36 Plymouth brakes

[Guest broker-bob]

I have always had problems with the wheel cylinders------not long after I would redo them they would rust up again,,,,,,,,maybe doint drive it enough-------last summer I did them--- AGAIN --( #@$&@%^)----but before I reasembled them I coated the inside with ----NAPPA BREAK GREASE-----seems like grafite based I just took the car out and the breaks feel great no pulling--------------bobnroman@yahoo.com

[Dave@Moon]

We already answered this for you.

http://forums.aaca.org/f169/break-trouble-274434.html

Remind me to let you pass if I see you behind me in traffic.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Dave@Moon (see edit history)

[Guest broker-bob]

thank you for responding,,,----- but I was not looking for an answer------------you do it your way I'll do it mine

[Owen_Dyneto]

Bob, I'd guess your prior problems were a result of not driving enough, perhaps not changing fluid every few years, perhaps a humid climate, and perhaps wheel cylinders where the bore has exceeded the diameter where the seals can still seal.

Using any kind of grease inside them is an absolutely TERRIBLE idea and just about guarantees brake failure and whatever the consequences of that might be. PLEASE don't drive the car, and buy new or sleeved wheel cylinders. And give serious thought to using DOT5 fluid if the car is only driven sparingly.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history)

[Guest broker-bob]

thanks I have two cars from the 30s Mopar it seems to happen to both of them I have taken pits out once or twice so maybe the boar is slighly larger but I can't see why that would matter the boots are old maybe they are not fitting on the cylinders tight but if they were,,,, moisture still could get in the middle hole I doint drive in water ----- still I get rust around and from the piston out ----- will leave the grease in for now----- I will see how this summer goes if I still have problems will try plan---------------- B----------------------SLEEVES------

[F&J]

VW dealer shops had a product called Brake Paste...I would think that's what you have used...it did work good.

[Guest broker-bob]

I just stuck my finger in the master to see if the fluid look contaminated it is clear the only thing I doint know is if the GREASE would work on the rubber cups years ago I tried silicone break fluid ------------it ruined the rubber of my master

[Bhigdog]

WELL SHOOT GUYS, I NEVER HEERED OF PUTTIN GREESE IN BREAKS BUT EFFEN IT WORKS, WELL WHY NOT. iLL JIST STICK MY FINNER IN THE HOLE AND EFFEN IT LOOKS GOOD ILL JUST DRIVE IT TILL IT WONT STOP NO MORE.........Bob

Go ahead mr. moderator delete away. I deserve it but the Devil made me do it.

[F&J]

The stuff I was talking about was made for coating all internal surfaces of wheel cyls and brake calipers during rebuilding. It was in the 70's

in the mid 80s I bought repro cyls for a 32 ply....I did look inside the dust boots and those had some sort of greasy looking stuff as well.

[Bill Harmatuk]

Bhigdog

Your reply speaks volumes about yourself.

Bill Harmatuk

New Bern, N.C.

[JFranklin]

Bhigdog, maybe you are right, sometimes satire gets the point across. If I had Brokerbobs problem with brakes I would be looking for a pinhole in the lines or old rubber hoses.

[Bhigdog]

Bhigdog

Your reply speaks volumes about yourself.

Bill Harmatuk

New Bern, N.C.

Yeah well, sometimes one gets tired of beating one's head against the wall so one tries another tack out of frustration. No one wants to see another get hurt, or hurt another, through ignorance. And, as a famous sailor once said "I yam what I yam, an that's all what I yam."..............Bob

[Dave@Moon]

Yeah well, sometimes one gets tired of beating one's head against the wall so one tries another tack out of frustration. No one wants to see another get hurt, or hurt another, through ignorance. And, as a famous sailor once said "I yam what I yam, an that's all what I yam."..............Bob

This guy's going to hurt himself, and very likely others. We're not going to stop him. But if it isn't VERY clear who the (ignorant person) is on threads like this, then someone only slightly smarter (perhaps able to spell graphite, or even know that it's a solid compound and not a grease) might read this and try to do the same thing.

Things just don't get much more important than this on an antique car forum.

[Guest broker-bob]

this year I will be 65 most of the cars I have had in my life were drum breaks all around as I think back many times when doing brake jobs the rear cylinders would be STUCK RUSTED just like my antique THEY ARE NOT USED AS MUCH and maybe doint get hot to dry moisture when disks came into use this was no longer a problem because of the way calipers are made THE TOP OF THE PISTON IS SEALED with a tight rubber boot and not exposed to weather I did not start playing with cars yeaterday my contention is that the design of durm breaks makes it manditory to put some kind of lub on the inside surface of the wheel cylinders as they are bare metel and prone to rusting because of the loose design of that kind of boot I thank every one for there concern but as said the stuff has been in there 6 months true,,, it may have not been the best to use.... but the fluid is clear for the first time the 36 breaks feel good I saved the money to resleave and I am going to a car show today BR

