My next project? 1921 Packard Coupe.

[oldcar]

Hello again.

With the Dixie Flyer now on the water heading towards the US and seemingly unlikely to return after the AACA 75th Anniversary show it is time to start thinking about what I do next. One possibility is this 1921 Packard "Single Six" coupe. But first I would like to know a little more about it. It is a comparatively recent (about five years ago) import into Australia. West P tells me that the body is rather unusual, does anyone recognize it and can tell me if it is a standard Packard factory body or a coach-built? Obiviously the seats are not original. I probably will not do too much about it until after we return home in mid-July. Not all that far away.

Bernie j.

Edited May 27, 2010 by oldcar (see edit history)

[unimogjohn]

Bernie, way to easy of a restoration for you. I can recognize it as a car versus a pile of rusted parts.

But, she sure would be a beauty, brought back from the edge of extinction.

[Scotts_DG8]

I concur, there appears to be way too much to start with. But, I guess you are looking for something that you can putts with and polish into another jewel and still find time for a bit of personal life too.

Still, humor aside, I think it would be a great project and it does have a unique style to it and using the Flyer as an example can visualize it completed. Scott…

[Guest TonyAus2]

Bernie

Is this a drop head coupe or has someone taken a gas axe to it? Hard to tell from your photos. If the latter, it will certainly tax your panel beating skills.

Tony

[oldcar]

Hi Tony

To answer your question: I wish I knew. Certainly it will be much easier to fabricate a frame for a folding top than to re-create a hard-top. My personal preference is for a drop head so if I go ahead with this ( I still have to decide if I want to buy it) I imagine that it may well finish up as one. Right now I am looking for some confirmation of exactly what it was. In particular I am looking for some idea of what the interior trim should look like and if possible some photographs of a similar drop head. I must be growing more particular in my old age.

Bernie j.

[Restorer32]

If you supply us with the numbers from the data plate and the wheelbase we can tell likely tell you what it started out as. .

[oldcar]

Hi All

I went out to see the Packard yesterday. Sadly I will not be buying it It is much worse than it looks in the photos.

It was originally a four seat four window two door sedan. the roof has been hacked off and the car left out in the weather for years. It would be as big a job as the Dixie Flyer, something that I am not looking for right now. So this means that I am still looking! I will probably wait now until we return to Australia in early August. We leave for the US and Louisville on the 23rd just three weeks away!

Bernie j

Edited June 1, 2010 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

As mentioned above I am seriously looking for another project to replace the Dixie Flyer. It now seems almost certain to be staying in Kentucky........

I am looking for a large engined (over 5 litres) early (Pre 1918) either abandoned restoration project, basket case, rolling chassis or barn find. Prefer wire spoke wheels but will consider almost anything, any condition provided that it is interesting.

One thing I will guarantee is that what-ever I start I will finish unless death intervenes!

Please don't waste your and my time with telephone number prices.

Bernie j.

Edited June 6, 2010 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Don't look now but after some serious looking at other possibilities it now seems certain that I will be taking on the Packard as my next project. Mechanically it seems very original, complete and un-molested right down to the seventh spark plug. The body is interesting as from the windscreen back it is aluminum. It will need a speedo and the hand controls for spark & gas and a horn button from the centre of the steering wheel. I believe that I can construct an attractive sport roadster using much of the original panels. Watch this space......

Bernie J.

[Scotts_DG8]

Watch this space...... Bernie J.

Do you really think you would need to ask? Yes, there will be many of us watching this space and waiting with anticipation. Scott...

[unimogjohn]

Bernie, strapped in and ready to go. Start taking pictures.

[edinmass]

Bernie, If you want a little more of a project, check out this 36 Pierce that just came out of the Vermont woods.....:eek: Another EASY restoration. Of all the interesting people I have come across in the car hobby in the last 35 years, you are with out any doubt .... one of a kind!

[oldcar]

The Pierce looks like a great project. It is amazing how straight forward some of these "Impossible" restorations become once you get started. The secret is to keep going and to net-work with other AACA members. Without the support of friends and like minded enthusiasts the job is so much harder. By starting & keeping a thread going gives you that extra incentive to get the job done. However in the end there is just one person who can make it "happen".

Look forward to watching your progress.

Bernie J

P.S. The Packard comes home to-day. Work starts tomorrow!

[oldcar]

Chocks away!

With the Packard secure in our car port (there isn't room in the garage/ workshop right now), the lights, the left hand front fender, the apron below the radiator and the running board have been removed. The plan is to remove all the fenders, running board/side-steps, valances and hood before starting work on stiffening the timber frame up to a point where the body can be safely removed. Having got this far I have been able to uncover the Chassis number *1128317* so now the car can be accurately dated.

The whole car will be dismantled down to a bare frame before rebuilding can commence in ernest. Meanwhile I know that I will be looking for a few things in order to complete this restoration. These will include a 23 inch disk wheel, a speedo and probably the smaller instruments, the spark and throttle levers from the centre of the steering wheel and an early series hinged radiator cap. Any of the early Packard people reading this "Please look in your spares and boxes of bits"

Today's photographs include the Packard, the drivers side floor boards with remains of the original linoleum and aluminum edging intact. The dash as is at present. The cast aluminum "toe board" and pedals which are weathered show little or no signs of wear.

