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Guest BJM

Daily Driving An Old Car

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I just took my 98 Chevy Astro van with 214,000 miles on a quick trip to Florida which was a 2,500 mile trip over Christmas. No problem be cause like other older high mileage drivers I keep meticulous care and records of work done. A couple of years ago we drove it out to Calif towing a trailer and I think it had about 180,000 miles then.

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Ok, peanut gallery taking a step on the soapbox (just preparing to deposit my 2 ¢ anyway). There are several points and counter points being made here and sometimes my anaI retentive nature surfaces while trying to following the bouncing ball in the conversations. In an attempt to take a more rational fact based approach I had to put a spreadsheet together to see the numbers in order to even begin to understand and/or have an opinion. Below are the numbers that I put down, and somewhat simplified at that, it does not show every variation i.e. Purchase vs. Lease nor considers all car variations cheap basic to fully loaded. Both new car examples represent a lease option because most people that I know can not afford to purchase a vehicle today unless it is a used car, so to compare new to an old vintage I chose to show a lease. The two new car pricing were taken right out of our Sunday paper. The vintage is any year/model, but for the sake of argument is a 1966 4 door boat that gets 10 mpg. Car-1 is a 4 cylinder, pretty basic car that the greater portion of the population would not find acceptable, Car-2 is more moderately equipped and has a V6 but the price and mileage reflects it. A comment on mileage, my mileage numbers reflect what I feel is to real world numbers for the two cars, again for the majority of the population, people tend to still drive a bit more aggressively hence I’ve reduced the mpg down a bit. The bottom line is that the numbers show that owning a used vintage car; that requires minimal maintenance, is a cost effective option. A big assumption here is that there will not be any major breakdown/repairs. I could go on with a lot of but this, if that, depending on, comments and still the bottom line is if the person is interested owning a daily driver that is well used, years to decades old, blue/white/pink/black the person will justify it on their own in the end dollars and sense aside. I’ve now stepped down from my soapbox and I’ve now got my flack jacket at my side and ready.

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 790pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=1051 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 62pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2998" width=82><COL style="WIDTH: 53pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2596" width=71><COL style="WIDTH: 36pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 1755" width=48><COL style="WIDTH: 37pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 1792" width=49><COL style="WIDTH: 47pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2267" width=62><COL style="WIDTH: 49pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2377" width=65><COL style="WIDTH: 47pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2267" width=62><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64><COL style="WIDTH: 53pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2596" width=71><COL style="WIDTH: 57pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2779" span=2 width=76><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" span=2 width=64><COL style="WIDTH: 40pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 1938" width=53><COL style="WIDTH: 55pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2669" width=73><COL style="WIDTH: 53pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2596" width=71><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 38.25pt" height=51><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #969696; WIDTH: 62pt; HEIGHT: 38.25pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl24 height=51 width=82></TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 53pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl25 width=71>Original

Purchase

Price

</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 36pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl26 width=48>Years

Driven

</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 37pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl26 width=49>Miles

Driven

P/Year

</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 47pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl26 width=62>Miles

P/Gallon

</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 49pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl26 width=65>Gallons

Required

P/Year

</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 47pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl27 width=62>Cost

P/Gallon

</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl25 width=64>Est.

Gas Cost

P/Year

</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 53pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl25 width=71>Total

Est.

Gas Cost

</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 57pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl26 width=76>Est.

Monthly

Lease Cost

</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 57pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl26 width=76>Total

Est.

Lease Cost

</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl25 width=64>Est.

Ins

P/Year

</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl25 width=64>Total

Est.

Ins Cost

</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 40pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl25 width=53>Est.

Maint

P/Year

</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 55pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl25 width=73>Total

Est.

