Just curious about an item in the latest The Judge.

[Shop Rat]

We just got back from a trip to Bristol and picked up our mail. Our copies of The Judge came in while we were away.

Under the heading of CJE News was an item I really wonder about, because it was mentioned to me in Hershey by one of my field judges. He said that both he and his son had lost credits for a judging school and a CJE that they had attended because they didn't end up being able to judge. What made it even more strange was that his son, according to him and the credits listed on the sheet, only had nine credits at the Judges Breakfast and yet he still got his ten credit pin.

The item says "Judges, remember that you must judge in the same year that you take your CJE and attend Judging School in order for those credits to count."

I couldn't find that rule anywhere. I tried to find it after my conversation with that judge. I know that to be able to judge a person must attend a Judges School and a CJE within the calendar year of the show they plan to attend. And that if someone does not judge for two years they go onto the inactive list. But nowhere can I find a rule that says that if someone goes to the class and the CJE that if they don't judge they lose the credits.

My understanding from previous years is that if you send in a form to judge and then just don't show up you will lose one credit. If you contact the Chief Judge for that show and let them know as soon as you can that you will be unable to judge you will not lose a point. I am sure that there are circumstances where if there is something like a medical emergency and no one knows to contact the Chief Judge then more than likely a point would not be taken.

Can someone please direct me to where the rule is written that you must judge in the same year you go to judging school/take a CJE or you will lose the credit(s)?

This question is now resolved by Don Bohne - CJE Chairman

Edited April 1, 2010 by Shop Rat
Add some information. (see edit history)

[Guest Siegfried]

Hi Susan,

I've been looking, and also cannot locate where the statement mentioned is written. I did note the statement in the latest issue of 'The Judge'. I guess I'm a bit lost here also.

Why would a CJE and/or judging school credit not count ever?

I can understand the requirement for a school to be attended every year for a judge to be permitted to judge, but why take away a school credit if someone cannot judge in the same year that the previously mentioned credits were earned?

As I recall CJE's are voluntary except for the mandatory CJE at the milestone years. Am I wrong on this statement?

If the statement in question is a 'rule' then, I am going to state that maybe it should be re-visited. It could have a negative impact on the judging community. As usual, this is just my opinion.

:confused:

[Shop Rat]

I am with you on the negative effect it will have. Most of us that judge encourage others to go to judging school and take some CJEs to find out more about what we do and why we do it that way. And we have hopes that some of them will join us in this side of the hobby. It is not going to bode well if they spend the time and effort to get to the classes and then those classes don't count because they are not in the position that year to judge. Like if they attend the schools at Hershey and are showing a car and not able to judge yet.

To the folks following this thread, have any of you lost credits to this rule?

Edited April 1, 2010 by Shop Rat
New information. (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

I checked the 2008 manual a few minutes ago and couldn't find such a rule. Haven't been to school yet this year so don't have a newer edition.

[MCHinson]

I will state that I have reviewed the 2010 Judging Guidelines and it is not in there either. Susan, the instructions indicate that questions should be sent to dmbohne@aol.com. Have you emailed Don and asked him?

[Shop Rat]

I checked the 2008 manual a few minutes ago and couldn't find such a rule. Haven't been to school yet this year so don't have a newer edition.

I had looked through my 2009 manual and I couldn't find it there either. (It was not where I expected it to be, however with Don's help I found it.)

Edited April 1, 2010 by Shop Rat
Updating information. (see edit history)

[Shop Rat]

I will state that I have reviewed the 2010 Judging Guidelines and it is not in there either. Susan, the instructions indicate that questions should be sent to dmbohne@aol.com. Have you emailed Don and asked him?

I just sent the link to Don and asked him to check this out and to let us know where the rule is supposedly written and when it was put into action.

I don't have my 2010 manual yet. But I take your word for it that it is not there. (Turns out it is there. Just not where we were looking for it.)

Edited April 1, 2010 by Shop Rat
Update information. (see edit history)

[Overdrive]

To the folks following this thread, have any of you lost credits to this rule? Has anyone shown you where it is written or were you "told" it is a rule with no written back up?

Yes. Last year, I was told by Mickey of the rule when I was asking her why her records showed fewer points than my records.

Sounded reasonable to me as I figured the rule was to prevent someone from having 10, 20, (pick a number) judging credits without ever having judged a car.

Scott

[Shop Rat]

I just received this from Don. This was not in the guide where I had looked for it. I had looked under Judging Eleigibility rather than under the heading of Judges Awards. Using Don's explanation I was able to find that this is in fact in the 2009 Guidelines also.

I would like to thank Don for clearing this matter up.

Susan,

2010 Judges Guidelines, page 6, states 'No judging awards can be earned

by attending judging schools only. And, 'No judging awards can be

earned by attending CJE seminars only.' Page 7, paragraph two, states '

In order to receive judging awards, a judge must field judge at least

one time per year. Field judging includes serving as an individual

catagory judge, team captain or administrator.'

