DATABASE SUBMISSION WARNING

[Guest steveskyhawk]

As most of you know there is an unofficial, unverified database with some basic information about some of the Reattas produced between model years 1988 and 1991.

You may be asked to provide supplemental information for this db from time to time and you may believe that you are obligated to do so or that you are doing the Reatta community a favor. In my opinion not so. I have multiple cars myself and find many salvage cars in Los Angeles and prefer to never submit data. I would hope that you do the same and I will tell you why.

This database is unverified. If an unsuspecting person submits data that is NOT accurate it can be very damaging. Say for example this well wishing person reports a car as scrapped and for whatever reason transposes a couple of digits in the VIN. Imagine that the VIN just happens to be the VIN of say YOUR beautiful '90 Convertible. No matter how well intentioned and careful the reporter is, mistakes like this are made. Now imagine how many calls you will receive if you put your pride and joy up for sale. The potential buyers that consult the database will not even bother to look because they will assume it was wrecked. Not a pretty picture.

First, I suggest that everybody check the database for accuracy in regards to their own cars. If you find an error insist that it be corrected.

Second, If your car is not in the database do not report it. If a mistake is made you know what can happen.

Third, if you run across a scrapped car do not report it. It is gone so what difference does it make?

Most importantly, if you cant resist the temptation to report data for the database please triple check the data before submission. There is no guarentee that the data will be recorded correctly but at least it wont be all your fault.

I freely admit that I have consulted the db many times and find it fun to browse. I always consult the db prior to looking at a car to buy. The dangers of inaccurate data became apparant when I realized that I'd rather buy a car that IS NOT in the database. No news IS good news in this case.

[padgett]

Are you talking about the one that Barney maintains or is there another one ?

In Barney's there may be errors (my 88, 3681, seems to be in there twice), but the only way to make it accurate is to feed the information including "scrapped" cars. I cannot see any downside to giving Barney information that may be valuable in the future. Do you subscribe to CARFAX ? It is even less likely to be accurate but still has value. Could "borrow" their disclaimers. Never thought it was Biblical.

I do not understand your concern, a good researcher never accepts a single source.

[Booreatta]

WOW I have to agree totally with Padgett. The data base is just that a data base and I dont think that It was ever intended to be a source of information for a person to use to purchase a car. Steve, just the fact that you find the data base not to be accurate is laughable at best. In the first place the data base has been on the Reatta.net site longer than you have been a member of this forum and a lot of information would have changed in the time you were not a member. I would think that you would work to improve things by adding updates and not taking shots at the people who spend their own time trying to make our hobby better and with out pay.

Padgett is right you should pay for your information from Carfax or the NADA site and stop the personal attacks on members of this forum that have offered information to the base. I dont know anybody that has ever offered any false information to the data base, and the accuracy of the data base is based on members to make sure things are correct and to send any and ALL corections to the keeper of the data base Barney Eaton. I would think that if you found any information that was not corrct as a resposible member of this forum you would want to submit a correction. Critizism is the easiest part of you day and you are good at it

[Rawja]

While I can sorta see Steve's point, the database is easily and readily correctible and is not represented as definitive by any means.

I've bought two Reattas and shopped at least 10 over the years and it has never even occurred to me to consult the database, it's more of an ephemera thing to me, not canon.

[Guest Richard D]

After Steve's last few posts it almost seems like he has some personal problem with another member and is trying to take them public. Like Padgett and others I see no fault in maintaining a database available to all, even if not perfect.

[reattadudes]

Steve is exactly right. information is only as accurate as provided, and the way much of the information was gathered is suspect at best.

gleaning information from places like eBay, Craig's List, Autotrader, and any other print or online source is only asking for error. the VIN has 17 digits; that's 17 different opportunities for mistakes. I don't think most folks see the database is meant as a "ballpark" list, yet that is exactly what it is.

let's look as some basic facts first. the regular posters here make up far less than 1% of the total number of Reatta owners. add the "lurkers", and the number might jump up to 4%. that leaves 96% of the Reatta owners (or potential owners) either unaware or totally uninterested in this forum at all.

now, let's say you are interested in buying a Reatta. you don't have any Reatta knowledge at all, so you turn to the internet. a quick Google seach turns up reatta.net. there is a database there, and you look up the VIN number of the car you are looking at; it shows either bad information, or information that is totally inconsistent with what the car actually is. you say screw it, I'll buy an Allante. is this acceptable? I think not. it should clearly be stated that the database may contain errors. it does not say that anywhere.

most collector car databases are comprised of information that is supplied by the manufacturer. the Reatta database, for the most part, does not.

let me give an excellent example.

I received the GM master list of all 1991 Reatta convertible production about four months ago. Barney Eaton has the same list.