Having spent some time inspecting the underside of the car, more than ever I am convinced that it has done very few miles. The entire exhaust system is the original and there are very few signs of miss-use or make-shift repairs. The lining on the foot brake bands shows little or no wear. Having removed both front shackle pins when removing the apron I found both to be virtually un-worn.

Now a question. I have found this body style referred to as either an Opera Coupe or a Doctors Coupe. Which is more correct?

Watch this space!

Bernie J

[oldcar]

Funny how these things "just turn up". A friend who dropped in to inspect the new project brought an arm full of old magazines that he thought I may like to see. This cartoon turned up at on the back page of the Winter edition of Old Car Illustrated (No Connection) Vol 2 No4 of 1976.

Enjoy!

Bernie J.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Funny , Bernie!!

Are you saving the amp gauge hanger?

Ben

[oldcar]

Hi Ben

If you would really like it give me your address and I will post it to you.

Bernie J

[Earl B.]

Bernie, you shouldn't be getting rid of those rare, original parts like that.. haha......B

[oldcar]

Thank you for that helpful advice "B" but rather than getting rid of stuff I am accumulating it. I have just added a radiator cap complete with an original Packard Motor-meter to the collection.

[oldcar]

Hello again!

Work is PROGRESSING. All four fenders and both valances and running boards have now been removed and are ready to go to be bead blasted. I am currently BUSY stiffening up the existing timber body frame prior to removing the panels. I would like to retain as much as possible of the original.

Please do look in your "Goody bins" or book shelves or where-ever you store your treasures and see if you just happen to have a Series 1 Packard Speedometer surplus to requirements. It will be Oval. 5 1/2 X 3 1/2 inches. have a rotating drum speedo at the top then two smaller windows for trip and total milage finally a small clock at the bottom. I hope to have a photo to show you soon but don't let that stop you looking.

Hope to hear from you soon

Bernie J.

[Chris Bamford]

You might be interested in these...

My friend is restoring the 1923 Packard Opera Coupe that belonged to my late father, and the drawings came with the car.

I also have a 1.6 Mb file of photos of another 23 Packard coupe that sold last year at an auction in Missouri. There is one picture showing some details of the apparently original interior — drop me a note if you would like this file e-mailed.

Chris

23P side view.pdf

23P Plan view.pdf

[oldcar]

Absolutely fantastic! I would very much appreciate copies of any material you can spare. A restorers impossible dream come true.

How can I thank you?

Bernie J

[Chris Bamford]

"How can I thank you?"

Easy — I regret to report my late Uncle who used to live in Melbourne passed away recently in Uganda, and I need your invaluable assistance in repatriating his $15Million US Dollars fortune from the hands of Godless Thieves and Scoundrels into the National Bank of AUstralia. Please Sir be so kind as to Forward me by E-Mail quick your Bank account number and Passwords so I may deposit same into your account forthwith...

_ _ _ _ _ _ _

No problem Bernie, we're happy to help. There may well be some information or assistance we can use at this end — we can keep in touch. My friend Jerry and I are going to Hershey next month and we can take a photo of his speedometer (his only speedometer) in hopes of spotting another for you.

Speaking of Melbourne, I spent a bit of time there back in 1974 whilst backpacking through the country with friends. I now drive an X-Melbourne tram during our summer here as a volunteer with the Edmonton Radial Railway Society (google for more). We have several historic trams on this line but the Melbourne car is my favourite to look at and to drive.

Chris

Edited September 2, 2010 by Bamfords Garage
Typos (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hi Chris

Many thanks for the Drawings in particular the seating arrangement.

You may be interested to know that we still have some of those trams in daily service in Melbourne, used on an inner city circle route providing a free hop on hop off ride, primarily for tourists.

[oldcar]

Just a quick one. It is raining outside so I have time. Work is proceeding. With the right hand door skin removed I could see that the timber frame is basically sound but in desperate need of some new glue and screws. I have also added some corner blocks to stiffen up the structure. Next step remove the left hand door.

Just a small reminder: I am still looking for a Packard 23 inch Disc wheel & lock rim and of course I still have to find a Speedometer /clock.

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

Hello Everybody!

It is not that I have been slacking off but quite the opposite. Work on the Packard is progressing as the attached photos should show. I have included one of the exhaust tip which I believe is part of the original exhaust system. It is CAST IRON and made in just two pieces including the clamp onto the chassis cross tube.

The other photos show the rebuild right hand door frame cut down to the proposed new height. In the other shot of the body side the tape shows the proposed new waist height.

Finally a close up of what is probably the worst damage to be repaired. To do this will entail removing the entire skin from the doors back. Finally a general shot of the car with doors, four fenders, running boards and valances removed

More later.

Bernie J.

[Ozstatman]

Bernie,

Good to see it's all go go go on the Packard. I've attached a pic of the rear of DavidM's '22 Sports Tourer, you can just see the tip of the exhaust pipe just like yours.