Maint Cost

</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 53pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl26 width=71>Total

Est. Cost

To Own

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl28 height=17>Vintage Car</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl29 x:num="3700">$3,700.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl30 align=right x:num>3</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl31 align=right x:num="12000">12,000</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl30 align=right x:num>10</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl30 align=right x:num x:fmla="=SUM(D2/E2)">1200</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32 align=right x:num="3.5">$3.50</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32 align=right x:num="4200" x:fmla="=SUM(F2*G2)">$4,200.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl33 align=right x:num="12600" x:fmla="=SUM(H2*C2)">$12,600.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32></TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32 align=right x:num="0" x:fmla="=SUM(J2*(C2*12))">$0.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32 align=right x:num="600">$600.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl33 align=right x:num="1800" x:fmla="=SUM(L2*C2)">$1,800.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32 align=right x:num="400">$400.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl33 align=right x:num="1200" x:fmla="=SUM(N2*C2)">$1,200.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl33 align=right x:num="19300" x:fmla="=SUM(B2+I2+M2+O2)">$19,300.00</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl28 height=17>New Car-1</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl29 x:num="22500">$22,500.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl30 align=right x:num>3</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl31 align=right x:num="12000">12,000</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl30 align=right x:num>20</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl30 align=right x:num x:fmla="=SUM(D3/E3)">600</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32 align=right x:num="3.5">$3.50</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32 align=right x:num="2100" x:fmla="=SUM(F3*G3)">$2,100.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl33 align=right x:num="6300" x:fmla="=SUM(H3*C3)">$6,300.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32 align=right x:num="248">$248.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl33 align=right x:num="8928" x:fmla="=SUM(J3*(C3*12))">$8,928.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32 align=right x:num="1800">$1,800.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl33 align=right x:num="5400" x:fmla="=SUM(L3*C3)">$5,400.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32 align=right x:num="400">$400.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl33 align=right x:num="1200" x:fmla="=SUM(N3*C3)">$1,200.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl33 align=right x:num="21828" x:fmla="=SUM(K3+I3+M3+O3)">$21,828.00</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl28 height=17>New Car-2</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl29 x:num="27695">$27,695.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl30 align=right x:num>3</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl31 align=right x:num="12000">12,000</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl30 align=right x:num>17</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl30 align=right x:num="705.88235294117646" x:fmla="=SUM(D4/E4)">705.8824</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32 align=right x:num="3.5">$3.50</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32 align=right x:num="2470.5882352941176" x:fmla="=SUM(F4*G4)">$2,470.59</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl33 align=right x:num="7411.7647058823532" x:fmla="=SUM(H4*C4)">$7,411.76</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32 align=right x:num="351">$351.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl33 align=right x:num="12636" x:fmla="=SUM(J4*(C4*12))">$12,636.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32 align=right x:num="1800">$1,800.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl33 align=right x:num="5400" x:fmla="=SUM(L4*C4)">$5,400.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl32 align=right x:num="400">$400.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl33 align=right x:num="1200" x:fmla="=SUM(N4*C4)">$1,200.00</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl33 align=right x:num="26647.764705882353" x:fmla="=SUM(K4+I4+M4+O4)">$26,647.76</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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Just a quick question on your chart, I follow the numbers for the vintage car and they add up to 19,300, but for the two new cars, how is the estimated total cost to own less than the original purchase price??

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Just a quick question on your chart, I follow the numbers for the vintage car and they add up to 19,300, but for the two new cars, how is the estimated total cost to own less than the original purchase price??

Larry,

The purchase price reflected on the two new cars are just that, the purchase prices, but the actual costs rolled into the total is the total actual lease cost, shown in the middle of the table. The actual purchase price is not used when leasing, but shows what the lease cost was based on. Hope that that answer's your question?

Scott

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The issue is, and most likely always has been, what are you using the vehicle for. If you drive 70, 80, 90, or 100 miles per day a newer more fuel efficient vehicle makes sense.

As Americans we often confuse practical and realistic with wants and status. We drove a 500 c.i.d. Eldorado to run errands when a Dodge dart would suffice and then blamed the oil companies for our current problems.

Mr. Crosley understood this. To parapharse he said it made no sense to use a battleship to cross the river when a row boat would suffice.

Even though the parent company for my firm is a Chrysler dealer I would not buy a new car or truck. I can not justify the expense.

