Sign in to follow this  
msmazcol

Survivor Values?

Recommended Posts

I'm looking for the input of the hobby and those in the club. I recently had a appraiser out to put a value on a vehicle needing a bonded title. He was a great guy and we talked cars for some time. His eyes were drawn to my 69 442 standing in the next stall. The car is the genuine article and is an un-molested survivor.

He quickly pulled out the Old Cars Weekly Price Guide and went past the number 1 price column. The number rattled my brain a bit and he proceeded to tell me survivor cars are being valued above #1 restored cars. If this is the case I don't have near enough insurance stated value on it.

Yes, I'm aware the vehicle is only worth what a buyer will place in the palm of your hand. I'm just wondering if I really need to place a dime on my insurance carrier though?

Input welcome, thanks.

post-60266-143138192299_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can see am extremely nice unrestored "popular" model going for more than a senior winner.

There are so many cloned ones, restamped block numbers, as well as VIN switches out there. So if a person wants a car that can't be questioned on originality.... :)

...all it takes it one buyer that knows what he wants...and does not "have to talk to his wife first" ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Value is directly related to the decimal places in ones checkbook.

True unmolested survivors are becoming more valuable to collectors than totally restored versions. Of course it depends on the collector and what they collect.

Some feel a vehicle simply can't be taken completely apart, rebuild and replace some parts and reassemble it better than the factory did with all new parts in the very beginning.

Thats all I'll say about it for now

Ctskip

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It sure looks like survivors are worth a premium, especially on musclecars, for the above reasons. Of course your appraiser's opinion of it's actual value is still just his estimate, but if your collector insurance is reasonable cost I would say eliminate the doubt and add the coverage if it is just a few bucks to be fully covered. Good luck, Todd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I bumped up the agreed values on a couple of my vehicles. It still is not at the high end of the scale but is a great deal better. The premium is directly affected by the agreed value though. The insurance company did not hesitate one second with the final number I can live with. It is still below what the estimated written values show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well I bumped up the agreed values on a couple of my vehicles. It still is not at the high end of the scale but is a great deal better. The premium is directly affected by the agreed value though. The insurance company did not hesitate one second with the final number I can live with. It is still below what the estimated written values show.

I recall many decades ago talking with "spendthrift old yankees" here in New England....they used the term "insurance poor". These old coots were fairly well off, and could not see the logic in spending more money in decades of insurance premiums, than the property was worth. If the house or barn burned down, they would just rebuild with what they never had to spend on insurance :eek:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"insurance poor" is the argument against insuring at full value. Most of my cars are insured at about 65% of value. Some stuff is not insured at all. The idea is simply to hedge against total calamity.

I always get a chuckle out of people that carry collision on a 6k car.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think, according to the Bloomington Gold folks, you can't call it a "survivor" unless it's an original Corvette. At least that's what they say and have the legal copyright to prove it. More work for overpaid lawyers I guess.........Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there is no way I will give credit to some group of anal folks for simply using a "simple" (non proprietary) word as an adjective

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think, according to the Bloomington Gold folks, you can't call it a "survivor" unless it's an original Corvette. At least that's what they say and have the legal copyright to prove it. More work for overpaid lawyers I guess.........Bob

I think that is true but they have recently started an associated "survivor" show with cars other than Corvettes, so I think they have opened up their coverage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
there is no way I will give credit to some group of anal folks for simply using a "simple" (non proprietary) word as an adjective

I think I read that someone was trying to copyright or trademark the term "barn find" too. Oy Vey...............Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bob, I think the copyright of "barn find" was a joke that started on this Discussion Forum...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We actually attended the first year of the survivor show at Bloomington Gold with this Olds. I don't want to talk out of church but have passed on going again. The entry fee for the "preferred" spot was not cheap and I'm not sure that anyone of the staff ever really looked at the car at all. That's OK they continue to send me a nice invite every year.

I like the term survivor. It makes me think about how many times I considered fixing the original door dings and scratches and putting a coat of paint on it. Luckily something else always pushed its way to the top of the project list.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bob, I think the copyright of "barn find" was a joke that started on this Discussion Forum...

I wasn't sure, that's why I said "I think". But now that it hasn't actually been done I'll get started on it. You guys can expect to hear from my lawyer..........Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe a true survivor car is definitely worth more than a restored show poodle. A lot of people seem to get a bit irate when I say that. I attended a local car show last weekend and there was a 23 Cadillac Victoria coupe there in original paint/ interior/ power train and even a very bald Silvertown spare tire on the trunk. It had more than a few dings in it that were probably put there before I was born('55). It was gorgeous!! My friend was displaying his show winning 1919 Doge Brothers Touring car and his way over restored 37 Plymouth coupe that both drew a lot of praise and spectators. But the true old car guys were just stopped in their tracks, smiling at the Cadillac. Both him and I were very envious and happy to see a true survivor on display amongst the trailer queens. Very few seem to know how to UN-restore cars do they?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a "newbie" I learned one thing very quick and learned to appreciate how important it is to save the true original.