Edited April 15, 2010 by broker-bob (see edit history)

[Owen_Dyneto]

If you're going to put lube inside the cylinders, there is a special assembly lube made just for that purpose. Use it, BUT NOTHING ELSE. But if your cylinders have been honed a number of times, and especially if care wasn't taken to keep the pivot point of the stone within the cylinder, chances are good that the cylinder mouths have become "bell-shaped" which means they're unsafe and need to be sleeved or replaced with new. Given the apparent condition of the wheel cylinders, I'd also think that the steel and rubber hydraulic lines should be very closely examined, or better yet, replaced. Brakes are nothing to take chances with.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history)

[Guest broker-bob]

thank you will check the lub you mentioned ------------- cylinders have been honed a few times but I think they are in ok shape My lines are original and hoses are fine

[F&J]

Broker Bob, you are right about bare metal at the piston...and correct about the seal not being good enough to stop moisture.

To those who who make incredibly rude comments to others, try some manners instead...

The seal Bob talks about is not enough when you think about bare iron in direct contact with aluminum alloy pistons. add to that, months of strorage...and DUH, what do you think will happen?

P/S, Dave, your last post is sickeningly elitist. That is not a rude comment, just an observation.

here is the post so you can't change it later.

This guy's going to hurt himself, and very likely others. We're not going to stop him. But if it isn't VERY clear who the (ignorant person) is on threads like this, then someone only slightly smarter (perhaps able to spell graphite, or even know that it's a solid compound and not a grease) might read this and try to do the same thing.

How can a person say such a thing? Total lack of class, that's how

[Dave@Moon]

P/S, Dave, your last post is sickeningly elitist. That is not a rude comment, just an observation.

here is the post so you can't change it later.

This guy's going to hurt himself, and very likely others. We're not going to stop him. But if it isn't VERY clear who the (ignorant person) is on threads like this, then someone only slightly smarter (perhaps able to spell graphite, or even know that it's a solid compound and not a grease) might read this and try to do the same thing.

How can a person say such a thing? Total lack of class, that's how

Well, that's one interpretation. Let's see who the guy he hits agrees with. At least my subjective interpretation will eventually have empirical evidence.

The "classy" way to deal with this was already tried. You tell me what kind of class it takes to go out of one's way to brag about using improper and dangerous methods when previous attmpts by the same person to do so were already shouted down here (in the "classiest" terms possible, I might add--see earlier thread already linked).

Making someone else happy about what they've accomplished with their car is a nice thing. However there are circumstances when it is FAR from the proper thing to do.

[JFranklin]

I agree with Dave. When you see someone doing something that could kill people you yell STOP! when they ignore or brush off your attempt then it is perfectly proper to shout STOP YOU IDIOT! It is not rude at all, rather it would genuinely be rude or negligent to those that would be harmed if not said.

[Guest broker-bob]

I really appreciate every one's concern about my killing people with my unsafe car,,,,,,,,BUT REALLY !!!!! all I did was but some lub on the cylinder---so it would'nt rust---which was recomended by someone with more knowledge than me ---Just got back from a show no one was killed...... see below the KILLING MACHINE----------BR

Edited April 16, 2010 by broker-bob (see edit history)

[F&J]

About 30 seconds of time on google "brake cylinder lube" brought the following info from just one site... Search yourself for trade names of the product that you need:

SEVERAL BASIC TYPES

There are several basic types of brake lubricants: those that are designed for lubricating hardware and mechanical components and typically contain a high percentage of solids (dry film lubricants), and those that are designed for lubricating seals, boots and other internal parts when assembling calipers, wheel cylinders and master cylinders.

Brake lubricant for hardware is a special high temperature grease designed to provide long-lasting protection. The lubricant may be a synthetic or silicone-based product. Synthetic-based, boundary-type lubricants that come in a tube, paste or stick form have a high solids content and typically contain a variety of friction-reducing ingredients such as molybdenum disulfide (moly or MOS2) and graphite.

Moly and graphite are both dry-film lubricants that can handle high temperatures and pressures. Some of these products are rated to withstand intermittent temperatures as high as 2,400 degrees F!

Moly and graphite have excellent staying power and won’t evaporate or burn off over time, and they won’t attract or hold dirt like ordinary “wet” greases can. This type of product is ideal for high temperature applications where long-lasting metal-to-metal lubrication is essential for good brake performance.

Silicone-based brake grease is designed for caliper and wheel cylinder assembly work because silicone is an excellent lubricant for rubber and plastic. It is compatible with all rubber compounds including nitrile, teflon, nylon and other synthetic rubbers. Silcone’s normal working range is -40 degrees F to 400 degrees F. But it does not have the high temperature staying power of a high solids synthetic lubricant, and it is a “wet” lubricant that can attract and hold dirt, making it less suited for lubricating external metal-to-metal contact points, such as caliper mounts and shoe pads. This type of product is best suited for assembling calipers, wheel cylinders and master cylinders.