[edinmass]

Bernie, There is a product to repair wood boats called Kwik-Poly that flows like water but hardens very nice and will take nails and screws. It works great, it will even make a piece of rotted wood useable as long as it's not a main structural component. It's not cheap but we use it on ALL of our wood to keep out bugs,rot,and rattles as well as loose joints. I'm sure if you try it you will use it on the whole car. You can also use it to fill old nail and screw holes. Look it up on the net and I am sure you will find it. Ed

Edited September 11, 2010 by edinmass (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hello edinmass

Thanks for the info. Looking at the Kwik-Poly web site it looks like a good product to know about. Has anyone else had any experience with it? It does not seem to be available in Australia. I will see if it is possible to get a trial pack sent to me.

Bernie j.

[Earl B.]

Bernie, I've used it before and it's great stuff. If you need it thicker, you can add sawdust to it, or wood shavings.... good luck,,,B

[Tom M]

Bernie,

I have used this on my car. High Performance Wood Hardener - Wood Maintenance & Repair

It may not be as good as Kwik-Poly but it was readily available at our local hardware stores. It may or may not be available in your neck of the woods. Just throwing out some other options for you to look into.

[oldcar]

Thank you again for the info.

I will check out the local hardware and see what is available here is Australia.

Meanwhile work is progressing with the removal of the gas (petrol) tank the exhaust system and the mail wiring conduit yesterday.

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

For a change today I had to do some work on the Lagonda. Following the weekends motoring I had to remove the windscreen to have the glass replaced. for some unaccountable reason it had developed a crack from top to bottom right in front of the driver. Fortunately this was the only problem after about 450 miles of country roads on a wet and windy weekend. (It is early Spring here in the South East corner of Australia). After delivering the screen to have a new glass cut and fitted I managed to remove the Packard's trunk lid, remove the aluminum skin and re-glue and screw the timber frame. This will still need some more attention before the skin can go back on. The next step is the big one removing the skin from the entire rear section of the body (without destroying the timber frame in the process). It is interesting that all the panels are secured to the frame with small wood screws (at about two inch centers) rather than nails. The only place that nails are used is around the waist line where the original roof panel overlapped. This join was then covered with a aluminum beading.

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

The more I do the more puzzled I become. Tim Martin from the Packard Twin Six Register assures me that Holbrook only built their Doctor's Coupe body on Packard Eight Chassis so who built these most unusual "purpose built" Doctor's Coupe bodies on the Single Six chassis????

The only real clues that I have to date are the method of attaching the ALUMINUM panels using countersunk wood screws. Having checked, the spacing of the screws is totally random! Varying between 2 inches to 2 3/4 inches, suggesting an hand built job.

The other is the numbers stamped into the timber rail inside the trunk lid and in other places around the body. See attached photographs.

Also attached is the drawing for the seating plan which indicates a special purpose design. the box at one side of the sear seat appears to have contained a sink. For the doctor to wash his hands in?

There appear to have been several of these coupes that have survived The final Photo is of one forwarded to me by Tim Martin taken of a similar car in Canada.

To my thinking it would seem unlikely that the Packard Factory would go out of their way to build such a single purpose car. If not them and not Holbrook who were the mystery coach builders? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Edited September 17, 2010 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Sorry! Here is the drawing mentioned above. The front passenger seat is a small folding arrangement with minimal upholstery. Note box at end of rear seat.

Who would go to the trouble to built such a specialized body?

Bernie J.

Edited September 17, 2010 by oldcar (see edit history)

[TonyAus]

Bernie

My understanding is that this is the standard layout for an opera coupe. The small seat next to the driver is to accommodate a lady wearing a full skirt. The box at the rear is to hold a gentleman's top hat.

[DavidMc]

Bernie,

My guess is that your car is a standard Packard built 4 passenger Coupe, this body wasavailable on the 126, 226 & 326 cars. The Packard body number for this body style is 222 as stamped on the wood in your photograph, the second number is probably a part number for that piece. My 126 is a 224 body style and it was stamped on various pieces of wood.

On the subject of wood glue, I recently became aware of a glue called "Vice" readily obtainable from Bunnings. A friend used it on the wheels of his T Ford where the spokes were loose in the fellows. He drilled into the side of the fellows at each spoke and injected the glue in using the nozzle on tube and let it set overnight. This glue expands considerably as it sets and in his case he was able to continue on the rally and now some years later the spokes are still tight. I have tried it on some sample joints and it is very promising for our sort of problems.

[oldcar]

Thanks Tony & David

That certainly seems to clear up the question of the origin of the body. The 222 re-appears on a number of pieces of wood. I am surprised that Packard used Aluminum for all the panels rear of the windscreen. You learn something every day. It certainly explains how so many of this body survive.

Bernie J

Edited September 17, 2010 by oldcar (see edit history)

[ROD W]

Bernie

Buick had the same box behind the front seat in their Opera coupe

Rod

[oldcar]

Thanks Rod

Good to see so many Aussies taking an interest. Just as well I have a Top Hat already but somehow I can't see myself wearing it. Not even in the Packard. The way I envisage my car it would probably blow off.

Bernie J