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63-65 Riv Disc Brake conversions


Guest lynyrd

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Hello, I have had no luck on getting real solid info on disc conversion kits for most important 63-64, I was told 65 may be different. Any and all info would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

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Guest Gee_Rydes

Hey Lynyrd,

I am under the impression that only the spindles may be different on the 63'. I have some real good photos of my 65 front spindles off the car at my Facebook page for my Riv build. The link is in my signature.

Maybe those pictures will help you compare to what you have and identify the differences?

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According to the guys who make the brackets at www.scarebird.com , the 65 takes a different bracket than the 63 and 64. I just bought a set of brackets for my '64 but don't have a '65 set to compare them with.

In my opinion, the best people to ask would be the people who make them. If there is a difference, they would be the ones who can tell you what the difference is.

If you're buying new, order what the mfg. says. If you're buying something off Craigslist, call the mfg. and ask for an explanation.

Ed

Edited by RivNut
spell check (see edit history)
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I think all of the first generation Riv's have the same spindles, its the wheel hubs that are different. By looking at the pictures on Gee_Rydes' page, those appear the same as my '64 spindles and my spare set of "1st Generation" Riv spindles from Wheatbelt. The 63-64 use a large hub register while the 65 uses the more standard smaller hub bore diameter.

However from all the documentation that RivNut and I have seen the spindles interchange so you could use the later spindles on the earlier cars with the correct steering arms. This is what I'm using to swap on a set of later spindles which use a symetic "double sided" bolt pattern so that the caliper bracket doesn't have to go behind the steering arm.

Minor Hyjack; Gee_Rydes, did you ever mate the stock pedal pad with the Lokar pedal assembly? I have gone cable throttle and my current setup is rather crude but I don't like the look of that pedal for my largely traditional interior.

Thanks,

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Although I haven't seen it for a few years, when Scarebird first started producing the bracket for the Riviera, there used to be a video of a rod shop istalling the bracket on an early Buick. They mentioned that there was some kind of clearance problem with a nut on the '65 and later Buicks and that's why there are two kits. Don't know if the video is still around anywhere, but I'll try to locate it.

Why take a chance, order the one you need, or like the previous post states, find the spindles off a '70 Riv with disc brakes and swap everything.

Ed

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Maybe it is just me, but I have found that when the original drum brakes are in good working order (adjusted and with the correct lining material), they brake as good or sometimes better than than original style GM disc brakes found on later models. If the conversions talked about here are about oversize after-market or custom 4-wheel disc conversions I cannot comment on those, --- but,--- I have owned my '64 since 1981 when I was 16 and back then I drove like most sixteen year olds do - fast acceleration and hard braking. I always had my Riv up to 100+ mph on I-95 between Alexandria, VA and Washington D.C. on a Friday night. My brother had a '70 Cutlass with 4-wheel drum brakes and those brakes would moan and fade badly when trying to stop from high speeds. When I turned 18, I had a '69 Cadillac convertible that had front disc brakes. I still had the Riv and would compare both cars. The Cad did not brake as well as the Riv. The Cad is a heavier car but should have braked as well as the Riv since it had discs, I thought. I am not doubting the advantages of disc over drum brakes. Discs are better overall. However, I have been told by automotive mentors of mine that back in the day, Buick was known for big and good brakes compared to other makes and GM divisions. Our first generation Rivieras (and I think second too) had big finned alluminum drums to dissipate the heat much better than cast-iron drums. I have never had a problem with mine or see the need to convert. On every brake job that I have done over the years, I have used quality parts and adjusted the brakes properly. Today, asbestos is not available for brake linings over the counter. I think this is part of the problem with many people thinking that drum brakes are no good. The aftermarket linings are junk and will give you a hard pedal because you have to put extra pedal effort to stop the car. If you take your linings to a brake rebuilder/relining shop (trucks, etc.) they can put the "good stuff" on your old shoes and your Riv drums will stop very well as designed. Also, make sure your front suspension is tight and aligned. This is a major culprit of pulling to one side when braking and is often blamed on drum brakes.

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I totally agree with Paul on the effectiveness of the Aluminum brake drums that came on the early Buicks. I'm adding disk brakes to my '64 for two reasons, neither of which has to do with the efficiency of the brakes.