I currently live 2.5 miles from the office and live in Arizona. As most of this is on secondary streets I ride a bicycle three or four days per week. I could easily make a Model A or T practical transportation.

As a kid when I landed my first real job a new truck was high on my list. After facing layoffs and truck payments I learned a valuable lesson.

Our current stable consists of a 1998 Cherokee and a 1968 Dodge Adventurer. The truck is horrible in regards to gas mileage so I dirive it once a week and when something needs to be hauled.

I purchased the Jeep from the second owner with 103,000 miles on the odo this past spring for $3,000. Plates set me back $80 for two years. Insurance is $250 per year.

To date we have logged just over 5,000 miles with the only repair costs being two tires, oil changes, belts, and hoses. Suffice to say I find it much more practical to drive older vehicles.

When it comes to vehicles lets just say we are frugal, that sounds better than cheap. The Jeep was a replacement for our 1988 Ford s/w purchased 8 years ago for $2,500 and my wife's car, a 1973 Olds purchased 17 years ago for $350!

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I buy my daily drivers new and put high mileage on them. I buy high quality vehicles and maintain them well. I benefit from new technology, parts availability and the safety of shoulder harness' , ABS, traction control and air bags.

My newest DD is an ML-320 that currently has 160,000 miles on it. My cost of ownership is about even with a used car yet I got to enjoy it as a new vehicle.

I'm sure this isn't the solution for all people, but it works for me.

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Rhetorical forum questions can be good and bad, they open up a platform for the members to bow into or observe from the sidelines. They can become the great debate, often surfacing great pro/con emotions in the process. I like them and hate them all at the same time. In this case I too have stated an opinion. But my opinion is not global nor is it final. But my views of the facts are simple, in my own eyes.

No one persons experience(s) in purchasing, driving, selling are the same. Some are better at it then others and some have the luck to fall into opportunities others do not. Purchase prices can be low, maintenance can be low, it becomes a great deal for them. Their skill set also plays a factor, some have no idea how to lift a wrench, others can repair any item of a car, the cost to own differs, and hence the experience differs.

The question at hand, in my opinion, is not about making sense but to express a desire to drive a “vintage” car but to try to rationalizing it. There are very few “vintage” daily drivers in the context to the original question on the road today to argue the positive/negative cost impacts, and to spin a safety angle is only that. There will always be safety risks whenever you attempt to compare old/new technology, but it’s not the question. I’ve survived my years growing up in the 60’s, driving with drum brakes all around and bias ply tires. If you understand what the car could do and not do everything was good. Bottom line, it is not a cost justification question but a personal passionate question and for me as much as I would love to drive a “vintage” car daily again, I choose not to.

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In the for what its worth category:

Haven't bought a "new" car since 1979 (let someone else take the depreciation!).

Others in immediate and extended family have purchased new vehicles. It has been my experience over the last 30 years that THE NEWER THE CAR THE MORE FREQUENT AND MORE EXPENSIVE ARE THE BREAKDOWNS!

There is so much electrical garbage on the newer cars which can (and does) fail. I live in the midwest where we experience winter (cold temperatures, salt, and cinders) and summer (100 plus degrees, and the humidity is why the nickname is Misery). Perhaps if I lived in a more moderate climate, the newer cars would be more reliable.

As to fuel economy, my shop truck (modified, yes) with 450 HP engine obtains 22 MPG at 70 MPH and about 15 MPG around town. Those I know with new pickups (unless diesel, to which I have a legitimate allergy) don't do better.

Insurance is liability only.

Oh, and the last time the temperature hit -15 here, my shop truck was the only thing in our neighborhood that would start. We jump started several vehicles (free) for the neighbors.

And no, the air conditioning probably doesn't work so well as the newer vehicles. Creature comforts (as long as they work) are much better on the newer vehicles.

And I have done the math MANY times. For me, MUCH less expensive to drive older vehicles. But I do drive older vehicles with manual transmissions.

Not saying my experience would be the same for anyone else. But it certainly could be.

Jon.

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Bob,

I respect Dave's opinion and he frequently defends the Prius and the need to reduce gas consumption in modern autos. I get that. I think America went way wrong encouraging the SUV and big truck culture. I could go on but don't want that to be a focus of this thread.