Don Bohne

Chairman, Continuing Judges Education

Since so many of us did not know about this, as evidenced by the nearly 200 views with no answers, it might be a good idea to put an explanation (as well as where the rules are in the guidelines) in the next The Judge as well as announce it before the judging schools and CJEs begin.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Shop Rat (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

That would not be how I would intrepret that section of the judging guidelines. I have always understood it to mean that you cannot achieve a "milestone" level award without serving as a field judge. I do not see how that was meant to have you lose credits for a year that you were not able to serve as a field judge. I hope that anybody who has lost any credits in that manner will write Herb Oakes, the VP of Class Judging, to ask for a ruling on it. If losing credits in that manner is the intent of that section of the juding guidelines, then it needs to be clearly re-worded in the 2011 Judging Guidelines.

Edited April 1, 2010 by MCHinson
correcting typo (see edit history)

[Guest windjamer]

Due to health reasons I was unable to attend class or judge last year. Should I lose previously earned credits I MAY say again MAY quit the system.:mad:

[Shop Rat]

Due to health reasons I was unable to attend class or judge last year. Should I lose previously earned credits I MAY say again MAY quit the system.:mad:

wj,

As I understand it, if you don't go to classes and don't judge for two years you go on the inactive list. You don't lose any credits from years where you went to class and judged. So this should not be an issue for you.

I would hate for anyone who wants to judge, and trust me they need us, to drop out. Without judges it is just a field full of pretty cars.

And I agree with MCH, the rules need to be re-written if they are meant to remove credits already earned. Maybe they need to hold credits for the same two years that it takes to be put on the inactive list until the person does start judging.

If someone goes to class and some CJEs and never intends to judge, they just want to know more about the system, then that is their choice and they won't be upset that their credits aren't there.

[Guest Siegfried]

I will stay tuned to see how all this works out, and thank you all for stepping up, and doing a bunch of research for an answer. Now I know where to look, and have done so.

I still think there has to be a way for credits not to lost. Perhaps someone will find a way.

[Peter Gariepy]

I don't agree that the rules need to be re-written. They are clear to me. I've posted them in a more complete form below.

To earn judging credits you must field judge. If all you do is take classes but not judge then you do not earn judging credits. Seems like common sense to me.

Susan, i do agree with your comment but with one minor change: "Without FIELD judges it is just a field full of pretty cars. "

Peter

----

G. JUDGES AWARDS

Each time a member has judged at a National Meet, he/she will receive one judging credit and one participation chip. One judging credit and one participation chip per calendar year will be awarded for attending a judging school (see D. Judging School - p. 4). No judging awards can be earned by attending judging schools only. One judging credit and one participation chip per calendar year will be awarded for attending a Voluntary CJE seminar (see E. Continuing Judges Education - p. 5). One judging credit and one participation chip per calendar year will be awarded for attending a Mandatory CJE seminar upon reaching an award level i.e. 10, 25, 50, 75, etc. (see E. Continuing Judges Education - p. 5 ). No judging awards can be earned by attending CJE seminars only. Judges can accumulate additional judging credits. There are four instances in which a judge can receive a judging participation chip:

1. Judging School Instructor - An instructor will receive a maximum of one (1) credit per calendar year after instructing a minimum of three (3) Judging Schools.

2. Continuing Judges Education Instructor - An instructor will receive a maximum of one (1) credit per calendar year after instructing a minimum of three (3) CJE classes.

3. Banquet Administration - A judging administration staff member will receive a maximum of one (1) credit per calendar year after working a minimum of three (3) banquets. The banquet will be on the same day that the staff member worked in Judging Administration.

4. Race Car Certification - A certifier will receive a maximum of one (1) credit per calendar year at the end of the calendar year in which the certifier is identified by the Vice President of Class Judging or a designated responsible person.

If a judge is interested in participating in any of the above activities, he/she must notify the Vice President of Class Judging in writing of his/her interest. No judge will receive more than one (1) credit per calendar year based on the above; the credits are subject to the approval of the appropriate Vice President or Chairman.

After ten chips have been presented, the judge will receive a judging plaque/board which will hold 25 chips. In order to receive judging awards, a judge must field judge at least one time per year. Field judging includes serving as an individual category judge, team captain or administrator.

[Shop Rat]

.....To earn judging credits you must field judge. If all you do is take classes but not judge then you do not earn judging credits. Seems like common sense to me.

I remember back several years ago hearing that there was concern about people doing just that, going to schools and CJEs and considering themselves to be a judge yet they have never been a field judge. Those rules address that issue. But it is clear to me now that several people were unaware of how they would be applied to them as people that have been field judges and Team Captains. They went to schools and CJEs to keep their training current but were unable to judge in a particular year and then found out afterward that the credits were not counted. Hopefully now everyone will know and attend schools and CJEs accordingly.

Susan, i do agree with your comment but with one minor change: "Without FIELD judges it is just a field full of pretty cars. "

[MCHinson]

Peter, I don't wish to have any debate here that might appear to reflect negatively on AACA. I have not lost any credits, so I don't have a dog in this fight. As I have previously indicated, I hope that anyone who has lost credits from this recent re-intrepretation of the rules should appeal to the VP of Class Juding.

I think that I understand the rules as I read them which is also as they were explained in judging school every time I have attended. It is clear that you will not earn Judging Awards at any level without field judging. I don't think that anybody has any problem with that.