1)

  • Drums that still have enough steel lining in them to meet specs are getting harder to find (my '63 has 197K on the original drums and they can't be turned)
  • the drums on my '64 have only about 60K on them
  • I want them for the restoration of my '63 (I'm aware of the left v. right hand threads)

2)

  • The '64 is being built as a mild custom
  • It will have 18" wheels on it
  • IMHO, discs look more modern behind open spoke wheels

That said, if there's no real reason to switch to discs, stay with the drums. They've been proven over and over again. I'll match the drum set up on my '64 to any other non-high performance disc set up being sold as OE today.

Now for the $64,000 question. Has anyone come up with a way of putting new steel liners in the aluminum drums?

Ed

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Gee_Rydes

Hijack reply-

CTX,

Just got back in town

Yeah, the Lokar deal is going to work out nicely. A little mod on the floor is required to get full articulation of the pedal, but she will work out very well. I think I will fab up a replacement "pedal" base rather than using the Lokar pedal. Basically I will be adhering the stock pedal right on top of the pedal they supply in that kit to maintain a nice stock pedal appearance.

I agree that the stock drums are really cool and effective. I will be running a power MC setup from a later 60's drummed full-size to get a dual reservoir.

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  • 2 years later...

Now for the $64,000 question. Has anyone come up with a way of putting new steel liners in the aluminum drums?

Ed

Holy thread revival Batman. Just thought I'd post this for you Ed in case you didn't hear of these folks relining the Al-Fin Drums.

J&G Relining | Home

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Thanks Robin,

I'd forgotten about this thread. Since it was originally started, I did find out that the J&G company was relining drums; they're now advertising in the Riview.

I wonder what lynrd did about his disk brake conversion. So many threads get started, advice is given, but lots of times the guy who starts it never tells anyone if any of the advice given was any help.

Ed

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I just put the Scarebird disc brake conversion on my 61 LeSabre. The installation went pretty easy, and the car now stops on a dime.

All the parts and part numbers were listed out including vendors where they can be purchased from, and it was a breeze ordering the pieces to make this work.

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Yup-an older thread and I can still agree with the comments of Paul K. I have mostly been a 'flat land' resident and have never had braking issues. When we lived in Colorado, some smarts requires engine braking in mountains or you'll find yourself with high heat/shorter service life in most any braking system. The wide and large 12" Buick brakes were way more than my Pontiac world and about anything I saw or drove 'back then' and I think they're still just fine-

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  • 2 months later...
Guest JouniK

I was flipping through some old magazines and found an article in Super Rod magazine (oct 2003) about 1964 Riviera (chopped, corvette small block). They had used S10 spindles and discs in the conversion :eek:. Any one has any info on that?

J

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We used to make disc brake kits for Buicks. 63-65 Riviera Disc Brakes

The spindles are the same for all 1st gen Rivs. What's different is the offset inside the hubs in a 65 Riv. (where the bearings sit) This should only be an issue if your conversion kit requires the use of the old hubs. If new hubs are supplied there should be no issue between years.

I'm working on an economical and simple kit for my own 65 Riv at the moment and happy to pass on the results when we have it finished.

From personal experience, no matter how good the old drums are they're not a patch on a good, modern disc brake system. I have converted my 66 Wildcat to 12" rotors with 2004 Pontiac GTO calipers. (VT Commodore calipers downunder) You can't beat the way they stop.

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I'm similarly working on a stop gap disc setup for mine using 71-76 B-body/73-87 C-10 rotors which share the same wheel bearings and bolt pattern with the 63-64 Riviera. The stock steelies won't clear the 98-02 F-body calipers though so I resorted to Astro Van steelies (15x6.5) which are 0.25in deeper in backspacing since my "metric" 225/75R15's rub on the frame I'm getting a pair of 3/8in spacers to ensure they clear in the front. I've not double checked but it looks like stock wheel covers will fit as well.

Eventually I will be doing that swap with 13+ inch discs and 4piston Nissan R32 Skyline calipers but the wheels and tires needed for that are too big of a budget draw at the moment.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Guest duck2

After repeated trips to the parts stores, ...measuring hubs. I found that the 71-76 "B" body rotors work on the 69 riv spindles I used for my disc conversion on my 65 riv. So I ditched the 2 piece rotor and hub assembly for them.

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Guest JouniK
After repeated trips to the parts stores, ...measuring hubs. I found that the 71-76 "B" body rotors work on the 69 riv spindles I used for my disc conversion on my 65 riv. So I ditched the 2 piece rotor and hub assembly for them.