Now, you commute 70 miles one way? In that case, I could NOT drive an older car without a car payment. Gas would eat me up.

BUT there are a ton of cool smaller cars I would consider using as a DD. One I am buying is a 280Z Datsun.

When restored it will be in the rotation, maybe driven once per week. Volvo, yes Volvo - made a cool sprts car called a P1800 with a 4 cylinder. And they go 300,000 miles with maintenance.

It's hard to find an American car in that class I guess. .

Just for the record I am not critiicizing anyone who drives a Prius. I am all for a person driving what he/she likes but tha t sn't for me and doesn't seem to be for you. That was the only point I was making.

No I commute 70 miles ROUND TRIP - 35 each way - and love doing it in an old car. For example, today I drove in my 73 Super Beetle, yesterday was a 91 VW Cabriolet and tomorrow I will probably drive my 72 Beetle. Other days I drive my 75 BMW 2002. Everyone of those cars gets at least 24 MPG. No, they are not the fastest or most modern and yes they have quirks since the newest one is 19 years old but I love them. Now I could drive one of my newer ones but in the end this is cheaper and way more fun. My 2007 Mercedes gets around 21 MPG and burns premium fuel and my 2006 Dodge truck gets 15 MPG (on a good day). So not only am I saving money by driving an odler car, I enjoy it much better. Yes I have to remember to use my arms to roll down a window verses pushing a button, no, I don't have a fancy key fob to lock my doors, I have no heated or power seats, and yes there are some rattles from time to time BUT I still love it. Folks I work with think I am crazy for driving an old car each day but they don't understand that I ahve turned a otherwise boring drive into work into a fun trip.

BTW, I restored a Datsun 240Z a couple of years ago. I did more of a restro-mod on it instead of going back original. I put power leather seats from an Infiniti I30 in it, had a great sound system, cold AC and great heat, remote locks, etc. and I drove it everyday for a coupe of years. I loved it but sold it oafter buying my 75 BMW. It didn't get the best MPG though - only around 22 but still better than my new car at the time.

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OK Dave - from the Honda website for a 2010 Honda Civic Si ---> 21 City/29 Highway mpg. Combined = 25mpg.

You forgot to mention that the Si needs premium. Of course the Olds probably does as well.

However if you're truly curious as to real fuel costs over set individual mileage and conditions (price, highway/city mix), you should use the calculator and comparison functions on the DOE's fueleconomy.gov's Side-by-Side Comparison page. It also lists the tons of CO2 produced by one's automotive choice, and the barrels of oil needed to keep the car running. In a new twist this year they've split the barrels of oil into domestic and imported, which shows how much of your money is leaving the country.

They also list documented real world mileage from multiple owners for each vehicle (which are actually much higher than the EPA estimate for this high-performance model and the more plebeian Civic and Hybrid Civic models). Unfortunately the site only goes back to 1984, so if you want to plug in your assumptions for an older car you'll have to find one with similar mileage figures.

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As a dealer I would love for everyone to go out and buy a collector car as their daily driver. But, honestly, I have to recommend against it. Especially those folks in cold weather states. In my past I have used some of my collector cars as daily drivers with no adverse issues, a 57 Ford Station wagon, a 64 Nova station wagon and a 64 Olds 98 4dr served me well, But honestly, I was living in California at the time.

Maybe I am getting old or it is Ohio weather but I have two modern cars a 2001 SAAB convertible and a 2007 Subaru Outback which get me everyplace I need to go, SAAB gets 30 mph and the Subaru 27 highway. and they both have A/c, and yummy heated seats.

My friends thing because we have such a nice selection of classics I would show up in one most of the time and they are disappointed when I show up in something more mundaine. But I like getting there and returning.

I do not think your 2004 is on the verge of being undependable due to age, that is silly.

But on the other side of the coin there are some fantastic deals out there on new cars these days too. Good luck on your decision.

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You forgot to mention that the Si needs premium. Of course the Olds probably does as well.

