What to look for on a '63

[Guest Framer]

Hi All,

Just signed up today... looking for some high level guidance on what to look for on a '63.

Local car for sale... appears to be in decent condition from the pics.

Before I go down to see it, though you guys could give me the top things to look for.

In my limited research, I see that the floors and rear quarters are area's of concern... anything else I should keep am eye out for?

Quoted from the ad:

"Brown mist exterior, dark brown vinyl roof, luxury sports coupe, 445 Wildcat Engine, 425 horsepower, 401 cu.in. Nailhead V8, automatic dyno flow transmission, dual exhaust. Power steering, power windows, power bucket seats, AM stereo, trip odometer, original sandlewood vinyl upholstery, spare tire & jack. Trumpet horn. Original car, unrestored."

I think he means to say 325HP.. as I see it was either a 325hp version or 340hp?

Car has 110K miles... not sure if any engine work or tranny work has been completed.

He's asking $7500 Canadian... approx $7150 USD. My gut tells me (depending on overall condition) that might be a bit strong. Thoughts?

Any tips would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Chuck

[Jim Cannon]

Can you post the pix?

[RivNut]

Chuck,

From reading what you've already said, it sounds like you've acquainted yourself fairly well on what to look for. From the experiences I've had with my '63 since 1982, I'll try to give you a couple of things to look/watch for. The transmission in the '63 is a Dynaflow. Although it says PNDLR on the shifter quadrant, the transmisson does not "shift" as you normally think of shiftiing. There's one speed from zero to how ever fast you want to drive it. According to the chassis manual, the low range is used for "getting out of sand or snow" and not to be used as a driving gear. There are very few mechanics or shops who know what a Dynaflow is. The heat, a/c, blower, and other temperature controls are controlled by cables under the dash. If the cables are "stuck" or the temp control valve is corroded and some one tries to loosen them by pushing even harder, the diecast levers will break easily. If the temperature control lever or any other levers work too easily, they're probably broken. If the car has power vent windows, the window gear will sometimes break the first tooth off the gear. If that happens, you can't get it to open or completely close it using the motor. . Giving it a push start will engage what's left of the teeth and it will work fine. The dome light switches in the door jamb sometimes come apart. Easily repaired by a guy in the ROA. Other than that, it's been a well built solid, reliable car for me. 197,000 miles

If the air cleaner lid is original, the 445 Wildcat is the 325 horse engine, and the 465 wildcat is the 340 horse engine. There is a sure fire way to tell; the engine code on the top of the block behind the water crossover pipe will read JT for a '63 401, or JW for a '63 425. If it gets down to that, write back and I'll go into more detail and send you a pictures showing you where to look.

I'm sure that Jim, and Tim, and some other tech guys will chime in and tell you their experiences. Price depends on what you want, and what you'll have to spend to get it there. The nicer the car is to begin with will probably save you money in the long run.

Good luck and keep us informed.

Ed

Edited January 28, 2010 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Guest Framer]

Hi Jim,

The only pic I have is from the ad... and it's not all that telling.

[Guest Framer]

Hi Ed,

Thanks very much for this... exactly what I was looking for!

I'm an old GM guy... sold my numbers matching '67 Chevelle SS about 4 years ago. I've had a few interesting cars since... my latest is a '91 Mercedes Benz 500SL that I'm contimplating selling... need to get back to my roots!

I've always liked the lines of the '63 and think it would make a great cruiser. I agree, the better it is to start with the better off you are in the end.

This one appears to be a survivor so my concern would be motor/tranny rebuilds down the road but I need to see it in person first.

I'll keep you posted on how I make out.

Chuck

[petelempert]

C-It looks nice, but pictures can hide a lot. If you go see it, I'd check the rear window area for rust or worse yet, cheap rust repair along the bottom edge. The vinyl roof can hide a lot of sins. See if you can get a good look beneath the package tray. Good luck. Hope it turns out to be a good one! PRL

[John]

Looks good in the picture and could be a deal! The vinyl top was not available in 63 so look for other mods that might detract from value. Weak spots on these cars are leakage around the windshield and rear window, rust in the body mounts especially the ones into the trunk floor, rust in the floor pan especially in the cross braces, and rust around the rear wheel wells. This was the last year for the Dynaflow AT--make sure its performing right as it might be difficult to find someone experienced to service it.