Hey Duck, have you tested this conversion yet? I was wondering if the newer spindels have the same geometry?

I had a 59 Dodge with 78 New Yorker spindles and disc brakes. It was almost a bolt-on job, but it messed the geometry of the front end a little..

J

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Guest duck2

the height of the spindles were the same. So Camber was the same. As far as caster or to in or toe out I'm not sure because that may have been coorected with the change of tie rods and alignment

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  • 3 years later...

Hi guys, It's only taken 3 years but finally RRS completed the disc brake kit and we fitted it last week on my 65. They work fantastic and not even bedding in yet. There's no need to change the booster either! Unlike many others around this uses powerful billet 4 spot calipers and approx 12" rotors with 5 on 5 stud pattern for full-size Buicks. Basically this is not your average disc brake conversion kit.

After-market wheels 16” dia or larger will fit. My 65 has 16x7” American Racing.

Later model 15” wheels (post 1971) with the stepped rear profile and 2" hole will fit with the addition of a 9/16” (14mm) wheel spacer and longer studs.

*Standard steel rims or early rallye wheels with the tapered rear profile will not fit. Sorry, we tried hard but the calipers are just too big.

 

 

I will be taking orders for this kit in a week or so and there will be discounts available for ROA members.

Kit includes:

  • New Rotors with Buick 5 on 5" circle stud pattern, bearings and seals
  • All mounting hardware (brackets with high tensile bolts)
  • Braided SS lines and mounting hardware (pair)
  • RRS Cobra Billet Calipers custom-made for Buick (pair)

 

Buick1main.jpg

 

I look forward to your questions and can supply more details, pictures and pricing at your request.

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Did you try the 67-70 Disc wheels that are profiled for the factory iron 4 piston calipers?  I got a set of those to fit over 12in rotors with R32 Skyline 4 piston calipers with a 1/8in spacer (or you could light grind the calipers which I'm not willing to do).

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Some time ago over on the Team Buick site, I came across a thread on installing the larger front aluminum drums on the rear axle.  It involved removal of a lip on the drum and use of mid 50's rear backing plates to allow use of the wider shoes and drums.  I haven't been able to find it recently.  I think that Tom Telesco has some knowledge about this swap.

 

Ed

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Glad you chimed in Ed. I prefer to keep things simple plus we don't have a lot of donor cars downunder.

The rear disc brake kit will have a built-in drum brake for the emergency brake and the existing cable will attach. 15" rims won't be an issue either because the twin-spot billet caliper is a smaller.

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  • 8 months later...

I have done Disc brake conversions on my 57 Olds. and my 64 Riviera.

Used Scarebird on both. No problem, brakes work great.

Also changed to duel master cyl, and booster.

See list of parts used for the 64 Rivera brake conversion below from Scarebird.

 

Rocket 88

 

 

 

 

Read instructions thoroughly twice.