I'm not going to go thru the whole list, but am only going to concentrate on just four cars. they have VIN numbers 900014, 900015, 900016, and 900017. the GM list provides absolutely no information about the cars; all it says is CAD (these four cars were shipped to Cadillac Motor Division). under the "status" section (this provides option and color information), it says 'NO REC" (no record). in other words, there is absolutely no information from GM.

now, let's compare this with the information provided on the database for these same four cars. the database now shows the cars were white (GM didn't know the colors, but the database does?), and they were "pilot cars", and "probably scrapped". probably? is this definitive, or just a guess?

it's a guess. and that is only four cars of 305. how many more errors are there?

how would you feel if you were looking at one of these four cars to buy from GM (they all still exist, and two of them are Polo Green), and consulted the database, and found that the car you were looking at was "probably scrapped"? how would you feel to find out that the car was "white", yet the car you were looking at wasn't, and never was?

in reality, the pilot cars stopped at 900013. the cars shipped to Cadillac WERE NOT scrapped. this (again) was a guess on the database, and a wrong one at that.

and that was only for four cars.

how would you feel if you had your pristine Reatta for sale, and were getting no calls? how would you feel if you found out there was a Reatta database, and your car was shown as being wrecked or scrapped?

we stopped using Carfax altogether in 2004, when we found the accuracy rate was about 52%. again, change one digit of the VIN, and it's a different car.

I wouldn't anticipate the database as being any more accurate than that. there should also be a disclaimer that the information is assumed to be accurate, but is not guaranteed.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

[Ronnie]

I'm going to put in my 2 cents about the database but as usual, I'm sure a couple of people here, who try to dominate everything, are either going to try to downplay what I say or twist it around to be their own idea. Anyway here goes.

I think the database should be maintained and added to when the data can be reasonably deemed to be accurate. I don't think including the owners name serves any purpose and listing it on the Internet could be a privacy issue. The database raw data should not be made public as it is now. As people have said in this tread already, the raw data can easily be misinterpreted or the data can be inaccurate

What should be made public is the statistics that can be derived from the information. Barney does give us some of those statistics from time to time here on this forum and on reatta.net. I find them very interesting and I would like to see a lot more of the statistics about the Reatta posted. The statistics would be fairly accurate even if there were some mistakes in the raw data as the statistics would be based on averages instead of individual records.

I think Barney has the best interest of Reatta Owners at heart with posting the database raw data online. I commend him for taking the time to do it. However, I do see the potential of raw data causing problems in selling your Reatta if the VIN number showed up as being in the wrong place at the wrong time or misused in some other way. I have not submitted the data on my Reatta for those reasons. I have no problem with Barney having data about my Reatta but I don't want to share it with the whole world.

[padgett]

It is not quite that bad, really only four digits that are variable, another that specifies coupe or 'vert and one for year. I am in one club (Vixen) that just uses the last three for ID. It would be simple to write a macro to scrub the database and verify the check digit.

However is is just one data point and you should never use sole source just a CarFax is another data point with limited accuracy (generally what is there is correct but things are liable to be missing).

So you have one verifiable element: the VIN. You may also have a manifest, option list, or window sticker. All of which demonstarte how the car left the factory. Most collectors stop here.

For some cars, the provenance, the ownership history is also provided. This may show who owned the car, where it was registered, the odo reading at various points in its life, and significant events.

Except for very low milage or cars owned by celebrities this is rarely as important as condition, condition, condition.

Now today, the Reatta is probably at the bottom of its value curve. Nice inexpensive ones are still being treated as just "used cars" because there are enough on the market to do so.

That said, one of the keys to collector status is documentation and the spread of knowlege. The rarer/more valuable the car, the more documentation required. We are not there yet but will be soon.

[Guest spyhunter2k]

I forgot about the names being included, and I would agree that they serve a very limited purpose. If Barney ever decided to modify the viewable version to exclude those, a few more may participate by contributing their car's information.

It's really the original build details pertaining to the car (sunroof, exterior color, interior color, body moulding color, 16-way, CD) that could prove useful, especially as the cars get older and more and more are modified from their stock form (like my car, a 90 that was originally red but is now grey and is in the process of having its tan interior replaced with black).

16-way seats have been added to cars that were not originally equipped with them. There are some sunroof coupes out there that presently appear to be hard tops because the sunroof was removed and the cover glassed in. Some have painted their body side mouldings to match the body color during a repaint. Select 60 emblems that were never attached have made the rounds and have potentially been affixed to non-S60 cars. True, the RPO label attached to the car doesn't lie, but many purchases are made from a distance and the potential buyer doesn't have access to these codes.

[charlie1]

I had a problem with Carfax entering the wrong mileage on one of my cars (what a mess) Seems some of the local dealers may get paid a fee from Carfax for suppling information. In my case I took my car into the dealer for service and the service writer entered the wrong mileage. This got sent to Carfax and it was up to me to correct. What a mess! You can decrease the value of a fine car if it looks odometer it is tampered with.