New to Riv -found a nice '64, Pre-buy ??s (long)

[Guest ErikDurocher]

Hello all - Great Forum!

Buicks have been in my family blood since the 1940s, my grandfather (RIP) would be thrilled that I'm 90% sure I'll buy a '64 Riviera. I've been looking at them for a couple years & found one that's been in CA for 20+ years -seems great.

I did just read through the string on "what to look for on a '63" and various other Riv strings.

- Excellent info & help from Tim & Ed & Mitch, etc. So, I have better Info on what to look at/expect. I'm above average in car-mech knowledge, but no expert - had a '75 Eldorado Conv. I fixed up some & sold 3 yrs. ago...been a car nut for 20+yrs.

This '64 Riv was given a very nice black paint job by Macco (door, hood, trunk, trim, bumber off), Dupont w/ clear coat in 2002 - near flawless still (orig. color was Surf Green). Underside of hood & trunk & door frames/hinges all are black, no sign of any Surf Green anywhere. Owner said there was a fender replaced due to previous bad bondo but there is no rust, wasn't any in trunk or wheel wells when painted & cloth trunkliner put in. (I've yet to see in person -just 20 great pics) so I'll investigate the wells, under rear window, etc., though paint is solid/bubble-free. -All door/panel gaps are near perfect, chrome & all trim/emblems in & out are shiny & like new, interior was re-done 6-8 yrs ago in a non-stock green vinyl/black cloth inserts & new wood -excellent. Said previous owner (pre-1999) had engine overhaul/rebuild way back? but there is no proof so I'll doubt that... He says he adds Octane booster to gas each fill.

Engine bay shows no rust, but has not been cleaned up & nothing looks new except some hoses done along w/ Trans cooler. Owner says it runs strong & smooth, never over-hot, no stalls, no leaks, very minor smoke just on start-up. It has pwr. windows & wood & long armrests/dual openers. Air Cond. & all lights & guages work (clock needs spring). Has stock/correct "Mag 5-spoke" chrome/black wheels.

Stated as Orig. #Matching 425 single 4brl carb w/ the 400Trans -120K+ miles.

My ??s:

Did all '64s have the 400 Trans std.? Was it a 2 or 3 speed? Owner says 3 speed but the selector only shows P,R,N,D,L. How can I tell what Trans this is? Code stamp on actual Trans?

As for determining Orig. #s matching Eng & Trans. -is it possible to see the stamped KW & VIN# on the block very easily without removing any components? (assuming dirt/oil is wiped off) Where & how hard would it be to see -what's closest component, ?inches from xyz? (I'm asking owner to send pic if he can find it).

I'll probably be into this one $12K+ once I get it home to San Diego & tuned w/ minor new parts... I plan to keep it as investment & eventually rebuild engine & repaint the engine bay/components stock black, etc.

Since it is Not the Orig. color exterior & Non-stock Interior/green carpet, no Tilt, no Sentinal, no Pwr seats, no RH exterior mirror, etc. Is it worth (relative I know) $12K? -Does the non-originality detract a lot from current/future value? (say 20%, 30%, 40%??? less than all orig. correct paint/interior & Matching # Rivs??) Others in this condition I've seen on-line are priced around $20K+

What should I expect to pay to have the heads redone to run on pump 89 octane gas? If I can take them off & apart by myself - then how much for shop to machine them & reinstall w/ gaskets, etc.?

Thanks for reading & thanks in advance for all help.

Cheers,

-Erik

[RivNut]

Erik,

I'll try to give you some answers to some of your questions but I'm going to stay away from anything having to do with $$$$..

First, a comment. The "Five spoke rally wheel" was not an option for the '64 Riviera. They first appeared on the '64 Wildcat and were first offerred as an option for the Riviera in '65.

Now to your questions.

The '64 Riviera was the first year for the TH400, but it did not have the s/p converter. It is a true three speed transmission even though there is only D and L on the shifter quadrant. There is a metal tag on the passenger's side of the transmission that will have the year and code stamped into it. Here's a link for transmission references.

Team Buick Reference

The KW and VIN should be visible on the machined surface where the valley cover lies. The KW should be on your left, the VIN on your right. Here's a link that shows you where to look":

Team Buick

As I said, I'm not getting into $$$, but there shouldn't be any reduction in price for a different color than what's specified on the trim tag. BCA judging doesn't take away points as long as the color was a factory original color. I'd look more at the quality of the paint than the color of the paint. Balck is pretty universal and widely accepted - but it shows dirt, dings, and waves more than any other color. But it also looks great when everything is clean and straight.

The clock probably just needs cleaning. The clock has a main spring in it that will run the clock for about 5 minutes. The spring winds down and an electrical contact energizes the spring and it rewinds. The enegizing contact only lasts for less than a second. Usually a good spray with an electrical contact cleaner will get it working again. The clock comes out of the front of the dash, it's not a big job. Twist it counter clockwise until the spring holder releases it, then pull it out. Two wires - one for the 12V one for the lamp.

To run on 89 octance gas, you'll probably have to rebuild with lower compression pistons, rework the metering and jets in the carburetor, and upgrade the distributor.