However if you're truly curious as to real fuel costs over set individual mileage and conditions (price, highway/city mix), you should use the calculator and comparison functions on the DOE's fueleconomy.gov's Side-by-Side Comparison page. It also lists the tons of CO2 produced by one's automotive choice, and the barrels of oil needed to keep the car running. In a new twist this year they've split the barrels of oil into domestic and imported, which shows how much of your money is leaving the country.

They also list documented real world mileage from multiple owners for each vehicle (which are actually much higher than the EPA estimate for this high-performance model and the more plebeian Civic and Hybrid Civic models). Unfortunately the site only goes back to 1984, so if you want to plug in your assumptions for an older car you'll have to find one with similar mileage figures.

When I had my 1979 Lincoln as a daily driver, it used premium and cost me about $250 a month for gas. Insurance was $400 per year for liability only.

A new car payment is $350 to $500 per month. You have to have full coverage with a car payment so insurance would be about $2000 per year.

Calculating zero dollars for gas and repairs for the new car (which even a new Prius will require), that is a savings of $2800 to $4600 per year which can be used for repairs and misc. on an old car. My Lincoln usually required 2-3 repairs per year at $300-$600 each. That is still only $900 - $1800 per year for repairs. People kept tell me to get rid of that gas guzzling dinosaur and get a new car so I could save money. A new car would cost me thousands more per year so I could save hundreds on gas. No one could understand that. Plus I got to drive something cool, not an ugly little econobox. Plus it didn't depreciate like a new car. Absolutely the only reason I stopped using it as a daily driver was because the salt was killing it.

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About 20 years ago I picked up a decent yellow Triumph TR3A, a 1961 if I remember correctly. On decent days I would drive it to work in downtown Newark, NJ - probably not the most risk-free thing I could have done. And only during daylight saving time! Once the clock shifted and I was going home through Newark after dark, no way I was going to drive a totally open car.

The first time I ever drove it in was a below-30 morning in April. Top down of course. I got into downtown just as the ladies of the evening were going home from long hours on the night shift. The comments I got! "Is that a Porsche?" "Ain't you cold in that car?" "Would you like me to warm you up?" Priceless!

A couple of times the Prince of Darkness (Mr. Lucas) caused me grief, but not often. My only real concern was going down the Interstate in the rush hour, doing 70 mph, right next to an 18-wheeler whose hub caps were directly even with my line of sight. I remember thinking there was only about 1/16 inch of aging British tin between me and total oblivion. I was younger and stupider then; I used to attempt distance flights in soaring gliders in those days, too.

Would I do it now, if I weren't retired? Not on the Interstate in the rush hour, and not to downtown Newark. But if there were less-traveled roads to somewhere more benign - yeah, I think I would!

Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ

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actual average mileage of my prius is 43mpg. 72000miles on a 2007. $22000 new. no maintance costs so far... just engine oil changes and a set of tires.

 

update. the 2007 prius was a total loss in 2012. had 105000 miles on it. still no maintance cost other than tires and oil. still 43mpg average. collision with an old fart that pulled out from a stop sign right in front of my wife.  his insurance paid us $15000. so besides tires, oil, insurance and registration it cost $7000 to drive over 105000 miles. not bad. 

Edited by mrspeedyt (see edit history)

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"Do it! I buy the old cars and drive them everyday! "

Might be a little easier to do this in "sunny California"...

We have a lot more weather-related issues east of the Rockies...

Road salt & brine treatments eat-up a car REALLY quickly.

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actual average mileage of my prius is 43mpg. 72000miles on a 2007. $22000 new. no maintance costs so far... just engine oil changes and a set of tires.

I have exactly the same # of miles on my 2005 Prius. I just bought my 3rd set of tires (@ 70,000 mi.), otherwise my experience (including gas mileage) has been the same.:)

I suppose in a perfect world where old cars last forever and don't break down I could have had the same service for overall less money than the Prius, and in the real world (for less $ than the Prius) I could've put up with a tow truck or 4 in the mean time and still had financial room for the repair costs. However that amount of money cannot buy the peace of mind that saving tons of CO2 per year for the same service provides.:cool:

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Just replaced the Y pipe on the '85 Ford LTD the wife drives daily. Not a bad wreck for $500.00. May show it at Hershey, saves walking time.