John

[RivNut]

Chuck,

Ask the owner:

1) Why he put a vinyl top on the car; OE vinyl tops did not appear on Rivieras until 1965. Is it hiding the rust around the rear window channel that Pete made reference to (and I forgot to mention.) The design of the channel holds water. It can rust and let water run into the trunk. That will effect the trunk floor and the lower fenders behind the rear wheels.

I also re-read your original posting after looking at the picture. Here's another question:

2) How can it have a stereo radio when a '63 Riviera has only one speaker - in the back between the rear seats. If it is truly a stereo set up, the owner has had to put a front speaker(s) somewhere. It can't be in the center of the dash, that's where those a/c - heater controls are I mentioned earlier.

3) Is this a repaint? "Brown Mist" is not a '63 Buick color. The Fisher Body tag on the firewall will have letter code for the paint. It will be two of the same stamped upper case letters.

Rare options appear to include:

1) the Guidematic - torpedo looking device on the dash - which dims the headlights when the photo cell picks up the lights of an on coming car (or every street lamp you pass under.) The modulators on these can be very tricky.

2) what appears to be a twilight sentinel - medicine bottle cap shaped device next to the Guidematic - which automatically activates the headlights at dusk. Once again, an area for scrutiny.

3) the four note horn option which he mentioned is also a desirable option.

It looks like the car, if it's in good shape, is quickly approaching the asking price. It may be worth even more than the asking price.

If you'll send me a PM with your email address, I'll reply with a scanned copy of my 63's window sticker. I think my car has every option except the rear window defogger. A lot of the equipment that the seller is listing in his ad is standard equipment on the '63 Riviera. PS, PB, dual exhaust, trip odometer, etc. My window sticker will ID those "following items, optional on some other models, that are standard on this 1963 model - Riviera 2 dr. spt. coupe." so far all that has been listed by the seller that are options are the power seat, power windows, and four note "trumpet" horns.

One other item more of a curious nature. Is the speedometer calibrated in Kilometers or Miles Per Hour?

Ed

Edited January 29, 2010 by RivNut
Added speedo queston (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

Chuck,

A few other things not previously mentioned:

• The deluxe interior with wood door trim and long armrests with dual handles is a nice plus.
  
• The round plastic Riviera script emblems on the hood, steering wheel, doors, and rear seat grille are unique to the 63 and harder to find. The hood ornament should be the flat lay-down type only used in 63.
  
• Check out all the diecast chrome inside and out, especially the taillight bezels. If it is not pitted that is valuable since little repro is available. The round taillight lens emblems are also unique to 63.
  
• Original interior and trunk trim in nice shape is rare, especially things like floor mats, spare tire cover, etc. Most is available repro if needed.
  

That vinyl top would make me nervous, good luck.

[RivNut]

Chuck,

After reading Don's comments, I looked at the picture again. I think that there is part of the wood grain visible on the driver's door panel, so I believe that this car does have the custom interior. It also appears that the wheel is tilted up which would indicate the tilt wheel option.

But, the other thing I noticed when Don mentioned the diecast on the tail light bezels and tail light lens centers was that in '63, the Riviera had B U I C K spelled out in block letters across the center of the trunk. Starting in '64, a scripted Riviera was used in the right hand corner of the trunk. I don't see the block letters, but I do see something on the right hand corner.

Is the antenna a power unit and stuck at mid staff or a manual unit that's sitting at the mid staff?

Ed

[Guest Framer]

Ed/Don,

Thanks again very much for all the insight!

I just spoke to the owner and have set up an appointment to see the car next Monday.