Keep us updated.

Ed

[Guest kaycee]

Another option on lowering compression rather than go to lower compression pistons and less expensive would be to see if the thicker (.045) headgaskets used on the '63 LeSabres match up, versus the stock .015 thick gaskets. I used them on a '63 425 nailhead with no problems, and it changes compression ratio from 10.25 down to 9 on a 401, which should run 89 octane gas.

kaycee

[lrlforfun]

OK Eric: This car sounds like it's about $7000. too high. I have seen several tidy examples of 63-64 Rivs sell for about that $5K range. Also, there are probably quite a few in the San Diego/So Cal area. Always best to look at something with your own two eyes in person. Shop around too. The economy really stinks right now and there are sellers that haven't fantasy priced their cars because they need to sell them. Good luck, Mitch.

[Guest ErikDurocher]

Thank you Ed, Kaycee & Mitch - all good to know...

Mitch, though helpful, your reply dicourages me and indicates something very different than what my last 6 months of research & online Riv search has shown. Of the 50ish '63-'66 Drivable Rivs I've seen advertised this month in the 100+ web-sites & sources such as: Hemmings, Classic Auto Trader, Ebay, Craigslist in major sunny cities, ROA, Team Buick, Duffy's, Hooked on Classics, Oldride.com, StreetDreamstexas.com, ClassicStreet, Goodguys rod & customs, americanhotrodz.com, VIPclassics.com, etc. -and the all the 200+ sites of small nationwide independent classics dealers shown here: Classic Car Dealers, Antique and Collector Cars For Sale -yes, I've searched EACH of them... any nice Riv that is shown to be complete, running, rust-free, has new-ish quality paint, shiny pit/rust-free chrome & trim, complete nice clean or new interior, Orig. # Matching engine, and does not need $5K-$15K worth of rust/paint/engine/int work - is priced at $15K-$30K...

So, I'd be very glad to see the "several tidy $5K examples" you mention. Where are these??

In fact, I'll personally pay you $250 to find me one as described above for under $8K, or as nice & 95+% complete (personal educated opinion) as this black one I'm considering.

I want to avoid the unknown rust/body/paint restoration that could easily cost $10K if done right & rather not have to immediately rebuild a engine before enjoying the car for a few years (5K miles) weekend cruising & shows.

Offer stands for all site members - car must be '64-'67 425cu or "better" orig. #s matching Riviera that has solid rust free trunk/floors/panels (orig. or new) minor underside/eng. bay surface rust ok, has under 10 yr old professional bondo-free shiny paint job (not white), complete clean tear/crack-free interior (under 10 yr old replacement or VERY nice CLEAN original), Speedo, Odom., fuel guage & 95% electrics/lights & pwr. windows working, easy starting smooth-running engine (nearly/fully leak-free, running on all 8 cyl & not needing head-job/overhaul ASAP), fresh tires, safe brakes, working A/C & heat, solid dual exhaust & clean title. -under $8K.

I certainly couldn't find a comparible Matching #s '65-'66 Mustang Fastback A-code under $18K, or '64-'68 Skylark Conv., '66-'68 Firebird 400 Conv. under $18K, or much else even half as nice as this '64 Riv. under $18K - most are over $20K... So this Riv seems like a deal at $11K i.m.h.o.

Thoughts?

Edited March 27, 2010 by ErikDurocher (see edit history)

[gungeey]

Why worry about the original look of the engine area and have the interior a million miles from stock? The car has been customized. Not a problem,but bottom line, you can find a lot more car with your 12K imo. Have Patience. Join the ROA and check out the classifieds for private sales of fellow members or leads from the same. Preserverence pays with 1st generation rivieras. When you find the right one there will be no need to ask any more questions on this site. It will "ring your bell" and will be donning a "SOLD" sign on her.

Steve9236

PS: This is in reply to the OP.

[RivNut]

Erik,

Have you been able to confirm the ID of the engine yet? I'm wondering why the air cleaner and the oil breathers aren't '64 Vintage. The air cleaner looks to be from a '63 and I've never seen one with the hole in the side of the snorkle. There's quite a bit of work to be done to the interior to get all the colors coordinated back to something resembling OE. Personally, something in my gut would say "look at this car very, very closely."

Quite a few years ago, and through messing with quite a number of cars, I finally learned to buy with your head; not your heart. My most recent purchase was a '64 that had bad paint, and corduroy interior in it. It didn't look great, but it was AZ - there was no rust in it,. I am painting and reupholstering to fit my own tastes, and the engine and transmission were in great shape. I bought it for $1,800.00 and won't have any more than another $8,500 in it before it will be exactly what I want. That includes, disk brakes front and rear, posi rear end, an o/d transmission, and a Vintage Air system that will really clean up the dash and the firewall. Those 15K to 18K cars have a ton of profit built into them unless the seller made a big $$$$$ mistake when he bought it and he's trying to cover his mistake.

I also looked at the rest of the pictures that are posted in the Craigslist listing for this car. 64 Buick Riviera

Looking at them also brings up questions as to why the hood doesn't fit the fender line and what's going on with the under carriage? I'd be willing to bet that because this car is not being sold by an individual but rather by a dealer, that there is a ton of profit built into that $11,000 price tag. You also have to take the word of a non-owner on what has and hasn't been done to this car.

