Hypothetical Question?

[msmazcol]

I'm just throwing this out there in curiosity for the Judges. You've got a decent looking car on the field. Looks nice and correct except for a minor detail like the chassis is painted a color which is obviously wrong. What would be the appropriate deduction for the color? Is it a major enough deduction to immediately take you out of the running for a Junior award?

Just looking for some views.

Thanks

[MCHinson]

Do you mean that the frame color is wrong, or that every chassis component is the wrong color?

[ex98thdrill]

Mark, it would depend on two things.

1. You'd have to have a judge that knew it was wrong.

2. How much competition is in the class and how good they are (if you get a judge that knows).

If everything is correct but wrong color, I would think you most likely could lose one point per component, but there again it would depend on the judges.

Knowing how you and your dad have a lot of oddball vehicles in your collection (Willys fire truck, Diamond 'T' milk truck, Walters sno-fighter, etc.) because they're so rare, you may be the only one who knows that something is not correct because there's nothing to compare it to.

[msmazcol]

Thanks for the reply Guys.

It's not one of our vehicles Pat. I have a friend that is starting to get the AACA judging bug. He has a nice car that shows well but made a bad choice for color of the complete chassis back when the body was off the car.

I'm just wondering if he would stand a chance to place or if it would be a big enough problem right from the start.

Some deductions have a cap amount. I think this is what I was getting at. If the max deduction for the color would be 10 points the car would still be in the running. If points will be taken for each and every component then he knows what has to go on prior to judging it.

Thanks

[MCHinson]

So, how bad a color choice was it? If it obviously jumps out at you that every component was the wrong color, yes he could possibly be looking at a point per component. What era vehicle is it? How common a vehicle it is also may be a factor. A simple early chassis will not have as many components to lose points on as a later more complex chassis. More information is really needed to be able to try to give you a better answer.

Edited January 21, 2010 by MCHinson (see edit history)

[msmazcol]

Thanks for the follow up. I really don't want to offer all the details so yes, its not going to give you guys a fair chance to answer. I have not looked under the car for awhile. I'll take a better look and we'll go from there.

I'm just trying to groom another member out onto the show field to enjoy the challenge of it.

I also know it can make a guy feel crummy if it really goes bad.

[ex98thdrill]

He has a nice car that shows well but made a bad choice for color of the complete chassis back when the body was off the car.

Without getting into specifics, if the chassis is supposed to be flat black and it is a gloss black, there's no deduction. As I was told by a Team Captain (who at the time was a national director) that "black is black" but if the frame is painted blaze orange, you have a different issue. I highly doubt you'd ever find a '65 Ford Mustang with a subframe painted Neon Green, but of course there is always a chance where someone, somewhere will have the documentation to prove me wrong.

Knowing how you and your father have a collection of commerical trucks, there were instances where the trucking company may have had the truck painted in their colors, but that color wasn't available in the chassis. In the case of fire trucks, there is a fire department near me (Brockport, NY) that has a 20's vintage Seagrave pumper that is painted gray. The truck was painted grey prior to delivery and that fire department to this day is known as "The Grey Ghosts." These guys have had grey trucks for almost 90 years, and still order new trucks painted gray. If I didn't have firsthand knowledge of such a thing and I was judging that 20's vintage Seagrave, I would've most likely made a deduction. Due to the fact that "The Grey Ghosts" exist, if I were judging a fire truck, I wouldn't rule out any color that it is painted.

In the case of both of our fire trucks, we were questioned for having a red frame on the '42 Ford, rather than black. I would've preferred to have had the frame black (would've been cheaper to do and easier to maintain), but the frame was red, so we restored the frame the way that it was when it left American LaFrance. In 1942, Ford did not build a truck the shade of red that our truck was painted, but American LaFrance had 36 shades of red, plus other colors as well, and I've never seen an American LaFrance where they didn't paint their frames red. To be 100% correct, our truck should have overspray on it, but from a cosmetic standpoint, we took the time to restore it where there is no overspray.

[MCHinson]

There is some room for debate if gloss in place of flat black is over restoration or incorrect restoration. In a chassis, which is going to be shaded when you look at it on the field, I doubt many judges would take any deduction.

If I didn't have firsthand knowledge of such a thing and I was judging that 20's vintage Seagrave, I would've most likely made a deduction.

There is an easy way to avoid that type of problem.... have the team captain ask the owner for documentation.... but you really already knew that....

[Steve Moskowitz]

Matt, I sure hope he did not paint it PINK In any case, nothing ventured, nothing gained!

[1937hd45]

Please clairify the era the car is from, Brass era vs later cars would cause a different answer.

[R W Burgess]

.

Knowing how you and your father have a collection of commerical trucks, there were instances where the trucking company may have had the truck painted in their colors, but that color wasn't available in the chassis.

I realize we're probably discussing an automobile here, but may I add a commercial vehicle fact. I started buying upgrade commercial trucks in 1984. I still have one that is show field eligible. This truck, a Peterbilt, could have any color on any part of the truck you wanted, frame, cab, wheels, whatever. You got the money, you get the paint, and color code of your choice.

So, very shortly this issue will have to be addressed on an AACA show field near you.

Wayne

[MCHinson]

Which is why it is REALLY important to convince judges to ask for documentation if they think that something is not correct.

[msmazcol]

I took a closer look at this car today. It does have a few more issues to work out beside chassis color. The owner makes me a bit envious though. He drives it and enjoys it a whole bunch. I'm not sure if he should take that fun out of it trying to make a winner.

It is a decision the owner will have to make.

[MCHinson]

Three Words for him to consider....

Driver Participation Class!

[R W Burgess]

Three Words for him to consider....

Driver Participation Class!

You beat me to it, Matt. You folks need to check out the DPC class at the next AACA meet too. Some of these cars are pretty close to regular class competition.

Wayne

[msmazcol]

That was my suggestion as well. If he really wants to put the effort into the car he can always surrender the DPC and go for it.

Thanks