help starting Model T

[bhclark]

Okay....I'm having a bit of trouble starting my Model T. Looking for help.

I've read 5 or 6 on-line instruction lists, plus the manual itself.

It's a 1922 Touring with electric start.

I've got the parking brake all the way back

Throttle control is around the 5th to 7th notch (I have tried it in multiple positions)

Spark Advance is around the 4th notch. (I have tried it in multiple positions)

Switch is turned to Magneto (do I need to turn key and turn lights on?)

Battery is charged

fuel shutoff under gas tank is turned on

I have been pulling the priming knob out for a few seconds at a time.

It doesn't sound like I'm supposed to be pushing down on any pedals to start with, correct?

I have a question about the carburetor....the manual says if the engine is cold, turn the adjustment knob (under the dash), a quarter turn. My question is where should the knob be to begin with?

When I started, it was turned all the way clockwise. Is this shutting down all flow of gas to the carb?

The engine is turning over and I can hear a hiss at the carburetor. (the more I crank, the faster it turns...I guess it's getting all lubed up and is turning over easier)

any assistance would be greatly appreciated!

Can't wait to get this puppy out on the road! Never driven one before!

Edited March 21, 2010 by bhclark (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

Open the carb adjustment about 2 turns to start. gas on under tank? Switch to battery to start, Mag to run. Choke for 2 revolutions. left spark lever up gas lever down 1/4. try it and listen for the coils to buzz while cranking. If there is no coil buzzing from each clean and adjust the coil points. It helps to jack a rear wheel off the ground with the front wheels firmly chocked. Good Luck! If this fails to get a pop check the compression.

[TheMoneyPit]

Bat & Mag positions are easilly confused at first - try the key one way and listen for the buzzing of all four coils - if nothing try the other way - if the car is equiped with a distributor the bets are off - you will get no buzz...

[bhclark]

Thanks. Haven't had the chance to get back to where the car is stored yet.

Will update once I give her another go.

I also think I need to pull the gas tank and clean it out...feels sort of sludgy in there. I think it might be slowing the flow of the gas.

the carb adjustment is probably the best key to getting her started though!

Thanks!!!!!!

[bhclark]

Okay. Figured out the problem. The gas tank is full of CRAP.

I dumped out 6 gallons of brown gas and strained out a cup of rust and gunk.

Question, I have what appears to be an original Ford model T gas tank.

It has 2 dividers build into the tank with what appears to be a 1 inch hole between the 3 tanks to equalize the fuel. I suppose this was to eliminate the gas slushing around?

Question is....how the hell do I clean this thing out when I can only access 1 of the 3 sections of the tank?

I have a good radiator guy that I can take it to on Monday.

The only thing I can think of is to drill another 2 inch hole in each of the other 2 sections to give good access to clean it out?

I'm sure this is a common issue?

Suggestions, please?????

[JFranklin]

Take it to the radiator shop and tell them to give it back clean! that is all you have to do. I use water and lye that will eat the gunk out. Or just flush it out with water and strong detergent if it is semi-liquid.

[TheMoneyPit]

The radiator shop will know what to do, and if they do tanks may even be able to e-coat the inside with something that will not be eaten by the ethanol based fuels but still capture the rust that flushing does not always get.

I also hide a fuel filter in-line hidden in a frame rail (pre 26 cars) - the bigger the better due to the gravity feed. If you change the fuel line use steel not copper. Copper will work-harden with the vibration and fatige over time creating a potential for fires under the car.

[bhclark]

My radiator guy doesn't do radiotor/gas tank work anymore. Closed his shop and went to work for the man.

He sent me to a American Metal Cleaning. They said it would sparkle when they give it back. $75 for a total cleaning.

I should have it back in a week.

Then I'll still need to figure out what to seal the bare metal with and hope I can get it all covered.

[bhclark]

I am having my 10 gallon gas tank for my Model T boiled out.

It is supposed to come back clean as a whistle.

I didn't want to attempt the clean out because there are 2 baffles in the tank which eliminate my ability to see whether I actually got the tank clean or not.

If the tank comes back perfectly clean with no leaks, do I really need to install any kind of a sealer? I mean, weren't gas tanks bare metal from the factory? Obviously, if the rust damage was extreme, I may have to use a sealer regardless.

My problem with trying to seal it is the same as cleaning it, I have no way to see inside the 2 sections of tank that are baffled off and could have poor adhesion or coverage.