  1. Crack front wheel nuts loose, chock up rear wheels.  Jack up front end of car, support crossmember with jackstands.  Remove front wheels and drum/hub assembly.
  2. Disconnect brake flexible line at frame by spraying with penetrant oil, then unscrewing hardline nut with flare wrench, then removing clip.  Undo lower drum backing plate nuts, and remove drum bolts.  Remove drum backing plate and all drum hardware in one assembly.  Clean off spindle assembly
  3. Slip adapter plate down over spindle with caliper opening to the rear and machined pocket engaging spindle boss. Bracket will fit between spindle and steering arm.
  4. Insert supplied top bolt and lock washer loosely, then reinsert lower bolts. Now torque upper bolt to 90 ft-lbs. and then torque lowers to 75 ft-lbs.
  5. (1961-64 only) Drive out 14mm x 1.5 studs out of rotors, and press in Moser 8368 (1.75”) or 8250 (1.938”) or equivalent studs.  NAPA also has 641-3204 (1-5/8”) or 641-1112 (1-15/16” use with ¼” wheel spacer only unless you chase the threads further down the stud).  I usually lube up the splines and threads with anti-seize, then press (do not hammer) studs into place.  Check to make sure studs are straight and fit inside wheel.  1965 Riviera will not need to change studs.
  6. Clean and repack wheel bearings.  Insert inner bearing into rotor, and install new seal.  Assemble rotor onto spindle, along with bearing and washer, then tighten outer nut to spec, then secure with keeper, new cotter pin and new dustcap.
  7. Wipe down rotor with alcohol, lacquer thinner or other cleaner to remove grease and oils.
  8. Wash hands! Rotor must be squeaky clean
  9. Test fit hoses on calipers.  Note how hose kicks in towards caliper to clear sway bar.  You may need to take an angle grinder to “flatten” the caliper where circled for clearance.  Make sure clearance is visible – if it hangs up the hose will leak.  Do not grind into sealing surface – be cautious and patient.  Carefully remove rubber sleeve on hoses with knife.  Hose should run straight down from caliper
  10. Install loaded caliper with bleed screw facing up, and lube contact areas with silicone grease then screw in slide bolts, tighten to 35 foot-pounds. (1961-64 only) Note the third picture – the outer pads will contact the rotor slightly – a moment with a bench grinder will radius it enough to clear. (1965 Riviera should clear fine).  We recommend using the softest pads you can find for street use, like NAPA’s TruStop organic.  Pads are the same application as calipers.  Check fitment and rotate rotor to check clearance.
  11. Hoses should run down from caliper as shown in first illustration, then up to hardline, forming a “J”.  Install new hoses with copper crush washers then reconnect to hard line.  Some hardlines may have a 7/16” nut – if so, you will need to use NAPA #7828 adapter, or cut off flare, insert 3/8” nut then reflare. Master cylinder and proportioning valve specs are quite varied.  I would recommend 1971-76 Riviera or similar disc master cylinder for best performance match available in both power and manual flavors.  Some have used the existing single chamber master cylinder with success.  If rear brakes lock up excessively, plumb in an adj. prop. valve in the line going to the rear.
  12. Bench bleed disc master cylinder, mount on car.  Gravity bleed first, then pressure/pump bleed entire system and test.  You will need to reset the toe-in. Count number of threads per inch at the tie rod sleeve.  Divide by 8.  This is the number of turns your sleeve needs to be spun to shorten the distance to make up for the thickness of the bracket.
  13. Replace wheels, torque wheel nuts, lower car and carefully test.  We use the 30-30-30 method to break in pads: 30 easy stops from 30mph with 30 seconds cooling between stops.  Then let cool ½ hour.

 

 

      

Part                            Application                           NAPA             Wagner         Raybestos               

Rotor (1961-64)       1995-99 GM ½ ton 2WD front       86258             BD125206     56258

Rotor (65 Riviera)   1971-76 Riviera front                     85537             BD60258       5006

Caliper, LH                1971-76 Cadillac Deville front     SE4631          CR83264       FRC4080

Caliper, RH               1971-76 Cadillac Deville front     SE4630          CR83265       FRC4079

Hydraulic hose       1977 Riviera front                           36797             F97664          BH36797

Inner Bearing          1971-76 Riviera                               BR5                BCA A5         SKF CBR5

Outer Bearing          1971-76 Riviera                               BR3                BCA A3         SKF CBR3

Wheel Seal               1977 Riviera front                           19753                  BCA Part # 8871

Dust Cap                  1971-76 Riviera                               BK7302438        Dorman 13977

Banjo Bolt                1971-76 Riviera                               82698             Dorman # 4842061

 

Scarebird Classic Brakes LLC  10 June, 2009  Rev B

 

RIV B16 Brackets, Upper bolts(9/16-18 HHCS full), SAE banjo bolts, Cotter pins, Hose locks

 

 

 

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IMG_0429 (800x600).jpg

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Most of the guys doing this will use the master cylinder for a '67 Buick with the disk brake option.  It can be purchased at any of your local jobbers.  Just make sure that you get the one that says disc/drum not drum/drum.  It will bolt right to the '63/'64/'65 booster.  There are other threads on this forum that explain which, if any, gaskets and/or O-rings are needed.

 

Ed

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Hi Guys,

We fitted our kit to a 66 LeSabre on the weekend. Our bracket is designed to fit the front of the spindle so there is no change to the toe-in or wheel alignment. The 63-65 brackets work the same way as this one shown. Guaranteed to fit all types of rally wheel and standard factory rims. This customer had two types of rallys normal and disc brake type shown.

Booster worked well and it pulled up straight and easy even though the pads aren't bedded in, so it will only get better.
Standard single master cylinder will be changed to a dual master cylinder soon.

 

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