"They are only original once"

Most say that new car smell is great....pfffft The day I brought my beauty home was the day my garage stared to have a recognizable and pleasant smell of history from its all original interior. Unfortunately mine is too far gone to keep it that way but it sure is nice to see how it truly was and not how someone thought it would be better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The argument can be made either way for or against preservation/restoration. Some like em as they are, some would prefer them as they were... there's no right or wrong..............Bob

Edited by Peter J.Heizmann (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reality is, on any given day a dingy and dinged "survivor" will likely sell for less than a well "restored" example. Sad but I think true. "Worth" and "price" are two entirely different concepts. True they are "only original once" but that once is the day they left the factory. After 50 years of wear, tear and deterioration very few cars can be considered anywhere near "original".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do agree that a original survivor can cross the line of just plain needing restoration. I'm proud to say that our Olds has maintained a high level of staying very presentable and is still sharp. With a "muscle car" not having been beaten into the pavement also shows a passing of the test of time.

The original owner loved the power and the four speed but found no reason to abuse or beat the car. I have always driven it the same way. I have been eyed for a show off the line many times. I just give the boys a wave and roll off the line like the old truck driver I am. To me the car looks cooler putting along in the right lane ignoring the need for speed, redlines and all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Restorer,

I admire your input and agree with most of what you say, but the last sentence I find just can't be yours. Have you split that many hairs?

"After 50 years of wear, tear and deterioration very few cars can be considered anywhere near "original". "

By that standard once it's driven directly to storage it still is no longer original, because of the fact theres numbers now showing on the odometer. It's not the way it left the factory.

My question to you would be , What makes is 'not' original ? The bings and the bangs? It's still a 'original just with bings and bangs. Nothing has been changed. I guess thats the difference between 'original' and a 'true survivor'.

Just wondering.

Ctskip

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If your definition of "original" is "as it left the factory" then I maintain that a properly done restoration can be closer to "as it left the factory" than a weathered and mechanically deteriorated "survivor". Personally I value original cars highly. My degree is in archaeology after all. You are right though, it is splitting hairs. I enjoy showing and judging restored cars as well as looking at "original" examples. I do question whether the average "survivor" is worth more in the market place than its restored counterpart, with exceptions of course. Maybe I should have said "original in appearance" and for better or worse AACA judges on appearance. Not being well versed re Corvettes maybe I just need a better understanding of what is actually meant by "survivor".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me, a true "Survivor" like my 4000 mile Amphicar is that everything is intact (Tires to top, front to back), everything operates, overall condition is used but not abused and is equipped with the original parts and hardware from the factory. Only the usual "care and feeding" has been done. No major repairs, no replaced major components. If it's been re-painted, re-upholstered or re-powered, it's NOT a survivor! Basically just normal maintenance and normal wear and tear on a fully functional original makes a survivor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting how the hobby changes. Original cars are now highly sought after. The statement 'It's only original once seems to be the new call of our hobby'.

I own a 1977 plain jane, 2 door AMC Hornet. 6 cylinder, automatic, working A/C, but no radio. I'm the 3rd. owner, my mother was the 2nd. Hornet has 37,000 approx. miles, and is original except for service items (tires, brakes, shocks, etc), and in very good to excellent original condition. No upholstery tears, or major wear, very good paint (only a few chips and bumps), super chrome, and clean chassis, and engine.

So do I have a valuable car? I really have no idea. To me, the history of this car, and its sentimental value are the most important aspects. That plus it is a blast to drive, and it is more powerful then my old VW's. Rides nicer too!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Interesting how the hobby changes. Original cars are now highly sought after. QUOTE]

I for one am glad the originals are now appreciated. It was the only antique hobby where oridinality was a detriment rather than a huge plus. Imagine a "restorer" refinishing an early Boston highboy chest of drawers, :eek:

They call rodders the butchers, but how many restorers have wiped away so many beautiful surfaces and textures while chasing a trophy. Very sad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"It's original only once" is not by any stretch a new thing. Maybe more appealing now (FINALLY!) but I have been hearing that since I was a kid (ok, I'm still a kid at heart but that isn't wat I mean!)

I feel a survivor should have a 10-30+% premium on it's value over a restored car. If I could I would specialize in original or low mileage survivor cars.

Butchers are like Boyd Coddington, he destroyed a survivor model T only saving the body! There are T bodies available, why would you destroy a nice original?? Pure lazyness or just stupid. Hot rods and cusoms have thier place, but don't tear apart a nice original car only to save jus a few parts. There are bodies available to use.

My bodyman just finished a custom 37 Ford business coupe. It stared out as a true survivor, road worthy and rust free. The owner insisted on this custom. All that was kept was the body and frame. SAD!!! I refused to work on it. The morons who did some of the mechanics actually installed a junkyard engine (grease and all!) and thought that was good enough (paint and body was $17000!) I could go on about thier amature butchery, but the sad thing is one original 37 Ford is gone forever.

Edited by Amphicar BUYER (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this