Jump to content

1915 Metz Model 22


69bird
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hello all,

I have come across a 1915 Metz that is availabe and am trying to do some research before jumping in. The car that is available is rough but fairly complete. It is fairly presemtable and runs. The top is missing, but it appears that some of the pieces come with the car, I noticed amoung the parts 2 of the bows(rough), not sure how many are needed. The interior is shot but is looks like the he has the frame and the springs. The windshield I am told is not original to the car. Speedometer is missing. Radiator leaks.

He does have a bunch of spare parts from various parts cars (five engines, magneto, couple of sets of springs etc)

Basically, my question is, what is availability of parts? (correct windshield frame, speedometer etc) Is the pressure drive disc (I think that is what it is called) available or is there some one that rebuilds or religns them like brake shoes?

What should I expect to pay? I know this is a difficult question. I like the rarity but am concerned because it is rare.

I own a couple of pre war cars (28 Chevy, 32 Chevy, 30 Buick) but I am a little hesitant because of the ability of getting parts

Thanks

Greg

post-64744-143138130133_thumb.jpg

post-64744-143138130138_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

69bird,

Have you looked at the Metz website Metz/Waltham Automobiles – Motorcycles – Bicycles – Air-Car ? More and more of these cars are coming to the surface. There is no Metz car club, but with internet searches, the AACA forum, the Metz website, and Yahoo site more people are connecting also. Send an email to Al Arena at the Waltham Museum The Waltham Museum, Waltham MA , he has been a big help. George Albright is also a good source of info and he has posts on the AACA forum. The paper drive disc can be ordered from Paper Pulleys ($300+). Car cost: it is hard to say, but there are a few cars on the website for sale. And a car just sold at auction, so that gives an idea. A question for you, are the 5 motors all Metz motors? Please keep us posted on your progress/decisions.

Enjoy,

WCMetz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Go to: Metz/Waltham Automobiles – Motorcycles – Bicycles – Air-Car

This is the "official" Metz web site. Most of us Metz owners read it.

There are no Metz parts dealers or repro parts; they generally must be made from scratch. There are some Model T parts that can be adapted to fit (the Metz engine resembles the "T"). The Metz is a less expensive entry into the "Brass" era. For a car that needs some work and missing some body parts like your's, I'd be expecting to pay in the $7,000-$10,000 range. I think the green color is not original, but it looks OK. The body looks correct except for the windshield. Does it have a hood? The spare parts might add to the value as you can sell what you don't need. A decent Metz engine ought to bring $300-700 or so (I saw one at Hershey for $400). Good luck!

Phil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To all, thanks for the input and advice.

Yes I have been to the website, I am trying to find time to get to the museum. I think what interest me most is the friction drive.

Yes it has the hood, yes all of the engines are Metz engines, they all turn free, and appear to be complete. but have no idea about condition. He told me that they are from various years and that one was a 25hp.

The car started right up and ran well, except for the radiator leak and it needed a muffler.

My next question is the lights. He had the head lights and the tail light, (even had spares). But none of the plumbing or the container for (making the gas??)

I know nothing about this system and am still trying to research. Would Model T parts work for this as well as some fabrication? He told me that the container went in a compartment under the trunk. Is this correct? If so, I would assume I could use parts from a "T"

As far as the speedometer, I assume I could use one from a Model "T"

The windshield is the tough one. Can anybody offer some help here? Maybe locating a correct one or provide the correct dimensions and some pictures?

I might try to modify one from a "T" also.

Also, what would have been the correct colors and or how could I research what would have been correct for this car?

I can pick it up for a little less that the low range of what Phil suggested and am starting to think it is a good deal especially with the extra parts.

It just seems like a car that should be preserved.

Thanks again for the help.

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The headlight plumbing is pretty easy. Restoration Supply (RSC) has the brass gas lines, red rubber hoses, and clamps. You just route and bend the lines the same way you would to make brake lines or fuel lines, using a tubing bender available at any auto parts store. The last 6" to 12" to the headlights is rubber, and the first 12" from the supply tank to the lines is rubber. The gas is very low pressure.

The gas for the headlights likely came from a Presto-Light tank, but may have been from a gas generator. Look for round brackets in the trunk. A Presto-Light tank is the easiest source. It's just an acetylene tank. You'll need a regulator. The modern B tanks don't have the offset, and shouldn't be used (unless you can find one with the offset that isn't empty). An MC tank is smaller and is what I'd use.

