West Peterson Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I was just asked for my opinion on the value of a 1970 muscle car, perfectly restored. No documentation. I told him the value should not exceed that of a clone. Was I incorrect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Rohn Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 sounds like reasonable advice to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Yaros Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I am sure opinions will be all over the map on this question. What I will say is, I would be willing to pay more for "the real thing" than I would for a recreation, a.k.a. clone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mssr. Bwatoe Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Depends on the make.model options etc.. corvette has diff issues thanhemi cuda..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 If it is a true "matching numbers" car, there may be ways to verify with the MoPars and it WILL be worth more if verified. If it is a MoPar, a friend of mine who verifies fender tags for a business, will be able to tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Not necessarily. An original car is worth more than a clone. What do you mean by "no documentation"? If there is no ID plate, ownership or build sheet how do you know it is "original"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Not necessarily. An original car is worth more than a clone. What do you mean by "no documentation"? If there is no ID plate, ownership or build sheet how do you know it is "original"?I agree with Rusty...a proven "original" will be worth more than a clone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Let's try to narrow this down...is the car in question a MoPar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 No documentation as to its current equipment being original built with the car.As for an "original" being worth more than a "clone," are you saying that a Chevelle/Duster/Mustang, etc. originally built with a six-cylinder three-speed is worth more than if that car were "restored" with a hi-po V8, four-speed, all the trimmings including scoops, spoilers, stripes, etc. Not in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tcuda340 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 We're back to what car is it exactly? You said "musclecar", so that would imply it is something to begin with. A slant six Barracuda is not the same as a 'cuda and the VIN # would bear that out. A Barracuda made into a 'cuda would be worth less than a 'cuda with options installed that couldn't be verified, if both cars were of similar condiion and workmanship. But I have no idea how GM and Ford do things. So what make is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I share you skepticism. The unfortunate recent trend is to pile on options during a restoration. Has anyone ever seen a body-off resto of a stripper model (well, one that wasn't a historic race car)? Rarely did musclecars get ordered as fully loaded luxo-cruisers, since the young male target demographic was more interested in going fast for the least amount of money. I'm assuming that "no documentation" means no build sheet or other proof of how the car was optioned from the factory. I've found that even when asked point-blank, the seller is reluctant to disclose how many of the rare options were actually added during the resto. Usually ads for such cars are VERY carefully worded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) The main option in question would be the engine and drive line. While the vin would point out V8, that wouldn't necessarily point out that it was a hi-po V8. As for "trinket" options, in my opinion that doesn't add much value (if any) to a muscle car.The make of car really is not pertinent to the argument. Edited November 10, 2009 by West Peterson (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 We're back to what car is it exactly? You said "musclecar", so that would imply it is something to begin with. A slant six Barracuda is not the same as a 'cuda and the VIN # would bear that out. A Barracuda made into a 'cuda would be worth less than a 'cuda with options installed that couldn't be verified, if both cars were of similar condiion and workmanship. But I have no idea how GM and Ford do things. So what make is it?Precisely. It would have to have started out as a muscle car to compare with a muscle car. I did not mean that a slant six would be worth more than 440 six pack or HEMI car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 As far as options go, with a MoPar, you can decipher the fender tag and see exactly how the car was built. Then you can tell if it was restored to "original". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 Precisely. It would have to have started out as a muscle car to compare with a muscle car.How so? For the sake of this discussion, the vin reveals that the car was equipped with a V8, not which one.Getting back to my original question, if it's unprovable, wouldn't its value be no more than that of a clone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 How so? For the sake of this discussion, the vin reveals that the car was equipped with a V8, not which one.Getting back to my original question, if it's unprovable, wouldn't its value be no more than that of a clone? If it is unprovable, yes. The VIN on a car usually DOES tell which V8 it came with. That's the idea of the VIN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 There's a good many of cars where the vin does not reveal which V8 was installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 That is why I said "usually".WHAT KIND OF CAR IS IT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I guess what I am getting at is that if it is a Chrysler product, there are ways to tell if the V8 or which V8 was original to the car such as boxed leaf spring perches, etc. If it is a 1970, chances are the VIN would tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest palosfv3 