the system. Pressurized systems will substantially raise the boiling point. The actual temperature is not the problem, boil over is. Water wetter will improve the heat transfer of the coolant mixture back to nearly as good a water while retaining the other good properties of coolant. Water wetter will not improve the heat transfer of plain water in the system.

Willie

[msmazcol]

180 is a great number. I'm visiting Buick land but own an Oldsmobile. I run 50/50 with the Water Wetter. I would rejoice for 180 on a hot day!

[Patrick W. Brooks]

Good Morning All: 180 degrees is cool and engines are designed to run in this temperature range. Engines are machined for specified expansion and contraction tolerances and running an engine to cool is harmful. Consider yourself fortunate that your engine is running within the required temperature range. Patrick W. Brooks

[buick5563]

180 is a great number. I'm visiting Buick land but own an Oldsmobile. I run 50/50 with the Water Wetter. I would rejoice for 180 on a hot day!

Well then,

Welcome to Buick Land.

[BUKE]

i never heard of wetter water where do we bye it?

frank

[Barney Eaton]

I don't know if you are joking... "wetter water" But "water wetter" additives can be purchased at auto parts stores (Wal-Mart does not carry) under several different brands.

They are generally 12-16 oz bottles and cost around $10 per bottle. The will be in the area with radiator flushes, radiator sealers, etc

[Barney Eaton]

I have an update that is not very scientific...... last weekend I made a 35 mile, one way trip to our local Fathers Day car show. The '39 did well going but the temp at 10 am was only around 80.

I left the show around 3:30 and the temp was 97-98 degrees and since I am in the city, all the early part is stop and go.... sometime over a minute at a light. The old '39 gage never got to 210 if you can actually believe it, but from experience it may register a little low.

I never saw steam but did notice a small amount of water on the road after stopping. I was probably more than half way home before noticing the water...because there were alway cars behind me that did not allow me to see the road behind.

Once on the open road it settled down, but was still in the 200-205 range.

After it cooled I added water and measured the amount, I was supprised that it needed slightly over 1 gallon.

My first impression..... the water wetter did not help me.

I have a question for the straight 8 experts. what year water pumps are interchangeable?

I have found a remote filler tank from a Chevy Cavalier and it will easily tap into the heater hose. with some other modifications, I can add a pressure cap and get a cushion on the boiling point. With a 4-7 lb pressure cap, my first thought was the seals in the water pump, but if the later, pressurized Buicks used the same water pump, that should not be a worry.

[Bill Stoneberg]

I have a spare 47 water pump on the shelf that you are more then happy to compare to yours. Mine will fit 42 - 53 and I run with a 7 lb cap.

I also stay in the 180's except on real hot days and then I am closer to 200.

Even Sunday going home from the same meet as Barney, I was not much above 180 or so.

[Mark Shaw]

Your 39 water pump should handle the low pressure cap. I suggest you put the overflow tank close to the same level as the top radiator tank.... When the engine cools, it will draw coolant from the overflow tank, but when it sits overnight, you may need help from gravity to empty it. This works well for my 31 Model 57 Buick....

My two cents...

[Barney Eaton]

Thanks for all your input. Yesterday I check the distrubitor to verify that both the vacumn and mechanical advance are working....and they are. I am having a little trouble seeing the timing mark and may need to remove the flywheel shield to put a better mark on it.

The car runs good but the timing could be off.

What do you think about setting the timing with a vacumn gage? Some guys older than me ... claim that setting the timing to the highest vacumn reading at idle gives you the same timing.

[NTX5467]

In realty, there should be no need for any magic chemical mix added to normal engine coolant. There will be some areas of the engine's water jacket which will have higher temperatures than others, but that's decreased as a part of the basic design process (I learned of this in an old Hot Rod Annual where they showed just this very thing on coolant flow in a then-new Chevy 265 V-8 and also in the later W-series V-8s) by the engine engineers. It must be remembered that coolant rushing through the water jackets will also have a certain amount of turbulance in it as it navigates all of the surface's turns and such. Not only must the flow happen, but it must also happen with a minimum of turbulance such that the coolant will remove more of the heat from the combustion process.

