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Bhigdog

I thought I would puke

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Intransigence is pervasive in the U.S. today. It was recently made an almost admirable character feature in large parts of the country, and is becoming more so every day. At the very least it's seen by many as a reasonable substitute for strength of character.

Right now on another thread we have whole groups of people complaining about the terrible bias against American cars in the latest Consumer Reports survey, the one where the single most reliable (non-hybrid) car sold in America was found to be a Ford. Not only does every imaginable explanation of the process not stop the belly-aching, but a complete reversal in the results of the process goes unrecognized in order to continue it!

So now not only do you have to defend your position on any given question, you have defend against whatever extreme distortion of that position might arise. "Butchered", "death panels", "nazis", "furrin' cars"...., it's all the same.:(

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If ever a title from a thread should have been changed it is this one! Every time I see this I wonder how many new former guests view it and wonder "what the..." Somehow seeing the word puke is not all that conducive to what we have tried to do with having these forums.:( However, I do understand the concerns. Maybe ill would have been better than puke!:D

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to go off the deep end or someone to politicize the thread.

AACA stands firmly behind the preservation and restoration of vehicles from our history. We are one of a small group of clubs that have taken this stand. Other clubs are more inclusive, I am a member of some of those clubs as well. However, I totally believe in what we do and in the importance of our stance.

At one time I thought if you were a car nut, you were a car nut. I have come to see a huge amount of extremism in the car hobby in general. Whether it be the editor of a magazine who offers a "reward" for anyone who would turn a Duesenberg into a street rod or a person who is offended by someone who builds a rod out of new parts or thrashed car parts that nobody wants, it is a very skewed way of looking at things.

As another poster has said, this debate has gone on for decades, even at the very beginning of the hobby. We will never resolve it on this website but this forum should be mostly about antique cars. There are many great sites for the street rod and hot rod community.

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My point is that terms such as "butchered" are ones of passion that are utilized to sway the opinions of others. While I have not seen the car nor the workmanship in question, it could have also been described as "altered" or "modified".

Of course my use of the word "butchered" was chosen purposely. Not to sway anyone's opinion but to convey a sense of what was done to two particular beautiful automobiles. "Altered" or "modified" convey absolutely no sense of scale or degree. Butchered was/is a much more descriptive term. As far as using terms like quality challenged, visually deficient, improvement impaired or some other P.C. non-sense........Fugetaboutit........................Bob

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Let me throw in my 2 cents. I see this thread has been going for several days and see proof that opinions are like belly buttons - everybody has one. Here's mine. I own a 1956 Chevy Nomad I've had for almost 25 years. The car was modified when I got it. It has a 350 and 4-speed. The body in untouched except for the non-original color. It has an Olds power bench seat. It would be absolutely impossible to put the car back as original and I wouldn't even try. I enjoy it the way it is and drive it regularly to local shows and club events. Almost two years ago I purchased a 1932 Chevy 5-window coupe. It had been redone 10 or 12 years before. It was an amature job but the guy didn't "butcher" anything. I am almost finished with a professionally done total frame-off restoration. The car will be as close to absolutely original as I can make it. My point is, work with what you've got. If it's already altered go with it and enjoy it. If you have a rust free 32 Chevy with the original running gear - why would anyone rod it when you can buy a fiberglass kit car that would make a better rod anyway. That's my opinion anyway.

Edited by olsarge
typos (see edit history)

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Actually I had second thoughts before I used the word "puke" in the thread title, Steve. It truly is a vulgarity. But I specifically chose to use it because it was used in context. Viewed in context I was only trying to convey my feelings at the moment. I think I succeeded.

And you are correct nothing will be decided by this thread. I never thought anything would be.

I just needed to vent, my wife was tired of hearing it and the dogs just didn't seem to understand.

But you must admit, Steve. The whole thread has been lively without any really nasty posts, has generated a lot of interest and opinions, and who knows it just may have altered a few minds to a better place. Isn't that what A healthy forum is all about?...........Bob

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I would of been nice if all of the lower priced cars of the 30s and 40s would of had overdrives as a option so then there would be no need to modify to drive at todays highway speeds,when the mid 50s came along then they all could be driven that fast.

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Jeff, most of the speed limits are still 55 which is easy for these cars, and they'll run 60-65 if you so desire. And on the 70 mph highways the big cars like the Buick 320 cid, the Packard 327 cid and larger, the Chrysler New Yorker, the Cadillac V-8 and others will run right along with the rest, again if you so desire. And at the same time, they didn't sound like a chain saw like so many of these little cars today.

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My 37 chevy p/u was done at 55,I had it up to 70 a few times but it sounded like it was going to come apart so I did not push it. I dont mind taking the back road but I dont want to be forced to so I need them to go just a little faster,I know the big cars of that era could but not many of the low priced cars were geared for anything over 60 I know the roads were not as good back then as they are today and the motors did not have the power either but I have no trailer and have to drive them.

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Well, most trucks were worse in that area than the cars, some up through the 1960s. My dad had a 1969 Chevy 1 ton with the in line six and what must have been a 5.13 gear. Whew!