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Am somewhat opinionated, always bought new cars for the family but about 2/3 of the time my personal ones were more "experienced".

Since the '70s, cars have become lighter and more efficient but more importantly dramatically more comfortable to drive. For one thing before 1980ish, reclining seats particularly on the driver's side were a rarity. I know, parents did not allow daughters in "Airliner seats" in Nashes of the 50s but that was an exception.

In the late 80's it did get a bit absurd, the "16-ways" in Reattae was more marketting than reality but do have a very wide variety of positions available.

Also we were into the '70s before disk brakes became standard on things other than station wagons and the tires were so bad (got about 8,000 miles from a set of Wide Ovals on my Camaro) that the drums were mostly adequate. Again until 1984, standard (4 wheel disks on a 78 Trans Am were an option) four wheel disks were a province of Corvettes. Of course there was nothing wrong with disk/drum on a street car and the e-brake wa much simpler to accomplish.

But the bottom line is that the tires/brakes of the 80's were dramatically superior to anything standard in the '60s ("unsafe even in the driveway").

Engines: I had my first fuel injection in 1970 and never wanted a "poorly controled leak" since. Even the TBI which was something of the worst of both worlds was more efficient. I can still just about disassemble/reassembe a QJ blindfolded but have no desire to do so, FI is just that much smoother.

I remember Jaguars being great cars to prevent drunk driving, if you had too much to drink it would not start. (was infected by 3.8 6s at an early age, prolly why I like 3800s so much), also remember periodic infusions of Champion N-5 plugs.

Today, if I get in and it does not start on the first half rev even after sittiing for a month, something is wrong.

My usual personal driver this century stopped being a teen before I bought it. Of couse in reality my DD has been whatever Avis had waiting. Not saying new cars are not improved, aluminum blocks and VVT are both Good Things.

OTOH that is not enough for me to give up my 3800s (and a 2.8). Maybe it is just that to me, the present herd is "Good Enough" even though clustered from 1986 to 1992 but I have to say that few cars of the 60s and 70s can say the same (and have one of them also)

And the clincher: I sold a very nice 1966 Corvair Monza 'vert for enough to pay for both a 1986 Fiero GT and a 1990 Reatta 'vert, both running, presentable, with cold a/c, and both like 87 PON. Just a matter of following the curve.

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Again until 1984, standard (4 wheel disks on a 78 Trans Am were an option) four wheel disks were a province of Corvettes. Of course there was nothing wrong with disk/drum on a street car and the e-brake wa much simpler to accomplish.

But the bottom line is that the tires/brakes of the 80's were dramatically superior to anything standard in the '60s ("unsafe even in the driveway").

My 1976 Mark IV has 4 wheel disk brakes with antilock. So did my 1978 and 1979.

I will be headed to the Chicago Auto Show next week. Just looked at the previews, and other than the Camaro and Challenger, both of which are old news by now, I do not see anything of interest.

To me the question is not whether to use an older car for daily driving, but why would anyone buy a new one when they all look the same and are about as exciting as a toaster, and cost $30,000 - $40,000 for anything that is not a bottom of the line econobox.

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Just curious, How long does a battery pack in a Prius last? How much does the pack of batteries cost? Can they be installed by a average mechanic, or say a retired mechanic at home? Does the Prius have to be smog checked like any other car? Does the Prius need regular (100,000 mile like most new cars) tune ups, and regular oil changes? What will the cost be in maintaining two propulsion systems should something go wrong?

Could the Prius beat the cost of my 1965 Standard European Type 111 VW that gets 41mpg at 100kph and 38 mpg average (city/hwy) on 5% ethanol laced regular fuel ?

Don

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Just curious, How long does a battery pack in a Prius last? How much does the pack of batteries cost? Can they be installed by a average mechanic, or say a retired mechanic at home?