I might tend to be more aligned with the OEM orientation that if everything's working "right", no additional additives are needed for any automotive "bodily fluid", but I also know that some "help" is needed in particular applications and situations, by observation. Therefore, if overheating is an issue, marginally or otherwise, then some repairs might need to be done (in this case, a full and complete engine block coolant jacket flush with new core plugs installed), as has been mentioned in here several times over the years. Radiators can look good through the filler neck, but be clogged up lower-down in the core, for example, just as "gunk" will settle toward the rear of an engine's water jacket (due to the angle it naturally has in the chassis, usually). Until both of these areas are addressed, all of the additives in the world will not completely fix the problem--it might help, but not fix. Just my observations.

I might recommend that anybody who might have a cooling system issue they are concerned about to purchase one of the InfraRed non-contact thermometers. This way, with the engine at full and stable operating temperature, you can read the temperatures at, for example, the thermostat housing, sides of the engine block (front to back), the various sections of the radiator, etc. The base models go up to about 500 degrees F, but there are others which will go to 1000 degrees F (which you can use on the exhaust manifolds to check for engine air/fuel mixture distribution issues, or restricted exhaust system parts, possibly). Not very expensive (in the base model) with many other automotive and household uses.

I also know that many might not desire, or be able, to get a vehicle fixed as completely as it needs to be. Hence the use of additives, in many cases.

In the case of Water Wetter, it was my understanding that it decreased the surface tension of the coolant mixture in the engine such that more of the coolant would contact the surface areas in the water jacket, thereby removing more heat from the system (for later removal via the system's radiator). Not as a total replacement for anti-freeze/coolant added to water, but as an additive to an existing water/coolant mixture. It would take a good many of the bottles to do the same anti-freeze protection as gallons of anti-freeze currently do . . . IF I understand what some have mentioned.

In the case of low speed/traffic overheats, perhaps a slightly different fan blade or adding a little more "pitch" to existing blades to pull more air? Of a slightly higher base idle speed? Making sure the engine timing is correct (not too slow, as "retarded" ignition timing results in more heat rejection into the coolant). Or perhaps some sort of additional "shroud" to keep air flowing through the radiator rather than being deflected by outside breezes? Or adding some sort of coolant recovery system to make sure the radiator is completely (or mostly) full of coolant all of the time (rather than an air space at the top), plus adding a little more coolant volume to the system and possibly delaying the "heat" situation as a result? Basically, what I'm mentioning are "mechanical" fixes/upgrades rather than "chemical" fixes. Be that as it may.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

Edited June 28, 2010 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Reatta Man]

Your running temp should be +/- 5-10 degrees of your thermostat. The temp you mentioned (180) may not be too hot if you are running a 165, 170 or 180 degree thermostat.

Joe

[Barney Eaton]

Today before the temp got to 90, I pulled the flywheel cover so I could find the timing mark.

I cleaned it off and applied a sliver of reflective tape. Started the car and the timing mark was no where to be found. I adjusted the distributor until it came into view and set it at 6 degrees. Not sure how far it was off but it was outside the timing window, and a wild guess of how much I adjusted the distributor, at least 10 degrees....maybe more.

After lunch, I will take her for a drive in 95 degree weather and see if there are any changes.

I do have a no touch temp unit and I will attempt to get some reference between the gage and the sending unit and thermostat housing at the same time.

I hope this make a difference.

[trp3141592]

Information was just published in the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Club Newsletter concerning the use of "extended life" antifreeze in cars over 10 years old.

In a nutshell--don't do it!

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should an "Extended Life" antifreeze, which utilizes Organic Additive Technology (OAT, H-OAT, or N-OAT) as one of its chemicals, ever be used in our cars over 10 years old. It attacks the gaskets and gasket cements in our cars, causing major leaks and forcing ultra-expensive repairs. The "Silver Ghost Association" Rolls Royce people have documented massive cooling system failures apparently caused by this anti-freeze product.

Antifreeze that can be used safely in our cars uses older-fashioned Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT) additive.