Durning the course of the conversation I found out the following:

• Car was in storage for 13 years (up until 3 years ago)
  
• Has been in the family since 1970
  
• 2nd Owner
  
• Tranny had a pump replaced last summer ($1300 cost)
  
• Front and rear bumpers need re-chrome
  
• Window seals need replacing
  
• Guidematic not working
  
• BUICK emblem was replaced 2 years ago... he put the Riv emblem on its place (didn't know any better)
  
• Body has a scrape just behind the drivers door and a dent in the rear facia (backed into something)
  
• He says there is some surface rust but the top is in good contition ( car was appraised last year)
  

A couple of guys have looked at it and didn't bite. I asked what the feedback was... first guy felt the bumper re-chrome would be too costly and the second guy pissed the owner off by offering him $500 less than his asking price!:eek:

I had a nice chat with him... he is an older gentleman. He admitted to me that he had visions of this car being worth alot more than his asking price... but I explained the reality of this car NOT being a survivor due to the repaint and top.

I won't know until I see it in person if its worth restoring based on the info above. I have contacts in the body and paint department... but the question becomes will I ever get the money out if I redo it... by the sounds of things it may not be the case.

Any feeling on what the Guidematic would cost to get running again if it is the modulator?

Again, thanks for all the feedback...I appreciate it!

Will take some pics on Monday and post them up.

Chuck

Edited January 29, 2010 by Framer (see edit history)

[RivNut]

Chuck,

When I was driving my '63 on a daily basis back in the mid 80's I tired of the guidematic very quickly, and shut it off. I found that manually raising and lowering the headlights was less frustrating than constantly trying to over ride them every time I'd pass under a street light.

Use the malfunctioning guidematic as a lever in your purchase, but I'd just keep it on the dash as a decoration and tell people what it's purpose is and just hope they don't ask for a demonstration.

"Put the Riv emblem in its place because he didn't know better" ???? Sounds more to me like it may have been hit and the '63 trunk lid was replaced with a '64 trunk. Look up under the trunk lid and see if there's evidence that the holes for the B U I C K letters (at least two for each) have been welded shut; then ask him for the original letters. The '64 Riviera script has unusually shaped "holes" for mounting. They're not round, nor are they square. They're slots, six of them; very exacting in the placement, size, and shape. It would take a master craftsperson to get them all correct. Was the emblem glued on?

Rust never sleeps. If there was some rust a couple of years ago, you can bet there's a lot more now.

I think you should be able to bring the asking price down quite a bit. An appraiser didn't see the rust that you've been told about. Some trim shops will cut a vinyl top larger, and mount the glass over the vinyl hoping to slow down whatever may try to creep through the rust and work its way into the trunk.

Buy with your head, not your heart. Take your wife with you and have her try to talk you out of it. If you can explain to her why it's worth it objectively, not subjectively, it probably is worth it. If your only concession to her is "It's so neat" you'd probably be best leaving it where it sits. Have estimates from your body shop guys as to what it will cost to bring it back to original.

When restoring for yourself rather than as a profession, you never ask yourself "can I get my money back." Just ask the guy who spent over $200,000 restoring the '65 that he got $78,000 for at auction. That's a different post on this forum.

I got your PM and the other info you requested is forthcoming.

Ed

[Zimm63]

The comment about chrome work is no joke. I spent about $1,500 with Tri City four years ago having my bumpers done. Also spent more getting other parts done by Frankford in Philly.

Zimm

[Guest Framer]

Hi Ed,

I'll look for your email on the data you are sending over.

Again, this is invaluable info... it sounds like you may be right about the trunk lid... can't see someone patching the holes where the "BUICK" was... and if that is the case ( in addition to the paint and roof ) this car has too many strikes against it IMHO.

I won't know for sure until I see it in person... but the strikes appear to be adding up. You never know...I might be surprised!

I'm under no dillusion on what the costs would be to bring it back to original. If the car is all there and the body and frame is good... it might be a good candidate to restore.

With all the info you have provided, I will go over it and see what happens.

I'll take my camera and post some pics and a update on what I find.

I have to admit, I really do like these '63's... and if this one doesn't work out I may look for another.