A little opinion and a lot of fact. Look before you leap.

Ed

[Guest ErikDurocher]

Thanks Ed -all great points.

I'm still waiting for VIN block stamp verification...

To clarify though, Wayne, the owner of past 10 yrs., is the title-holding seller & the car remains in his garage - american-icons is just a service that helps advertise for a fee. Wayne is a nice retired guy battling health issues & may not be very camera/internet savvy, he had the paint & interior work done in 2002.

The photo/s showing hood elevated is simply because it was popped to open during photo shoot. I inquired about the apparent leak on the fuel tank & owner said this was due to the gas-cap missing the gasket -replaced yesterday. (believable?)Looked like perhaps a brake line was leaking on top of the Rearend too - does anyone see other issues to be concerned with??

Wayne said "his mechanic" found no leaks on underside...

I'm trying to arrange for the owner to take it to the GM dealer or other non-biased Mechanic for a buyers inspection/compression check, though he's hesitant to let anyone he doesn't know mess with it. -I know, not a great sign. He is very particular and also low on energy/time due to cancer, but I let him know I'd never make the mistake of not having an old car checked out by a non-biased professional and inspecting in person before buying. We'll see how bad he wants to sell - & how "Firm" the $11K is.

You are right - I'll be joining the ROA to learn & find more.

As for the non-stock interior, I actually like it a lot - it grew on me & doesn't need anything but some black floor mats, though (if I buy it) I may switch to "more OE" leather/suede 5+ yrs down the road.

I'm not concerned about the engine bay/components being/looking all OE (aside from #s Matching) because I'd probably get a chrome open-sided or mesh air cleaner & chrome valve covers, & Alternator, other eng trim, etc. Maybe even a better new bare aluminum radiator w/ elec. fans., braided stainless hoses, Electronic ignition, headers, etc. The Disc-brakes & Posi rear, along with some Boyd/Cragar/Rocket type 5-spoke 18" wheels would also be on the list - when $$ is more available.

This is probably the last thing the ROA members want to see/hear, but the non-OE look as is -and w/ any future changes I'd make, is actually a benefit in making it more attractive to buyers in the San Diego market, who would pay in the $20K+ ballpark for a solid, powerful, shiny, unique, custom classic -should I want/need to sell it in 2-5 years. (it's amazing that a $2200 set of big wheels/tires & $300 in chrome can add $5000 to sale price, -based on seeing dozens of mild-custom classics sold at auctions & elsewhere). Most people don't want to bother with doing the work -and many people have more $$ than brains (even classic car enthusiasts) we're an instant gratification society - I see/live both sides.

I know that I'm attracted to this one since it's all pretty shiny black & great chrome, cool new interior, new wheels/tires, etc. -without need for much. Yes, unknown what engine may need -but that is something I'd be more able & happy to handle than endless rust/paint/electrical work & finding 300 interior/trim pieces...

---- Sorry, don't mean for this to be a book or my personal blog. ;-)

Thanks all for the tips, cautions, guidance, etc. - the more the merrier & feel free to point me toward a better/cheaper '64-'67 Riv. choice.

-Erik

Edited March 27, 2010 by ErikDurocher (see edit history)

[tim63riv]

Erik,

I fully agree about the rust free body and nice paint, those things cost huge dollars to put right! You are the only one who has to be happy with the purchase! Seems like you have done a lot of research into asking prices, have you followed up on the actual selling prices too? I never buy any collector car for an investment, I only buy ones that make me smile when I drive them! First generation Riviera's aren't rare, and there are A LOT of nice ones out there, go to an ROA Annual Meet if you would like to see some VERY nice Riviera's! Good luck with your search and purchase!

Tim

[RivNut]

Erik,

Sorry about the red flag on the hood. I was looking at the side view picture and didn't bother to see that in the picture of the front, the hood isn't fully closed.

I'm neiter a purist nor a confirmed "if you own, customize" guy. I've got a '63 that is as stock as it can be right down to the original window sticker. On the other hand, my '64 is in the process of becoming a mild custom. If you're thinking is along the lines of redoing some things to this car to suit your individual tastes, and the colors are something you like, then by all means this might be a good place to start. When (if ) you get the car, and you want to start doing some of the other stuff you're thinking about, let us know and we can guide you to sources. If you want chrome vavle covers, there are none on the aftermarket, so just have yours chrome plated. Cast aluminum valve covers are the big thing for the nailhead. They came OE in 64 and 65 with the Super Wildcat engine option. The ROA and the guys (like Tim and Jim and Dave to name a few) who participate on this forum have a wealth of knowledge about your car and what is available for it.

See what the seller/American Icons say about driving the car down to you in return for a plane ticket home. If it's really road worthy, they'll probably agree to it. If they balk at it, you might have reason to ask "why not?" and learn something from it.

Ed

Edited March 24, 2010 by RivNut (see edit history)

[cjp69]

Erik,

Best of luck with this car and let us know how it checks out. This is one of the few cars with a green interior I liked.