You cannot tell by the color of the antifreeze if it's safe to use. Also, the product may be labelled "Safe for Older Cars"--meaning 10 years old at most. Brands to be AVOIDED are all Prestone lines and Zerex's G-05 in the Gold-color container. Avoid any "extended-life" antifreeze. None of us wants to pull and rebuild our cars' engines.

Acceptable brands are Peak, Peak's HD Product "Sierra," and Zerex Original Green in the WHITE container.

If any of the OAT, H-OAT, or N-OAT products are in your car the cooling system should promptly be drained--radiator and block-- the system flushed thoroughly, and IAT antifreeze installed. I am checking to see what's in my 37 Buick and 40 LaSalle. My Cord is drained and dry.

The article is in Newsletter LVII Number 8 2010. It will be posted on the ACDCLUB.ORG site in a few days in the newsletters section of the forum.

Forewarned is forearmed.

[NTX5467]

The issue of which chemistry that modern antifreeze/coolant uses was mentioned several years ago on the Usenet newsgroup for Chrysler products (rec.autos.maker.Chrysler . . . I believe). An automotive engineer gave a very interesting and detailed commentary on the differences in DEXCOOL and Valvoline G-05 coolants (GM uses DEXCOOL and Chrysler, possibly Ford also, uses the G-05 or similar chemistry), but not mention was made of the effects upon vintage vehicles. In other commentaries, it was noted that DEXCOOL requires a properly-maintained-at-"FULL" system to not cause any cooling system problems, but it was also felt that Valvoline G-05 chemistry would be better, in general, for limited-use vehicles.

I'm NOT going to question the experiences of others--period--but it was observed that vehicles which came into our shop with coolant leaks from the intake manifold gaskets generally appeared to have not had enough DEXCOOL in the reservoirs for quite some time. There was suspicion that such (apparently) lack of maintenance allowed the coolant to react with the atmosphere to cause some sort of chemical change (ph levels?) in the coolant which then degraded the somewhat thin (redesigned) seals in the intake manifold gaskets. Interestingly, water pump seals did not seem to be affected. This was on MY 2000+ GM 5.3L and 5.7L V-8s, typically, in light truck chassis vehicles.

Also, having some knowledge of automotive engine gaskets (and their retention via "sealers", "cements", or "adhesives"), I can't reallly think of anything which has really changed in the past 50 years, significantly-so, which would be affected by coolant issues. "Fire rings" might not be made out of stainless steel, rather than softer steel on earlier versions of head gaskets, for example. Some head gaskets might now be Teflon-coated rather than being "bare", as normal stamped steel head gaskets have now virtually vanished due to the use of aluminum cylinder heads and cylinder blocks.

In the case of the composition head gaskets, water passages typically had an open hole the coolant passed through or had a stamped steel restriction in it (just as the stamped steel head gaskets had similar restriction holes in them, but as a part of the total gasket unit. These coolant flow restrictions could, with time and lack of coolant maintenance, erode and enlarge (which could cause hard-to-find overheating issues or leaks of coolant between the cylinder head and the cylinder block--not unlike a stamped steel or copper head gasket which would normally use some sort of PermaTex sealer on each side of the gasket for additional longevity and "stay in place issues". With time, though, such sealers can age and dry out, by observation--even if they were the factory-spec sealer of choice. The other issue is that such sealers might not have quite the design life we might desire as, in normal use, the particular engines might need rebuilding by the time the sealer's age might start to become an issue . . . back when the vehicles were new and in regular "normal" use. I highly suspect that the more modern versions of these sealers have a longer service life.

Even in a cooling system in a vehicle which sees limited use, the coolant is still in static contact with everything inside the cooling system for extended periods of time. In that time, electrolysis and other reactions with metals, seals, solders, and gaskets can still take place to degrade and diminish the integrity of the respective seals and such. Suddenly, what didn't leak when the vehicle last ran now leaks when it starts, runs, and builds pressure in the cooling system.