Thanks again,

Chuck

[Jim Cannon]

Chuck-

When you are taking photos, please be sure to take one of the data plate above the power brake booster. Get in close, use a flash, and make sure it is in focus so we can read all the codes. Post here along with other photos. Pictures are worth 1,000 words.

[Guest DLT]

If you are buying this to enjoy, then be prepared to spend some time and money to make it safe and reliable. If you are trying to turn a profit - that's another story and that's not why I'm in the hobby so I can't really contribute to your decision. Not a judgment, just for your knowledge.

A few thoughts (but they may be obvious) about things to inspect before purchase of a early 63-64 Riviera. Carefully pull back the cardboard liner in the trunk and with a strong light, you can see if there is rust in the wells on each side (quarter panel area). The removal of the cardboard may also allow you to see what type or repair was done to the rear. Look up toward were the back window meets the car, typical problem area here.

Get under the car - put in on a rack at a service station or jack it up carefully. Look for rust/holes in the floor or trunk pans, look at the back area again, and bumper area. Check the suspension - up front for rubber, tie rods and if possible check the ball joints (a service station would come in handy here as well). All of these are normal wear items but expensive if you need to do all of that. Also see if the drive shaft has too much wiggle. I have not yet done anything to my drive shaft but it does have a bit of wiggle.

Brakes - check the master cylinder. Is it rusty inside or is the fluid clear. Any leaks at any juncture? Do they pull or not stop the car well. Does the parking brake work and release. Brakes and brake system may have to be replaced regardless but this is not too bad to do yourself. Check everything from the operation and visual inspection including the steel lines since it sat so long I would assume they are corroded and thus not safe to drive. If the line all look shiny maybe he replaced them. There are at a few lines to check - one to the back brakes and along the axle, one for each front wheel - drivers side one in front is short and passenger side one is long running just in front of the engine frame). FYI - When I bought my 63 in 2008 the first thing I did was to tune it, change the oil and change the brakes from the Master Cylinder to the wheel cylinders to the pads... Just to be safe I also converted it to a dual master cylinder. Booster Dewey rebuild the booster mine was working but not perfectly. Last note on brakes parts can be found, most but not all at your local auto parts store.

Check everything electrical. I would be surprised if the clock works currently. But the clock can be repaired from an ROA source - its usually just needs to be oiled correctly and have the electrical contacts cleaned. I over oiled mine and had to go back in to re-clean and oil. Make sure all lights work. Headlights (brights might be able to get a non Guideomatic switch and work them as Ed mentioned), Parking lights on first level of light switch (a 63 will not have the parking lights on when the headlights are on).

Windows - if power to all windows work from all the appropriate switches? If slow but working, they need some attention but not big deal. If they don't work then more dollars. If manual then it's a less optioned model but they still need to work easily.

Dash lights - bulbs can be replaced but if the circuit board is broken you have to remove the dash. A weekend job and the circuit boards have been seen on eBay. Courtesy lights - wiggle the door switch to see if they will all come on if they did not do so when either door was opened. The contact area might be corroded and can be cleaned up to get a better connection or if the the switches, they can be rebuilt by ROA member Paul Metzer for $25 a pair. Glove box light, the switches sometimes break but you can find used ones. Lighters will most likely not work and can be fixed (ROA article). Turn signals, radio, etc. The more of this not working the more room to negotiate. But most all of this can be repaired if you're handy with tools and have a Buick Chassis manual.

Interior - headliner, sun visors, carpet seats, dash and back deck. Condition will determine if you need to spend up to $2,000 to replace all of this. The easiest and cheapest thing to fix is the carpet (Clark's non molded is my recommendation).

Does the vacuum trunk release work?

A/C controls have been addressed but there is a lot to check here. Rubber vac lines are most likely shot after this long. Does the fan work, temp, defrost, heater, front vents, etc. A/C if it has one will it most likely will not work - use your Windows but heat is another issue.