Another synthetic-based brake lubricant uses polyalphaolefin (PAO) as its main ingredient. PAO-based brake lubricants are also excellent for assembly work and lubricating seals and boots. PAO offers superior rust protection, making it well-suited for brake systems operated in wet environments.

PAO brake lubricant may also include various amounts of moly, graphite and teflon to enhance its lubricating properties. This type of product can withstand intermittent temperatures of up to 600 degrees F, and can be used for both assembly and external lubrication.

White lithium is a low-temperature grease that can be used to lubricate drum brake hardware and backing plates, but lacks the heat-resistance for front disc brake applications. So this type of grease is not the best choice for general brake work. Regardless of what type of brake lubricant you choose, always follow the supplier’s recommendations as to how their product should be used.

[A by the sea]

What people do not realize about hydraulic brakes is they need to be driven. We had a 39 Ford and were always into the brakes. We did not drive the car much. Must later I learned that more cars than you might want to believe at a car show do not have fully functioning hydraulic brakes. This goes for all years of cars and is dependent climate.

Normally they are driven regularly and the seals are held up some with the pressure check valve. Normally they try to keep about 6 PSI in the drum brake lines.

Now lets think about cars that sit for a while.

The car sitting in the garage is subject to a constant variation in temps from day to night. As the metal heats up the juice expands at a different rate. You also have variations in barometric pressure. So you get the fluid inside the lines expanding and contracting different from the metal. This allows the fluid to move past the seals and get sucked back in the lines. While it is out the metal is holding moisture, warm metal at night with cooling air is condensation.

So you have fluid moving out into the air. It picks up moisture and leaves a film behind. This allows for rust and scum. The scum will cause one or more pistons to not move so good and the rust, well need I say more.

Driving the car regularly exposes the brakes to heat to keep things dry. The piston motion helps to keep scum from forming.

The only solution is the car needs to be driven regularly.

I view converting mechanical brakes to juice a safety hazard. In most cases, the mechanical brakes are as effective as the juice brakes with tires being the real limiting factor. The problem with both types of brakes that overshadows all is a failure to properly restore the brakes. Too many guys just slam the brakes together with worn parts and not paying attention to all the details.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

I can only echo the sentiment that the brakes are about the single most important part of ANY vehicle.

Make sure yours are in good order before setting out !

When I was "young and twenty", all I cared about was getting the old bus to "go"... after a few failures of long-neglected brake systems, I found out that STOPPING is important too... :eek:

One of those failures was in a "modern" vehicle (1986 - front disc / drum rear ) not twenty years old at the time.

Lastly, I have always read / been told that petroleum and rubber DO NOT MIX, so if applying any lube to brake cylinder rubber, I'd want it in writing from the lube manufacturer that it was safe for that purpose. Ideally, I think I'd want a lube from Bendix, Wagner-Lockheed, Raybestos...

Broker Bob, I don't think you're at risk for a catastrophic failure (total & complete sudden brake failure), but might be trading corroding pistons for gradually deteriorating rubber... your Lockheed brakes will probably give you some warning if things are getting unhappy...

Edited April 22, 2010 by De Soto Frank (see edit history)

[Guest martylum]

Hey Guys-I think Broker bob was pulling our leg as evidenced by the correctly spelled later responses.

I rebuilt my 30 Desoto wheel cylinders and master in 1989 with all new seals and filled with silicone-even to it sits a lot, the brakes are still working very nicely with no evidence of rust rust at the master or wheel cylinders. We've taken this car on 5 Glidden Tours and place a very high value on effective brakes especially on the Tour in the mountains of New Hampshire.

I've stopped trying to hone out pits in wheel cylinders as I think the amount of honing to eliminate the pits will probably make most of the cylinders oversized so I just get them sleeved or, on more modern cars, order new.

Martin Lum

[Dave@Moon]

Hey Guys-I think Broker bob was pulling our leg as evidenced by the correctly spelled later responses.

His last post (the shortest thus far) does have only 3 misspelled words, and what I think are the first attempts at real punctuation. However I still think he was serious.

What's more, I don't think it matters if he was or was not.

If even one person read this thread (or the other) and came away with the impression that this was a proper technique, it would be antithetical to everything our organizations stand for. And if anyone got hurt doing this, we would all be complicit if we let it stand as a joke or dismissed it without comment.

This was a sad episode. They happen here occasionally. It's just the price we pay for having an open forum, the benefits of which far outweigh incidents like this,

[19tom40]

Broker Bob might be using brake fluid from a can that has been sitting on a shelf with the inner seal broken allowing the fluid to collect water. Dot 3 brake fluid will absorb water from the air.

In a seldom driven car, the brake fluid should be changed frequently, at least every 3 years. The fluid should come from a fresh can, that had its internal seal in-place.

Dot 5 fluid does not eat the rubber, his problem with dot 5 is that he did not rebuild and flush the lines in the system before changing over.