I was thinking of maybe putting a quart of motor oil in the tank when I get it back and letting it coat all surfaces then draining it. Would that be bad on the fuel when I add it back?

Any other ideas?

[JFranklin]

I would not seal it unless there are leaks. You can always seal it at a later date if you have problems the cleaning did not solve. I would add a little 2 stroke oil, or Marvel Mystery oil to your gasoline as a top oil and to keep the tank from further corrosion.

[bhclark]

Thanks. I've read that some people add kerosene to the gasoline to lower the octane rating and more closely match the gasoline available in the Model T era?

Any reason to do that or just use straight 87 pump gas? (with a little Marvel Mystery Oil)

How about zddp or lead additive?

[TheMoneyPit]

I did not have any leaks and did not seal the tank either - if/when you rebuild the sediment bulb there is a product that is a gasoline proof grease I used to lubricate it which has held up for several touring seasons. I have a 26 Fordor which is the only 26-7 CAR body style with the round tank still under the seat instead of in the cowling. Of cours trucks & bare chassis also came with the round tanks...

Adding oil to your gas will not really help or hurt - it may foul the plugs a little faster and if you are smoking it will be hard to tell if from the oil in the gas or bad rings.

[JFranklin]

Marvel Mystery Oil won't smoke if used following directions on the can. It is a good top oil that keeps the rings and valves free and prevents rust in the tank.

[bhclark]

Thanks Guys. I'm hoping to get the call from American Metal Cleaning today or tomorrow saying it is complete.

Inspecting the sediment bulb, it's a really neat design. Metal filter on top that inserts into the tank is in good condition. Shutoff appears to work fine.

There is a small screen inside the bowl as well to prevent the sediment from flowing back out of the bowl if it does make it through.

Only thing I don't like is that the bowl is plastic and hard to see through.

I'll have to check and see if I have a glass bowl that will fit. I did replace an oversize rubber gasket with one that fits.

Hopefully, the filter did it's job and the carb is clean. I know if was running when I bought it and if I agitated the tank, I probably could have gotten enough gas to it, but it obviously needed cleaned out, so I'm glad I did it.

I can't wait....we've got 10 days of 70 and sunny in the forecast. I need to get her on the road and ready for the first car show of the season on 4/25!

[JFranklin]

Take a photo of your filter and post it. I cant picture what your looks like. It should be all metal if it is original.

[bhclark]

Here's the filter. It is unmarked.

It screws into threads that appear to have been soldered into the base of the gas tank, probably in place of the original?

It's similar to a '50's bowl filter, but the top has the mesh filter installed. Can't figure out exactly how. Looks like one piece to me.

The brass arm is the shutoff.

I am not sure what the original is supposed to look like.

[JFranklin]

Looks like a reasonable filter for the job does it have a shut off so you can remove the carburetor without draining the tank?

[bhclark]

The little brass arm facing down on the screen is the shutoff.

Can't see it in action, but it does work.

[bhclark]

Got the gas tank back today.

I have found 1 pin hole. near the rolled edge, but looks fixable.

3 questions:

1. Is this an original tank (with some obvious repairs on the outlet?)

B. Do you recommend JB Weld or Solder to seal the pin hole?

Z. What do you recommend I use for paint? Want something fairly gasoline resistant. Were they painted black to begin with? Would POR-15 or something similar provide some additional leak protection or just prep, prime and paint?

Tried to get a picture of the pin hole, but my camera isn't that good....

Also added a picture of the gas cap after a bit of polishing.

Thanks!

Edited April 8, 2010 by bhclark (see edit history)

[bhclark]

Ran with the JB Weld. Wish I would have pressure tested first. Waited an entire day for the JB weld to dry, then found another hole. so, patched that one and will pressure test again. I'm using 25 psi.

Seems to be working well, I have a rubber nozzle that fits the outlet perfectly and the gas cap lets just enough air out to prevent me from putting too much pressure in the tank. (I do get a cool shot of air when I pull the rubber nozzle out though!)

I do have another question. Are these electric starters usuallly 12 volt or 6 volt?

The battery in the car does not specify. I checked the model number and google shows it as 12 volt, but I've been charging it with my battery tender for a month and it won't go above 8 volts (Which sounds right for a 6 volt battery). It's only about a year or so old according to the sticker.

I would think if it is a 6 volt battery, the battery tender would give an error code and not charge it at all since it's a 12 volt charger???

Any ideas?

[TheMoneyPit]

The car is originally a 6 volt - a lot of people put in 8 volt batteries but they can over-charge enough to blow the 6V bulbs.