Engine and carb. Best to be able to check a few things when the engine is cold. Open the radiator cap, does it look clogged down in the vent tubes or open and fresh antifreeze? Is the car already warm when you inspect it? If so the choke may need work resulting in a car that's hard to start when cold. Typical choke issue with early Rivs, I just converted mine to a manual choke and have been happy since. Any smoke at start? Any smoke under full throttle (have someone follow you) Any fluid leaks (try to inspect the area where the car is stored to see what's on the floor) Small leaks, use a drip pan. Large ones will need to be addressed. Motor mounts - first put in gear and give it some gas. Do the motor mounts seem to hold or does the engine lift up. Do the same in reverse to check the passenger side. Motor mounts can be found and are not too difficult to replace.

Transmission - if you know a Dynaflow you will have a sense if it's working OK, it's a one speed deal as has been mentioned. Check fluid level and color when running and in park. Should be nice and clear red. Brown indicates at min a fluid change is needed. The more brown, the more concern. The more bight and clear red, the better. I would also (from a stop) put it in L and see how it does. If it clunks when putting in drive or reverse, this may be normal if moderate or indicate a drive-shaft U joint, center link issues. Again this can all be addressed with $s.

It is very easy to spend more than the purchase price even if you do much of the labor yourself. If all the above passes to your satisfaction and you only need to paint, then that's a great deal. However, I doubt that will be the case. If you don't mind some labor and investing a few dollars, it may be a nice car for the money. My '63 is a driver/survivor and a labor of love type of hobby. I over do things mechanically when I approach them as I plan to keep the car for sometime.

Driving inspection - try not to smile too much!

[tim63riv]

Hi Chuck!

I happen to be from the "rust belt" and have an original Minnesota 63, you have gotten some good advice about where to look for rust on a 1st generation Riviera! First of all, I truly admire a guy who does his homework BEFORE the purchase, not after!

The back glass channel at the lower corners has been an issue, with either the weather strip failing or the channel rusting, then the water gets into the trunk. The vinyl roof could be an attempt to cover up this problem area. If the trunk floor is rotted or the rear body mounts are gone, you probably have lost the back glass channel, too.

It is very likely that the deck lid has been replaced with one off of a 64. This is by no means a deal breaker, but begs the question, Why? This is where you need to look at possible collision damage, which again isn't a deal breaker if it was repaired correctly.

Tell your seller that the radiator hoses have to be "cold" when you get there because you want to hear any noises that the engine exhibits cold. I don't worry a whole lot about noises that go away quickly, the more persistant ones get my attention and then start to have dollar signs attached to them!

When you drive the car, make sure the dynaflow engages quickly. It won't shift, but it shouldn't slip either. A good functioning dynaflow will pull very hard when you mash on the gas pedal with the car above 30 mph.

The 401 in my opinion, is one of the best V-8's ever built. It is strong, powerful, gets fantastic fuel economy (in a bad way! LOL!) and has a ton of aftermarket support now. So many new owners want to "overhaul" the engine when a new timing chain and some gaskets will get you another 100,000 miles!

Ed, the ant. is all the way up! Been to the eye doctor lately? LOL!

Chuck, if it is a decent car, buy it, enjoy it and ask away on any issues that might come up!

Take Care,

Tim

[tim63riv]

Chuck,

Couple of other things. Not sure if the economy is as bad in Toronto as it is in the US, but that has made a major impact on the collector car prices down here. Also, winter is never a good time to sell a car, but is usually a good time to buy one!

Lastly, Buick made well over 100,000 Riviera's from 63 to 65, so they aren't exactly rare. As they were an upscale car, many led very pampered lives and were well maintained. Occasionally an original owner car shows up on ebay, in the ROA Riview or the AACA forums, so don't settle for this car if it is not what you are looking for.

Tim

[RivNut]

Tim,

I'll call the optometrist in the morning. The seller did a very nice job of placing the top of the outer shaft at the shadow line on the asphalt.

Chuck,

Forget about my comments about the antenna being at half staff.