Just a bit of acetylene trivia... the tank sizes B & MC don't seem to make sense, until you realize that B is for Bus and MC is for Motor Cycle. These tanks were used for headlights on trucks & buses into the early 1920's. Motor cycles with acetylene lights mounted the tank horizontally on the handle bars, and of course needed a smaller tank than buses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

I did it, I am now the proud owner of a 1915 Metz. :)

I picked it up Saturday and trailered it home in the snow. She is now tucked away in the garage waiting for warm weather. Thanks to everybody for all of your input. It took over two hours to load the car and all of the parts. Yes, he had five extra engines, from what I can tell from the engine numbers a 1912, 2-1914's, 1916 and one that is missing the tag. All needing rebuilds, but appear to be complete except for the bolt ons. There were also various other parts, a block, exhaust manifolds, springs, axles, magnetos, complete propeller shaft etc.

It's going to take some time to go thru and inventory everything. Luckily, to help identify everything, he also had an original, what appears to be an owners manual titled "Metz Cars", and a price list of parts. He also gave me an AACA magazine from March 1967 with a great article titled "C. H. Metz Automotive Pioneer" by Franklin Tucker. Great article with a lot of information, couldn't put it down the night I got home.

Now, the next trip is to the Waltham Museum.

I'm sure I will be posting again as I get into the restoration

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good luck with your car. There are a few of us restoring Metz cars (mine is a 1913 Model 22), so hopefully we may help each other! There are several things almost always missing on Metz cars: the chain cover(s), the engine pan (sheet metal cover under the engine), the metal plates with shifting instructions & car I.D. Always missing is the side curtain set.

Phil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

When you go over to Waltham to visit Albert Arena's museum in the old fire house,,,,Dont forget to leave a little time to visit the,,,,CHARLES RIVER MUSEUM,,,they have some good stuff too,,,,and when you visit Al,,,bring a video camera and SEVERAL disks,,,,he JUST might fill em,,and pay attention to the fact Waltham was probably the countrys first and most productive automatic screw machines,,,,make watch parts and put em in a bucket,,,one person to tend dozen machines,,,Ford came to look,,,So did Messrs Stanley,,Waltham watch co was making nearly 1 million watches/year before the civil war,,and 6 different steam cars at the turn of the century,,These details may be a bit off,,,,but not by so much I think,,The watch factory is still rented,,and is 1/2 mile from Al's Museum,,, If its Waltham,,Al knows about it,,gaurenteed,,,Cheers,,Ben

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

So, I finally got the old girl running. My father in-law volunteered me and the Metz to drive in his local Memorial Day Parade this past Sunday. He was marching with the veterans and one of his friends who is almost as old as the car saw a picture and just had to ride in her in the parade.

She was no where close to being ready for a parade, but how could I say no.

So I worked on her most of the day Saturday getting her ready

I drained the gas tank, cleaned the carb and changed the oil. Installed a new friction wheel that I ordered from Paper Pulleys last fall. (That took a little time to figure out who to adjust.)

Adjusted the brakes.

After about a half a dozen cranks, she fired right up. Then it was time for a quick cleaning and loading onto the trailer

Sunday morning, we arrived at the parade site and she was a hit. Everybody had to have their picture taken with her, we were even interviewed by the local paper.

Then the moment of truth came. The parade was about to start. My passenger got in the Metz, I cranked the engine and she started right up. Aside from a couple of little radiator leaks, she drove the mile and a half parade route admirably:)

I'm not sure what was better, driving her down the road for the first time, or seeing all of the smiling faces admiring her

post-64744-143138550126_thumb.jpg

post-64744-14313855013_thumb.jpg

post-64744-143138550134_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 7 months later...

We just bought a 1914 Metz and we are trying to figure out what the correct taillight for this car would be. It seems as though this car came with the electric package, so we are looking for a photo of the electric light they would have had with this car. Can you help? The engine number is 28345 so I am also looking for ownership history on this car as well. Thank you!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

I found that my car would not climb a small slight grade in our subdivision. So I cleaned the residue off of this wheel and tried again. This time the car climbed the minor grade. To test it out more I attempted to have it climb a steeper grade. I wound up having my wife tow me to the top of the hill. I see that the wheel is again encrusted with residue from the drive plate (the one attached to the engine.

Also I need to know if this car should have the following items:

1. A fan attached to the motor. (Currently there is no fan at all on this car. I worry that I will find how fast it will overheat this summer.)

2. An adjustible magneto (I am told the car will to idle correctly because the magneto needs to be adjusted.)

3. The ability to advance/retard the spark from the steering column.

4. An oil filler tube that does not have a cork shoved part way down the tube. (Is there supposed to be a breather cap for this tube?)

The friction wheel is my top priority, but as you can not my only concern.

Thank you in advance for your continued assistance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Search e/bay for owners manual,,

Belley pan below,,w/ fan blades in flywheel,,,,not sure of model,,

Clean off drive wheel,,

Call Albert Arena at Waltham Museum,,see if he has any helpful paper,,,Hes not a mechanic,,,but he DOES know Waltham,,He may know owner of same model,,

I have seen a disk drive spin wheels on trailer ramp,,,impressive,,

Good luck,,Ben

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 6 months later...