The best money spent is to call one of the Model T parts suppliers and get a reprint of the Ford Service Manual - it will lead you thru all the finish adjustments and some troubleshooting. More help can be found on the MTFCA website forum - a lot more guys read the postings there than here - I check those first thing over my lunch hour and end here IF I get the chance.

[bhclark]

Gas Tank cleaned out....Check

Pin Hole repaired with JB Weld.....Check

Gas Tank primed and painted....Check

Gas Tank installed.....Check

Gas tank removed, installed and removed and installed in order to figure out exactly how shutoff valve worked....Check.

end result? SHE FIRED UP on the first turn of the key! a little noisy and a little smoky, but seemed to run fine. I did jack up the rear wheels, but it didn't seem necessary. The brake kept the tires still until I released it, then they spun nice and fast.

I'm going to review the manual tonight and take her on her first maiden voyage under my ownership tomorrow.

Thanks for all of the advice and encouragement....I couldn't have done it without your help!

One question (that I hope I find the answer to in the manual...). I adjusted the carb valve 2 turns(2 entire 360 turns counter clockwise from stop) and it seemed to work just fine, but there was a significant difference in the idle as I adjusted it back and forth.

How do I determine the best place to keep this adjustment set? Is this the equivalent of an idle mixture screw? I don't want to do any damage by running it too lean or too rich.

The car is in a garage on an alley right now, so I will take a quick exit, then head to the (hopefully empty) funeral home parking lot to practice)

There was a few drops of oil near the very front right of the engine.....

[JFranklin]

If it starts well 2 turns open I would lean it out after it warms a bit set the adjustment where it idles best warm usually. It is like a GAV on the Model A Fords.

[bhclark]

WOW

OMG

YIPPEE!!!

What a thrill! Took me a while to get her started. Had to adjust the carb and shutoff valves a bit, flooded the carb letting fuel flow out everywhere.

Opened the petcock at the bottom and let it drain, which it probably needed anyway.

Finally, she purred right to life!

Got the hang of it pretty quick, there were a few stalls, mostly from letting the clutch out instead of in.

Only other real learning curve I had was remembering to lower the throttle when stopping..I over revved a few times.

Reverse was a bit tricky, but learned to just leave the parking brake engaged and that worked pretty well!

I started out on a few alleys to get the hang of starting and stopping and to make sure everything was okay, then moved to the streets.

I'm sure you guys can imagine the size of the grin on my face going down the main road at 30 MPH. (A guess, I was at full throttle) I certainly understand now why everyone says that is plenty fast enough!

The most interesting part was when I pulled into a church parking lot to turn around, I could really feel the design of the suspension, with every corner accepting the curves of the incline at a different time. I can really see how this would have worked well on the old dirt roads.

Attached are a few pictures....sorry, no movies or moving images, just me and the wife. We also took the grandkids around the block a few times. Probably put about 5 or 6 miles on it total.

I do have a few questions...I was a little confused with the spark advance and high gear.

How soon should you shift into high gear? I started out getting pretty up on the throttle before letting the clutch out, but decided maybe I was revving too high. Then switching earlier, I felt I was "lugging" the engine. Is this how it's supposed to feel?

Also, how fast do you normally advance the spark? I never really heard the engine knock, but couldn't tell a whole lot of difference for the most part as to where the spark advance is, but definitely don't want to do any damage by not advancing it enough. At full speed, should both be fully lowered? I think I figured mine felt best at about 60% on the spark advance? Also, does this need to be dropped when you stop each time. The manual was a little confusing, saying it should only be retarded when encountering a steep hill or difficult road?

So, any advice on throttle and when to shift into high gear and spark advance would be greatly appreciated. My 1919 manual seems to assume I've been driving a Model T for a few years.

I think I did DAMN good for the very first time out!

I did encounter 1 problem...the fan belt came off 3 times. (good thing we went out without the hood or I wouldn't have noticed!) I think it might have been a result of some rough shifts as it stayed on for the last 3 or 4 miles. It seems a rather silly design to have ribs on the top to keep it from falling off, but none on the bottom? It seems fairly tight.....I had to muscle it quite a bit and "roll" it on the upper pulley to get it back on, but don't want to do any damage by over tightening either.

Pics of oil leaks and belt attached as well. I'm assuming it's supposed to leak.