Rumor on the net is that the traction batteries last as long as an automatic transmission in a "normal" car, that is the life of the vehicle if properly maintained. My wife's 2001 Prius is still running strong on its original traction batteries. However I developed a bad cell in the battery pack of our 2004 Prius at about 60,000 miles. I don't know the cost of replacement as it was replaced for free (parts and labor), my "cost" was being without the car for a couples of days while they got the new pack in from where ever. I'd be careful doing it myself as high voltage DC with substantial current capability could be a recipe for electrocution or, at the least, inadvertently welding something.

Does the Prius have to be smog checked like any other car?

We've never been required to get a smog check for either Prius even though we've had the 2001 since fall of 2000 and the 2004 since the fall of 2003. But that is for California, your location may be different.

Does the Prius need regular (100,000 mile like most new cars) tune ups, and regular oil changes? What will the cost be in maintaining two propulsion systems should something go wrong?

There is a normal service interval for the Prius, every 5,000 miles. Covers things like oil change, rotate tires, etc. "Tune up" is not required at every 5,000 interval but does happen from time to time. All the "normal" things that any internal combustion car needs.

Could the Prius beat the cost of my 1965 Standard European Type 111 VW that gets 41mpg at 100kph and 38 mpg average (city/hwy) on 5% ethanol laced regular fuel ?

Don

I don't have cost numbers in my head. I guess I could fire up Quicken and get reports for both cars as to total cost and do a $/mi calculation. I do have all the numbers (pretty compulsive in some regards). For either you old VW or my Prius the fuel cost is probably not the big ticket item. Depreciation, insurance, registration, repairs, etc. are probably higher than fuel usage. Your older car probably has much lower depreciation, insurance and registration costs per year than the Prius, so I'd guess that unless your repair bill is very high it would be a cheaper car to run than the Prius.

I find that the dash MPG computer is usually, but not always optimistic. Also, my generation Prius has a bladder for a fuel tank and does not consistently fill up the same from one "tank" to the next. So the only number that I think makes much sense is total miles divided by total gallons so that the tank to tank filling variation is averaged out. I have also tracked all gasoline purchases and my "real world" gas miles is just a bit over 45 MPG. Your mileage will (not may, but will) vary based on your driving conditions.

My "daily driver" is not the Prius but is a 1990s vintage REI Novarra 18 speed bicycle. My guess is that my cost per mile on that is lower than your VW. :)

Edited by ply33 (see edit history)

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In 1999 we got a new toyota tacoma standard cab pickup for the wife to drive and then a 2007 prius... because I was gone from home so much and was tired of constantly repairing the family car on my time off. My wife doesn't care to "put up" with the hassle of a older high mileage vehicle anyway. At least I haven't spent a ton of money for everyday transportation as the 1999 has averaged 23mpg for the 220,000 miles and 43 mpg for 72,000 miles on the prius with hardly any matainance expense on either one. BUT, now that has changed... the tacoma has a burnt valve...(i think). The check engine came on and a compression test shows 65psi in #1. Do I want to put any time and money in a newer vehicle when I should (and prefer) putting the effort in an oldie. In theory i've got time now since I retired. The '73 suburban could use valve guide seals, the '62 mercedes' trans needs work, the cadillacs, buicks, chevys, willys, pontiac, fords, de sotos all need LOTS of attention too...:rolleyes: and I forgot the la salle....

note to de soto frank ...my de sotos are '41 sedans and a '54 sedan 6cyl.:)

Edited by mrspeedyt
I forget sometimes... (see edit history)

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Until I got married, I never drove anything newer than 1964. Now, my wife drives a 97 Dodge intrepid, I still drive a 53 kaiser, or one of my Studebakers as a every day car. I thought it was funny she ( your sister ) considers a 2004 old, haha, I have never had anything newer than 97, haha. money wise, a new car cost more than an old car. well, ok, maybe that cool 1937 Packard V12 is more but... haha

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A lot depends on where you are. For 100 days (give or take a few) each year, a/c is a necessity if you need to go somewhere respectible "after 90".

All of my vehicles with more than two wheels have working a/c, one dual, one triple.

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