Over heating, kill switch and rear view mirror: 1915 Model 22 Metz

Has anyone dealt with over heating of the engine? If so, how did you remedy that? I have already had teh radiator off, flushed and resealed. I have had the head off and cleaned out the upper part of teh engine as best I could and flushed it with a hose one other time. But she still over heats when I have the cover over the engine. With the cover off over heating is not that much of a problem but the problem is there. Any advice will be appreciated. Oh one other thing on this, the previous owner installed a small electric fan on the radiator using zip ties to hold it in place. He placed a charged 12 V battery in the trunk and ran wire to the fan. There is a switch on the dashboard to turn the fan on and off.

The kill switch has quit functioning. I have cleaned the poss but to no avail. I presume replacing the switch is the only answer.

Was there a standard rear view mirrot that was used by Metz on these cars? If so, where can they be obtained? If not are there recommendations for available rear view mirrors.

Thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The magneto kill switch simply connects the mag to ground (ie; the chassis via the cowl in my 22). You can test it with a continuity setting on a multimeter. Short the mag wire to ground. If the engine stops, your switch isn't grounding properly. If it keeps going, your mag wiring is bad. For the Metz with a "real" windshield, you can use a screw-on mirror such as sold by Restoration Supply. The earlier windscreen-type Metz might work with those, also. Your car shouldn't overheat, especially when moving. Has the radiator been cleaned? Search the Model T Forum under "overheating" or the like. Here is a sample discussion. The T is a lot like the Metz.

Good Luck,

Phil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, Phil. The Metz is in storage right now (by the calendar it is winter in western Illinois). But I can get to it an will check out the bmag wiring. I believe the windshield I have is a real one. There are 2 panes of glass. I can swing out the panes to let air in the cab if I desire. Doesn't work too good though as the glass keeps swinging closed. But I will check Restoration Supply. The radiator has been taken out and hand delivered to a business north of Peroria, Illinois. The guy supposedly boiled it out and repaired all the leaks and repainted it (black). My radiator cap is vented and I can see steam spewing out. Additionally, I have had her so hot that I could reallyb hear her boiling inside. Now this happened this fall when I had the hood closed over the engine. This summer when it was so hot I had the hood off, as I was working on various things. I never encountered the heating problem. My hood is not vented. By that I mean there are no slits open in the side of it like I have seen in other autos. Also I do not have a pan below the engine. That causes me to believe that the fly wheel is not able to work efficiently to channel air movement over the engine. Possible?

Again thanks for the help.

Jerry

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A car with flywheel fan spokes will boil if you leave the hood open for just a few minutes,!!!

If you do not have the belly pan on,,,there will be NO air circulation at all,,!!!!

Refer to page 17,,,my comments

See if you can put up photos,,,,This thread started on someone else car,,,Is yours the same yr/model

Make cardboard templates for the missing belly pan,,Then duplicate in sheet metal,,,

You may need a reinforcment strap to keep shape around flywheel,,

Ford used this system on the R-S-and N,,,and Simplex on the big,,,BIG,,600cid 50Hp,

,yes they boil too if hood is left open,,

Experement with gorilla tape and cardboard,,,Good luck,,,Ben

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have looked at the pictures acompanying this thread and believe my Model 22 is similar if not the same. Now I have found that Ethyl (my name for the car) did not overheat when I had the hood off this summer. I drove it within my subdivision testing the friction wheel to see if I could climb the hills. Typically that answer was "no". As the summer went along I continued periodically driving Ethyl and never experienced any over heating. And it was a hot summer. Advancing to this fall as i got her ready for her long winter's nap, I put the hood back on and drove her within the subdivision hoping that I had resolved the slippage issue. (I had improved it, solved is a stretch). Anyway, I did not go very far and she goot hot on me. I could hear her boiling! I returned to my riveway after a short jaunt to let her cool down. The day was completely overcast and cool (cool in the context of comparing to the past summer). I tried her again and she began to heat up on me. So I brought her back to the house and rested her. A few days later I drove her without the hood on and I found she was much less prone to overheating. I drove her from our home to the storage facility the approximate mile without the hood on. She climbed a hill and arrived without incident at the facility. There was a little steam venting through the radiator cap when I drove her into the building.

I am in agreement with you that I think she would behae better if I had a pan underneath the engine and the hood on. I will try to have one fabricated this winter provided I can find a local fabricator at a reasonable cost. I need to find some pictures of a pan though so we can have a guide. A question, does the fly wheel also need to be 'encased' to make this cooling system function? I am still going to have a back up though. There will be an electric fan mounted on the radiator that can be used to assist in cooling the engine. My wife and I are anxious to have Ethyl in parades this coming year. And we do not want Ethy becoming a spewing spectical.