[bhclark]

One more question on oil level. I found two petcocks on what I would normally call the bellhousing below the car. They are about 6 inches apart. Are these the ones the manual describes for checking the oil level? I loosened the top one and a little oil dribbled out (I had cranked it a few times previously trying to start it), so I am assuming it is properly full?

Thanks!

BTW, this was my first time EVER in a (moving) car earlier than a 1958.

My wife enjoyed it so much, she might not let me sell it and I may not want to anymore!

She said it reminded her of the "old tyme" cars they used to run at the local amusement park. (They looked like A's or T's, but I think they ran on lawnmower engines...)

[JFranklin]

The belt pulleys need to be completely parallel and the belt rides on the crown of the pulley. The spark need to be advanced somewhat after starting and more when running fast. retard for starting and climbing a hill. Don't lug when you go into high gear you can break the crank. When shifting shut the throttle between shifts and start back in high giving it gas evenly without lugging. retard the spark some pulling up speed after the shift. you actually get to drive a model T not just go for a ride!

The oil at the top petcock shows full, no oil at the bottom is bad, keep your eye on it.

Edited April 18, 2010 by JFranklin (see edit history)

[TheMoneyPit]

GOOD DEAL! I'm gald one more three-leg monster is back on the road!

As for the oil - there is an accessory oil sight gauge you put into the bottom hole that will allow you to see the level without turning the petcock - woth buying one. Both my 15 and 26 cars like to be about 1/4" under the top hole - if filled until it runs out there I'll have oil dripping out everywhere.

Your fan may need new bushings installed - they are available thru the parts vendors - if worn they allow the hubs to become un-parrallel and you will slip the belt frequently - there is a guide you can buy but that will mask a problem not fix it.

[bhclark]

Thanks MoneyPit! I actually picked up one of those gauges on Ebay for $5 but had no idea where to install it! Sounds like it will be a quick messy install. From your description, it does sound like the car may have too much oil in it.

I'll look into the fan belt solutions in my parts books. Thanks!

There are 2 car shows to start the season this Sunday....one is rain or shine, the other has a rain date...unfortunately, we have rain scheduled Saturday through Tuesday so the T may not make the beginning of the season. (Not worried about the rain, more about my comfort as it's still cold at night here in Ohio, so the morning drive without the top would be miserable in the rain.)

I can't wait to get the car in front of other "T" era owners to get some 1 on 1 feedback since I have no reference to go by.

[JFranklin]

Did you get it to the car show OK?

[bhclark]

Here's the story......

We had our share of drama....The T didn't want to start, but finally got underway after playing with the carb a bit.

We were headed for a car show about 10 miles from home, but the weather was questionable and the car wasn't running as smoothly as I had hoped. (maybe the second trip took some of the excitement out of 30mph?)

We took a side route toward another car show and I decided to take a trip through the parking lot to see what they had to offer. (about 200 cars on site...all makes and models including something I somehow missed, but it looked like the Firebird II concept car as it drove away.)

As we turned into the car show, the brake pedal went to the floor, so I have to figure out what's up with that. I only have about an inch of pedal now....stops the car from 10mph, but not much.

Had a good show, lots of interest in the '22 and the '59. a good mix of cars, unfortunately, due to the weather forecast, we waited until the last minute to decide to go and forgot the camera.

They handed out the awards a bit early as it had finally started raining.

Waited out a little storm, then pulled the tarp off Lizzie and headed for home.

Car would not start. thought I flooded it, so I drained the carb...finally got her going. Took the first turn and she quit.

Oh, yeah, I remembered, the gas station was supposed to be our first stop when we left home!

Wife went for gas....$8.00 for a 1 gallon can at the third place she went! That got me back up and running again. 1 more stop to top off the tank, and we headed for home in a light drizzle. Gee, I never thought I would say this.....I sure wish that girl had a top on!

All in all, a good day.

I took home one of the "Best Ford" trophies for Lizzie. I was the oldest car at the show, there was also a model A sedan there.

My '59 Buick took home the "Best 4 door" trophy!

Any ideas on what to look at first on the brakes? I haven't had a chance to consult the manual yet.

[bhclark]

Took the kids for ice cream. I seem to be lacking power in high gear?

I can get lots of power out of low, but when I switch to high, it doesn't seem to matter whether the throttle is 1/4 open or wide open...same power either way?

I've tried fiddling with the carb adjustment, but no change. Does it sound like a dirty carb?

[TheMoneyPit]

I'd start there - then look at the plugs for fouling and then coils. T's are not big on power but it sounds like you have less than you should.