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I find this to be the relevant definition of the word;appraisalA professional opinion, usually written, of the market value of a property, such as a home, business, or other asset whose market price is not easily determined. Usually required when a property is sold, taxed, insured, or financed.West's statement is on target in regards to the undocumented car. If someone took the time to do the research much of the production info is out there and should be able to fill in the missing blanks. What I find troubling is the term itself. The word " appraisal" is defined as an opinion but for the most part many consider the term actual. Just for thought. What information would the appraiser need to justify his opinion. Past sales, the purchase price of the property ? Total investment in the property ? If no such property has transacted recently is the old appraisal figure relevant ? Is the appraiser knowledgeable about the property ? How do you know if the appraiser has done his work correctly?One scenario that continually challenges me is, If the top sale price for a given car is $XXXXX.XX. and someone has spent more than that to restore a similar car to that condition or purchases a similar car for more than that figure . What is the new top value and how is it recognized ? This is a major sticking point with many insurance companies when either writing a new policy or paying a claim.Ultimately the value of the car will only be determined by the seller and a buyer who can agree on an amount of money that will allow the property to transfer from one to another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I agree about the appraisal value stuff. The ultimate determining factor of the vehicle's value is if the car can somehow (through past owners/original owner, hidden VIN under rubber trunk seals, etc.) be proven to be an actual muscle car. If it can't, then the value is as a clone, which would be less than a proven original accessorized muscle car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) You asked specifically about a 1970 muscle car. An original 1970 muscle car, restored, is worth more than a clone of a 1970 muscle car, restored.In a word, I agree with you.Hope this is clear.I don't know what kind of car comes with no clue as to its original model or original equipment. They usually have a metal plate riveted under the hood with details of model options and equipment. Often you find a paper build sheet behind the dash, behind the back seat springs or somewhere.Some cars come with a known history because of documents and pictures dating back to when the car was new.If there is no history, no build sheet and no ID plate then you are justified in marking down the price accordingly. Whether it should be classed as a clone or simply unknown, would be up to you.These days originality and history, especially racing history, are very important. One car's value can be multiples of a seemingly similar car's value, purely due to originality and history. Edited November 10, 2009 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Let's try this from another angle. What does the owner say? If he says he knows the car's history he should be able to back it up with some kind of documentation. If he doesn't know or won't say, it is an indication that the car is a clone. I will not say it is a phony because it is not a phony provided no one tries to pass it off as something it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 It's also significant that you were asked for an opinion not a full blown appraisal. In that case you would be right in taking a more casual attitude. Such as, your car is worth around X dollars but would be worth more if you can document its originality and history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 By stating, "no documentation," I was alluding that the car may, or may not be, a muscle car.The vin and body plates on GM vehicles do not reveal any muscle car lineage. You must rely on paper documentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 It's also significant that you were asked for an opinion not a full blown appraisal. In that case you would be right in taking a more casual attitude. Such as, your car is worth around X dollars but would be worth more if you can document its originality and history.Exactly. If no paperwork, then it's a cut and dry pat answer. Get the paperwork, then let's talk.In this case, the "appraisal" was only on its condition, and not its value. The asking price was far less than that of restoring it to its "perfect" condition, so the buyer was in a "can't loose" situation. He suspects the car is "real", but was paying clone price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moskowitz Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Mr. Peterson, you are a brave man! What was that song? "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread!"Hey, we all know a car is only worth what someone will pay for it, no more, no less. Value, depends on how you look at it! "Value" to each of us could mean something different.Enjoy the discussion young man, or simply ask the Eagle Scout in your family to get the right answer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 The vin and body plates on GM vehicles do not reveal any muscle car lineage. You must rely on paper documentation.That statment is not necessarily true. For example, the 1968-1971 442s carried a unique VIN. Unfortunately, the VIN in these years does NOT carry the engine code, so you cannot prove that the car was an original W-30, for example. Since Lansing-built cars rarely had build sheets in them, and Olds did not retain the build records for these cars, proof is usually VERY difficult.Prior to the 1968 model year, true 442s carried a designator on the cowl tag that indicated the 442 option. On these cars, the 442 package was an option availble on several Cutlass/F85 models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 While I used to professionally appraise automobiles, I was