BTW, I have seen some comments about mufflers. Ethyl is a bit loud. Were these cars 'loud' or did they run quiet. That is a round about way of asking if I should get a new muffler? Which leads medirectly to where does one gat a muffler for a 1915 Model 22? I am presuming that I look at Model T mufflers. Correct assumption?

Sincerely, thanks for the guidance and help.

Jerry

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Modeltford.com is Don Lang 's T Ford parts site,,,Hes got a good catalogue w/ pics/sketches of parts,,,,1-800-872-7871

Been doi'n it for years,,,Last I knew he had 4 full time ,,packing parts and ans the phone,,

Such is the legasy of 15million model t's,,,80 years later,,,Cheers,,Ben

Edited by cben09 (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks. I looked a the pictures and that helps. Also, relavent to cben09's troubles, earlier today I tried to get on the system to renew my membership but was unable. I called and talked to someone to pay the fee. I was told they were having troubles with the system but were working on it. It has been a challenge for me to get on this evening. Takes a while to load up. Its good to see there are gremlins in things other than old Metz cars! ;-)

Oh before I go, in looking at the pictures of the Bonhams Metz, I see it is black with yellow wheels. That is the color combination of mine (a 1915 Model 22 Foredoor). I thought these cars were supposed to be dark blue with cream colored wheels. I would prefer that combination but if my car is the correct colors i will not be changing them. Note changing clolors of this car is a very low priority for local management (wife) but it is a little higher for me (laborer).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Special Roadster was a somewhat stripped-down "22". It was painted a vermilion color. The Franklin Tucker article was in March-April 1967 "Antique Automobile" (Vol. 31, No. 2), and was continued in No. 3. Every Metz owner should have it. There's often a copy on eBay (here, for example). The whole year is here.

Phil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re Radiator,,,,

It will run hot but shouldn't boil[ much ]

There should be a OVERFLOW tube,,,it had one,,,

Vent [ hole ] in cap could spray boiling water,,,on you,, or a child at the parade,,,NOT good,,

Above 15--20 mph or more a fan is not necessary,,Below 15 mph,, OR ,,on a heavy hill for instance,,,it is very necessary,,

Now,,the fan is in the flywheel,,and is totally useless unless the belly pan is there to direct the air flow,,

Directing the air flow is absolutely essential,,,,,,Now the air comes in the radiator,,,wanders around the engine and then is directed out past /through the flywheel,,,IF the hood is open,,OR if there is no tight fitting belly pan,,the flywheel will just stir the air around it,,,and will NOT PULL THE AIR THROUGH THE RADIATOR,,,THE belly pan is most essential,,,,,See if this will post,,then try Ign subject,,,As ever Ben

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You've had it running so all the parts are there,,,aaah good,,

Look on the bottom of the mag for the model #,,,You may need a mirror,,

alternate,,,good pictures,,,Metz was looking for price,,and used more than one model of mag ,,

Some of the fellows have forgotten these,,as the N-U series,,that used a commutator not a distrubutor

and fired 2 plugs at once,,,,,I dont think you have that one,,,so dont worry,,,,yet,,haha,,,

I assume you know,,,Metz designed the block so that it uses Ford model T head gasket,,,Call Don Lang in Ma

"" modeltford.com""" is his site,,,Last I knew he had four people packing parts,,,

So the world is after making 15 million model T Fords 80 years ago,,,still a demand,,,Cheers,,Ben

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks. This winter I will see if I can get someone to fabricate the belly pan for me. I have received a requested Restoration Supply Comapny catalog and see many items they offer that will be used on our Metz. BTW, ourMetz does have the overflow tube you mentioned. I am going to get a better cap for teh radiator completer with a motormeter.

Extending to you and all that read this message best wishes for a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does anyone have pictures of the " belly pan " and the protective guard that encloses the Fluted Fly Wheel? If so, I would like to have copies sent to my email address ( jladla69@comcast.net ). I have found a fabrication shop that believes they can make the parts. But I have no real idea of what they look like. I have never seen these parts. I have an idea that the belly pan looks like a very big cookie sheet. I can make a mock up using carboard and duct tape as has been suggested. But I would guessing as to what I am making. I do not know if the belly pan covers the base of the radiator or not; nor do I really know how far back it extends. Is the covering for the fly wheel a part of the belly pan or is it a completely seperate item. Any visual help is greatly appreciated. Also if some one already has the dimisions, I'd appreciate getting that information as well. A most sincere thanks for your assistance.

Jerry

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...