The question being raised is that credits are being lost for previously earned judging chips for judging school and or CJE's.

To have a previously recorded credit removed from the record if something comes up that prevents you from judging as planned seems a little counter productive to me.

Also, the Judging Guidelines DO NOT indicate that previously earned credits will be removed from your judging record which is what I have been informed has been done recently.

E. Continuing Judges Education

The CJE program was designed to further and

Maintain the consistency level among AACA

National Judges.

1. Mandatory CJE Credit: All AACA National

Judges are required to participate

in at least one CJE seminar upon reaching

each Judging Award level, i.e., 10, 25, 50,

75, 100, 125, etc. Each AACA National

Judge will receive one CJE credit and

one CJE chip for each mandatory seminar

attended.

2. Voluntary CJE credit: As an incentive to all

AACA Judges participating in CJE seminars

is the awarding of one additional CJE

credit and one CJE chip. A maximum of

one CJE credit will be awarded each calendar

year for voluntary attendance.

As a courtesy to owners, judges are discouraged

from attending CJE seminars that relate

directly to the vehicles they will be judging that

day (i.e. if you are judging in the Model A class,

do not attend the Model A seminar).

Judges are invited and encouraged to attend

as many voluntary CJE seminars as they

can to further their education. A participation

card must be filled out for each CJE seminar

attended.

Clearly we need to keep this incentive. Removal of a credit previously earned is NOT an incentive.

Edited April 2, 2010 by MCHinson
Adding Text from Judging Guidelines (see edit history)

[Guest Siegfried]

2010 Judges Guidelines, page 6, states 'No judging awards can be earned

by attending judging schools only. And, 'No judging awards can be <O:p</O:p

earned by attending CJE seminars only.' Page 7, paragraph two, states '</O:p

In order to receive judging awards, a judge must field judge at least <O:p</O:p

one time per year. Field judging includes serving as an individual <O:p</O:p

catagory judge, team captain or administrator.'

<O:p</O:p

Don Bohne

Chairman, Continuing Judges Education

<O:p</O:p

What this means is, if someone goes to a judging school and/or CJE(s), but they do not judge, serve as Team Captian or as an Administrator within the calendar year of the classes, the credits for those classes will be removed from their record. <O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

Okay, this makes sense to me. We not only need judges to be educated, but we need judges to judge. I guess someone most have gotten judging awards without actually having judged, and I know this rule is meant to plug this gap in the judging credit system.

:confused: Now I do have a question to ask. What happens if someone attends a judging school, let’s say the one at annual meeting, but then for some reason, let’s say a health issue, cannot attend any national meets throughout the rest of that calendar year. Could a mechanism be put in place for that unfortunate judge to petition that the judging school credit be saved? I realize this is probably a bit over the top, but think about it as you might be in this situation yourself someday. I was close to this two years ago, and struggled physically to get to the eastern spring meet in 2008, and Hershey that year.

I mentioned judging school only because the school is either held independently of a meet, or the day before the meet. A CJE is/has always been held immediately prior to the start of judging, and if a judge attends a CJE then there must really be an extraordinary circumstance to prohibit their judging the same day unless, of course, they choose not to judge..

<O:p

[Steve Moskowitz]

Jim and Peter you pretty well have it all explained. If someone has a very unusual issue to bring before the VP of Judging and the Chairman of Judges records they should do so. However, this rule which has been in place for quite awhile is simply to stop people from attending schools and never judging. It happened. If you attend a school, you should at least be able to judge once a year. No loss of previous judging credits occurs, you just might not get a credit or credits (total of two) for the year you took CJE and a school but did not judge. If you had the time to take a CJE why would you not judge?

Let's not make this more complicated than it is. We need judges to keep up with their education so they can JUDGE not just get awards.

In any case, it is a rare instance now that someone does not fulfill their responsibilities. Thanks for your efforts everyone.

[msmazcol]

I'm sure I'm off track a bit but I must ask. I have attended judging school at each meet I had a vehicle on the show field. I'm only there to educate my own mind to better understand what THE Judges are looking for and at. I was once told to keep track of the attendance which I never did.

As with most group ventures like the AACA different people are in it for different things. Not all the Judges can do the hands on part of restoration.

Not all of us would be up for judging.

Can I still sit in on the school?

I do hear the request for judging help and trained people. It takes a lot of spokes to make a good wheel.

Thanks

[Guest Siegfried]

Hello MSMAZCOL,

Continue to attend judging schools. Perhaps someday you'll want to join in on judging. I did simply because it allowed me to up close to the cars. Also, I met a lot of owners, and other AACA members who were on the judging teams I served on. I always considered it a privelege to be in the judging program, and never an obligation.

Hope you join in someday. All the best.

[Shop Rat]

..... I do hear the request for judging help and trained people. It takes a lot of spokes to make a good wheel.

Thanks

Some folks call judging the hobby within the hobby. It is an amazing journey that starts with your first judging school and then apprentice judging team. After that you will meet many wonderful people and you will learn something from every one of them. Before you know it you are racking up not only credits but wonderful friendships.

Please join us. We can use all the good spokes we can get.