About 25 years ago, I found a coolant pamphlet at a local import vehicle dealer's parts counter. It mentioned that ethylene glycol and lead solder were "enemies", that the coolant needed special chemistry to NOT attach and degrade the solder used (at that time) to seal radiator tanks to the radiator cores. This was for what's now termed "Old Chemistry" coolants. It seems that the particular import OEM's coolant had more of the additive to prevent the lead solder's demise than other brands of similar coolant did. This could also relate to the coolant's ph balance, I suspect . . . more toward the alkaline side than the acidic side. Not unlike the ph level of motor oil changing as its used.

Theory . . . I suspect that if an owner of a vintage vehicle put the readily-available "Extended Life" coolant in a vintage vehicle AND took the manufacturer at their "extended life" or "100,000 mile change interval" word, then we might be seeing issues relating to electrolysis and other reactions with internal cooling system components resulting in the sealing issues mentioned. Changing the coolant regularly, per particular vehicle recommendations (typically every year or so) would remove the degraded-ph coolant from the system and replace it with coolant with fresh additives not only for coolant anti-freeze protection but also to put coolant with a fresh additive package into the cooling system.

In the world of vintage vehicles, which see limited use, we sometimes desire to also do maintenance at the normal mileage intervals as if the vehicle was seeing daily/regular use of several hundred miles per week rather than several hundred miles over a 2+ month time period. On some things and vehicles, you can get away with doing things that way . . . on others, NOT. Therefore, the time/labor saving orientation regarding an "Extended Life" coolant would be minimal if they are changed and treated as the prior non-extended life coolants of prior times.

There are ways to check a coolant's ph level. I believe that in the over-the-road truck industry, there are inline coolant filters which also contain a ph-balancing mechanism for longer coolant life from normal coolants.

In one respect, rather than completely blame the particular coolant's chemistry as such, we might need to further investigate HOW the particular coolants were used and related change intervals in each of the vehicles which had issues . . . with all due respect. Not unlike how DEXCOOL was initially blamed for cooling system problems when it was not maintained as it should have been as the vehicles aged (with respect to the level in the coolant reservoir) OR if the owner/repairer added non-DEXCOOL to the system and things turned quite muddy in there. Or later problems which were related to radiator cap failures and loss of coolant.

Just some thoughts . . .

Respectfully,

NTX5467

[Stu Allen]

Perhaps I am just lucky but I installed extended life coolant in my '49 Super and '57 Roadmaster about 10 years ago and replaced it with fresh extended life coolant (Prestone Dexcool) about 5 years ago and to date have had no problems. I would be interested in other's experience using this coolant.

[Matt Harwood]

Is the radiator core original? I just had an interesting experience that I had never thought about that might be relevant.

A friend's '38 Packard Super 8 convertible sedan overheated pretty much every time he drove it, despite a new, modern core. He frequently needed to add as much as 2 gallons to the system every time he drove the car, and never traveled without several bottles of water in the trunk. The car never boiled over, but the coolant was going somewhere, and the car ran hot, probably because it was always low on coolant.

So I'm driving behind him and I see coolant puking out the bottom of the car. We stop at a well-known restorer's shop to have him have a look. At idle, everything is fine and the car doesn't heat up at all--nice and cool no matter how long we leave it running. Rev it up and the coolant pukes out the overflow. A-ha! What's going on here?

To make a long story less long, it turns out the brand-new radiator core was a more efficient design and was definitely transferring plenty of heat. BUT it was more restrictive to coolant flow through the core than the original by virtue of smaller tubes. So at idle, coolant passed through the system easily. But once the water pump got going, the coolant would not flow through the core fast enough, resulting in the coolant coming out the overflow as the water pump sucked the bottom of the radiator dry and tried to stuff it all through the top hose. The water pump was modified to be "less aggressive" and voila! Problem solved.

I don't know if this helps, but remember that if a car is running hot and all the obvious things are functioning, it might be something "outside the box." However, if the car isn't blowing steam, it's not overheating and is probably working correctly. We all like seeing cooler temperatures on the gauges, but the reality is that if it isn't steaming, it's usually fine. 180-200 is fine for these cars, and even spikes to 210 shouldn't hurt anything.

[Patrick W. Brooks]

Good Morning: 180 degrees is proper operating temp. for an automobile engine. The tolerances were engineered for this temp. of operation. Consider yourself lucky. Patrick W. Brooks:)