Ed :eek: (with new glasses)

[Guest Framer]

Hi Tim,

Thanks for this... It really is amazing how simular the trouble spots are on the first gen Riv as were on my '67 Chevlle SS. In fact they were almost identical!

I'll have some photo's and more info on the car this evening as I am looking at the car later this afternoon.

I'm hopeful that the body, floors, trunk etc are solid enough to consider it... cause if they aren't I'll just keep looking.

Ed, no worries on the vision issues... it happens to the best of us!

Chuck

[Guest Framer]

Guys,

Went to see the '63 this afternoon... and to put it lightly... what a disappointment!

The first thing I see as I walk around to the rear of the car is this:

Yep... the drivers side rear quarter is full of bondo!

Not just a little bit... more like 3/16" and the rear bumper is toast as well.

While the car has the Guidmatic, Delux Interior and Tilt Wheel... no Air

Here is a pic of the Fisher body plate:

Sorry for the shadow... it was late in the day.. and freekin cold out!

Here are some additional pics...

After checking the car out I was invited inside to see other documentation...

The owner shows me an appraisal from 1994. As I read through it it talks about repair work to the trunk and quarters... so I guess the vinyl roof makes sense now as it probably covers up the problems with rot at the rear window.

All things considered... the car is very rough and not at all anything I would be interested in.

Just wanted to thank all of you guys for all the help... I really do appreciate it!

I'll keep an eye out for other '63/64 Riv's and see what surfaces before spring arrives!

Chuck

[tim63riv]

Chuck,

I hope the owner kept the number of the guy who pissed him off with the $500 lower-than-asking offer! If he has owned the car since 1970, he KNEW what was wrong with it before you even came to look at it! Why sellers can't be honest about their cars is beyond me; either they hope you don't know what you are looking at or they are without a clue themselves!

Don't worry, there are a lot of nice Riviera's out there, be patient and you'll get the car you want!

Take Care,

Tim

[RivNut]

Chuck,

I was thinking from the seller's original description that the car had the four note horn option. HA! Little did I think that anyone would try to lead you to believe an "Oogha" horn was an option. Perhaps besides the data on the plate you photographed for him, Jim could use that horn on his Model A.

the original interior was Sandalwood cloth and vinyl. After looking at your pictures it appears that the cloth and a couple of pieces of vinyl have been replaced with a different vinyl; and it was torn to boot.

As Tim said, keep looking, they're out there. If you're not a member of the Riviera Owner's Assn., send in your $30 and get access to the classified ads.

Ed

[lrlforfun]

OK Riviera People: This car is probably a $2000. car. I wonder what made the seller price it at 7K? Was he married to it? Maybe he really didn't know about it's condition. Perhaps a know it all third party gave him some bogus advise.

Well. there are defiantly two things that hold true here. There is no shortage of Rivieras and there is no shortage of people fantasy pricing their Rivieras.

Mitch.

[TexRiv_63]

Chuck,

Sorry it didn't pan out but you made a wise decision to walk away.

[Guest Framer]

OK Riviera People: This car is probably a $2000. car. I wonder what made the seller price it at 7K? Was he married to it? Maybe he really didn't know about it's condition. Perhaps a know it all third party gave him some bogus advise.

Well. there are defiantly two things that hold true here. There is no shortage of Rivieras and there is no shortage of people fantasy pricing their Rivieras.

Mitch.

Hey Mitch,

Well he had another appraisal from 2007 (must have been his first day on the job) that stated the car was worth $7500.00 Canadian... and that's what he is asking.

To be perfectly honest, the seller is a real nice guy.. but he has no knowledge of these cars and is perfectly happy to admit that. The car was owned by his wife's mother since 1970... and it only came into his possession in early 2007 so I doubt he knows the cars history all that well.

I'll call him tomorrow and tell him I'm not interested and that he should try and call the guy he got pissed at to see if he still is!

You know what they say... the car is worth what someone will pay for it! :eek:

Chuck

[RivNut]

I had a friend who was the used car manager for the local Jeep dealer. His saying was "There's an butt for every seat."