not the appraiser in this case. An appraiser called me to get my opinion. And, like I said, he was basically appraising the condition of the car (the quality of its restoration). I think in passing, he was just curious as to what I thought it was worth. I'd rather not say what kind of car it is, although it's pretty much been ferretted out that it's a GM product.Good discussion, I thought. I'm not sure where the "fools rush in" part comes in, but if a fool is needed, I'll certainly rush in to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Billy McKee Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) If it is a Chevy and it still has the original drivetrain there is a good chance it can be proven to be an original Muscle Car by an appraiser who has experience with the specific marque. In the Camaro world many high dollar cars are "certified" without any documentation which makes them much more valuble than a clone when sold. My 1969 Camaro has no documentation, but by checking things like the pad stamp on the engine that I have attached, it has been certified as a real muscle car with "born with" drive train. Worth much more than a clone. Of course engines can and are "restamped" to try and fool a buyer. A good expert knows how to spot a restamp.Billy Edited November 10, 2009 by Billy McKee grammer (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 I would imagine that the machining marks would be quite different on a restamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Hello West, you are probably aware of the Pontiac Historic Services. If you have a Pontiac you can get a copy of the build sheet for that VIN for about $30, a great service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gary Hearn Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Makes me glad that my collection is comprised mostly of Studebakers. For $40 you can request a copy of the build sheet from the Studebaker National Museum and it will show exactly how the car was built. Unfortunately, there are no records for any of my horse drawn vehicles (nor do they have VIN's). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 The value ,is in the guy that owns it,if you like it keep it,there is no money in this hobby,if you think there is,it is not a hobby.Just my point,i would just like to keep the old ones going,with a 16 year old behind the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 In 1970 original Buick GSs can be identified by body number:43437 = GS coupe44637 = GS 455 coupe44667 = GS 455 convertible.However the VIN does not indicate V8 engine, so I don't think the car is a Buick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyDale Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Hey West,You can only imagine the lengths NCRS Corvette guys go to achieve factory like marks on a:eek: restamp:eek:.diz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) If the car is a Chevy it can be roughly authenticated from the engine numbers. There is a 3 letter code for the motor that should match up to what the car is purporting to be. For instance a 454 1970 Chevelle SS will have an engine code between CRN and CRX, depending on horsepower, compression ratios, and transmission. A '70 LS6 Chevelle will have a CRW code w/ a 4 speed, a CRY code with a 4 speed and "heavy duty clutch", or a CRS code with a TH400.These codes vary between models. An engine pulled from a Chevelle will not have the right numbers for the same motor in a Camaro. If the code on the engine checks out, then the date code on the engine should make sense with the VIN number. An engine dating from May 1970 should not be in a car built in October 1969, for instance.I suppose all of this could be forged, and has. However if the numbers are replaced and it cannot be told that they were, all bets are off anyway.See Cars & Parts Magazine's Catalog of American Car ID Numbers 1970-1979 for more information. Edited November 11, 2009 by Dave@Moon (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 However the VIN does not indicate V8 engine, so I don't think the car is a Buick.Oldsmobile system is similar to Buicks, with the body # serving to id the series. Their VIN numbers do indicate series and 6 or 8 cylinders, but the only bodies that had 6s were F85s and base Cutlass models, neither of which would be a muscle car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Timthemailman Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 This has been a fun topic. Thanks West.My brother bought a 70' Challanger new. Had a 318 in it. About a yr. ago Barrett-Jackson had the same car go across the block. The talking heads said the org. VIN #'s showed the car to be "born" w/ a 318 (bet there was a bunch of em') but had been rebuilt w/a hemi. Brought alot but I'll bet the guy that bought it didn't care it wasn't Original when he was out drivin it.I'd have rather had the 318 myself. But to your point I think you are correct. If not provable, it's not worth more than a clone.I found out when selling my Dad's Binder on line that the VIN # wouldn't tell the engine cubic inch. The build sheet (behind the glove box) would, the engine #'s stamped into block (passanger side,front) would or the tag in front of radiator would. Seems to me a good body man could remove from one & replace on another and nobody would ever know. Just my 2cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) At a local cruise in one year I saw this nice GTO but when I looked the VIN tag it did not have the rights numbers to be a true GTO. My twin was with me at the time and I mention it to him as we look over the car. The following week guess what the same car was there but the VIN tag was covered up. Why hide it. There is no way he could pass it off as a true GTO when he turns around to sell it.A person can spend a lot of money trying to make a clone look like a true muscle car but it is still a clone. No ifs ands or butts Edited November 11, 2009 by Packin31 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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