Guest oldodgeboys Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Does someone have experience setting the spoke torque on late '20s Budd wire wheels? The spoke manufacturer told me 80 in/lbs, but that seems pretty high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 6.6 foot pounds is not very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldodgeboys Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 The spoke shop was pretty clear that the torque was relatively high.All 60 of the spoke threads in each wheel are 5/6 gauge wire...about the size of a #8 or #10 machine screw.I'm not sure how much wire tension these torque values will generate. Do you?How much torque have you been using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 If the spoke manufacturer recommended 80 in/lb, that converts to 6.6 ft/lb which is not very much. The Budd spoke wrench I have is only about 4 inches long, can't pull very high torque reading with that. Practise on a number 10 screw in a vise, you will realise 80in/lb is not much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldodgeboys Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I'm pretty familiar with torque values and I've used many torque wenches from 4 foot long torque wrenches on airplanes to ultra-small torque watches on precision instruments. I've specified, purchased, and calibrated torque wrenches for work.I wonder which torque values have been working for people with these Budd rims. Real world experience with real torque numbers would be great. I know that my feelings don't equate to known tension or the required preload of the spoke itself. If I can derive the torque values empirically (previous data submitted by the people who have actually done it), I think I would have a good starting point.It would be great if I could confirm the 80 in/lb setting, or question it. I also have to think about Model A wire wheels...they were welded. I'm not real sure how they built those wheels, but it would be hard to believe they put much (any?) tension on the spokes as they were being welded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I dont know anything about these, but the question comes to mind.Would one not need to true the wheel then worry about torque. Would not the torque increase on the opposite spoke when tightening, say the top would get tighter when the bottom was tightened? I have a friend that trues up motorcycle wheels every day but have never had a conversation with him about it, other than he doesnt like it because it is a hassel.Bottom line...I dont think you can just torque the spokes and expect the wheel to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldodgeboys Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Thats right. First you must (mostly) true the wheel, then set the torque, and finish truing. It's a hassle and I'm not looking forward to it.I believe that many shops have a varied selection of wheels they do, so its tough for them to make a jig or fixture to get the wheel started. In my case I'm making a jig to set the hub and rim in (close) proximity, then I'll progressively set the torque and spin the wheel with a pair of dial indicators.These wheels don't run true like new wheels and I don't expect a lot of precision in them...but we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Let us know how this comes out. And how many hours it takes for the first one vs the last one.Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldodgeboys Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 I dug out my dusty in/lb torque wrench last night. It has a range up to 80 in/lbs. Although the wrench is not in the ideal range, it should still work. I pulled the wrench to 80 in/lbs and found that nearchoclatetown was right in saying it doesn't seem like much torque. Still though, 60 spokes times the amount of tension in the actual spoke could add up to quite a bit (I would think?).If someone has torqued spokes on these wheels before, please let me know what has worked for you.In the mean time, I've started my calender timer for the first wheel. The last wheel will hopefully be done with a clock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDewey Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 When I did bicycle wheels, I would "pluck" the spokes, the sound will tell you how tight they are. Should work with car wheels to, I'd think.David D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldodgeboys Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 That's the route I was thinking of also, but the shop advised to use a torque wrench. I was even going to use my wife's electronic guitar tuner to be sure they were all basically the same...but then, which note would be correct I wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 DB flat ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I have the same experience with my bicycle wheels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwollam Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I owned a motorcyle shop for years and laced quite a few wheels, including some for dragsters. I never used a torque wrench and never had a jig. Simply laid the rim and hub on the bench and loosely laced them up, screw down nipples evenly until touching and keep tightening them evenly. Before getting very tight, I put them in a truing stand with indicators. Been a few years but if I remember correctly on a m/c wheel the inside spokes control up and down and the outside controls side to side. I am still running wheels I laced 20+ years ago with no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldodgeboys Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Hey Dave...did you just offer to do my wheels? Nothing counts as much as experience! I'll be right over...If I leave now I can be there by Friday afternoon (unless I take the DB, then I'll be there on Tuesday, maybe). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDewey Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Gee, I don't think your DB wheels would fit in my bicycle wheel truing stand!!Better get the wheels done before driving up here in it! Bad rainstorm due too. . . There is a guy in Ataskadero (sp?) who does do wheel spoking!David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 (unless I take the DB, then I'll be there on Tuesday, maybeQuestion is which Tues???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldodgeboys Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Which month is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDewey Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 What year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60ch Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I have laced and trued many motorcycle wheels successfully. My experiences with the 1929, 60 spoke Budd wheel have not been encouraging. I am not going to say that you can or cannot do the job because it will depend on how good the wheel is that you are starting with. I wll list the problems that I encountered, you can get an idea what you might encounter.If the spoke threads and nipples are badly rusted you may not be able to get the nipple to unscrew from the spoke. The spokes have no bend angle at the hub so they are free to rotate in the hub. Using heat to break the rust bond at he nipple may weaken the threaded part of the spoke causing it to twist instead of unscrew. This happened to me after I heated the nipple and held the spoke with vise grips to keep it from rotating. Some spokes came apart, some did not. Even if the spokes did come apart and I removed the rust from the outside threads of the spokes and the inside of the nipples I was left with rough surfaces that were inconsistant from spoke to spoke. This made the assembly and trueing a challenge. I used a nipple wrench because they have the most bearing surface on the nipple and will not round off the corners.You may lose a few spokes in the process. If you have spares then it is not a problem. If you don't, you may want to make sure that you have access to some before you start. Did your wheels came from the dry California desert or were they sunk to the axles in a flooded valley in Minnesota is what is going to determine your success rate. The torque specification in inch pounds or foot pounds will be the least of you concerns. Hope that you can get something from this ramble.. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldodgeboys Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Thanks for the info Terry. The previous owner of the wheels cut off the spokes from the 5 wheels. I have one additional wheel with all the spokes still intact, but the rim rust is too extensive to be usable.I ordered new spokes and nuts for the five wheels, so I should be able to avoid most of the problems you had. Since the spoke threads are new and fresh, I should be able to set the tension of the spokes evenly. It makes sense to me, from a design standpoint anyway, that even torque means even spoke tension, and even spoke tension means even weight distribution on all the spokes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60ch Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Were you able to get exact reproductions of the spokes? About three years ago when I started to work on my wheels I called around and nobody had replacements that were heavier gage on the ends and thinner along the center of the spoke as are my originals. I would really be interested in replacing mine, even the "good ones". Lacing and truing wheels is not that difficult if you have good spokes and nipples. A decent rim also helps. In my opinion the 60 spoke Budd with the outside lock ring is the best looking wheel out there. You will have a real sense of accomplisment when you are done. Good luck. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I like the disk wheels the best, I wish that my car came with those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60ch Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Jason, I have never been able to find a photo of a DA with disc wheels. Where did you see one? Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I think 1927 was the last year for Dodge (cars) to have disc wheels. Some English Graham trucks in 1928 still had 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldodgeboys Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 My '25 has disk wheels, as it should for the 'Special' Roadster. I'm not making any permanent changes to the car in order to run the wire wheels...everything is bolt on, so I can put the disks back on at anytime. Of all the wheel types, I like the disk type the least. I know there are people that like the disks, even some friends told me they like the disks more. The replacement spokes are very close to the originals. I will need to open the holes on the hub by about .005 to fit the new spokes. The rim holes will need to be opened about .010 to fit the new nuts. The main diameter of the new spokes are .022 larger than original.When I got these wire wheels with the car, I couldn't figure out how/why the wheels were used with 20" tires (20" is correct for '25 DB). The best I can tell up to this point, Budd did not make 20" wire wheels for DB. However, Budd did make exactly the same wire wheel for Studebaker in a 20" size. Hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I did not mean to imply Das came with them, they did not. I only wish that they had. Out of all of them I dislike wire the most, keeping them clean and rust free is a chore I dont want to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldodgeboys Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Ahh...but since the car is unrestored (its had lots of use and was barn sitting for about 50 years), the wire wheels will be finished in (accelerated) aged patina that will match the car. No wheel cleaning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Ok thats the wire I can deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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