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I frequent a number of automotive forums that run the gamut . From the AACA to the HAMB. I have a very open mind when it comes to autos as my primary focus is on the metalworking and extreme attention to the detail that goes into an auto, be it stock , racing or custom.

What I find somewhat amusing ( no disrespect intended) is that there are guys on the HAMB(a forum dedicated to traditional hot rods and customs) that are just as passionate about restoring an old rod or custom back exactly like it was in 1952 ( I confess to be one of them)and they are having just as difficult a time dealing with the new people that are taking up the rod and custom hobby straying from what it was and they would hope it would continue to be.

There is a point where unfortunately some makes or models of early automobiles will become extinct. Hopefully all who have this passion for the auto will realize were all in this together and can work for the benefit of all involved. Thanks to people like SAR in Portland you can secure a new 33/34 Ford 3 window body as well as the rest of the sheetmetal for the car. I'm sure this effort is a benefit to all. Especially if you have to find a good set of front fenders for one of these cars.

Where will it all end is anyones guess. One thing for sure it will be a matter of aestetics and economics as to what will survive. The cars are not any different than an old relic from the past. Some will forever occupy a special place in the future with little or no effort and others future hang on a thread held by someone that will forever hold a place in their heart .

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The old trucks were made to work not take for a leisurely sunday drive and would not like to have been a over the road truck driver with what they had to drive and the roads to drive them on,since my 37 will never haul a load again I do want to go a little faster.

Well, most trucks were worse in that area than the cars, some up through the 1960s. My dad had a 1969 Chevy 1 ton with the in line six and what must have been a 5.13 gear. Whew!

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Does anyone know what happened to the tooling after Graham and Hupp were done? I thought I read years ago that there were some unfinished 4 door bodies around. Is that B.S.?

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It may be part of the other story about the dies being sold to Japan.:rolleyes:

Does anyone know what happened to the tooling after Graham and Hupp were done? I thought I read years ago that there were some unfinished 4 door bodies around. Is that B.S.?

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AACA stands firmly behind the preservation and restoration of vehicles from our history. We are one of a small group of clubs that have taken this stand. Other clubs are more inclusive, I am a member of some of those clubs as well. However, I totally believe in what we do and in the importance of our stance.

And again, I think that is totally appropriate. Again, however, there does seem to be a slippery slope. Putting a small block Chevy in a 1930s car is not allowed, but this forum apparently has no problems with threads about swapping a 3800SC motor into a Reatta, which never offered that engine. That's not exactly "preservation". Where does one draw the line? Does putting a late model T5 overdrive transmission behind the flathead in an otherwise stock 32 Ford count as preservation? How about swapping the Stovebolt six in a 50s Chevy for a GMC 302? Is that prohibited if I did it today? How about if the same swap had been done in 1954?

At one time I thought if you were a car nut, you were a car nut. I have come to see a huge amount of extremism in the car hobby in general. Whether it be the editor of a magazine who offers a "reward" for anyone who would turn a Duesenberg into a street rod or a person who is offended by someone who builds a rod out of new parts or thrashed car parts that nobody wants, it is a very skewed way of looking at things.

I think the fundamental difference here is that nearly all hotrodders I know can also appreciate a totally stock restoration.

As another poster has said, this debate has gone on for decades, even at the very beginning of the hobby. We will never resolve it on this website but this forum should be mostly about antique cars. There are many great sites for the street rod and hot rod community.

Keep in mind that "antique" now covers my 1984 Olds Custom Cruiser. Is the reality that the objection is to modifying 1930s and older cars?

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Joe, I wouldn't know what a 1984 Olds looked like unless you posted a photo, much over what is stock or modified. Important thing to me is I DON'T CARE, the hobby is loosing interest in Pre 1943 vehicles. If someone wants to save one by restoring or rodding that is fine with me. The AACA is loosing people IMO because of the quest of the perfect 400 point car, and bashing people with anything less that perfect as it left the factory finish. Hot rodders that I personally know are into having fun, and most share a deep interest in the history of the automobile.

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Bob...I have no disagreement at all about the discussion, I am glad it is mostly civil and it is the same discussion that goes on in magazines, other websites and among friends. This is one that there will never be universal agreement on.

Joe, one thing about this forum, it is open to other clubs who do have modified cars. We are not about to tell OCA or the Buick club that they cannot discuss engine swaps and the like. That is for them to decide. We as a club have always expressed what we believe in but no campaign to be "anti" to any other club's belief system. Kind of like worshipping in your own place but not finding fault with others who worship in a different way.

I think the fundamental difference here is that nearly all hot rodders I know can also appreciate a totally stock restoration. Joe, I have to respectfully disagree that this is a generality shared by everyone. I know hot rodders who literally hate stock vehicles and have put that in writing. I know people with AACA national awards who have a hot rod or street rod in their garage.

Everyone has their own reality Joe, some could care less if a 70's or 80's car is modified some still see it as a danger to our history. My personal opinion (has nothing to do with the club) is that I hate seeing a rare car modified. To see a '38 Olds Convertible, dual sidemounts, rumble seat with a 455 Olds does bother me, a LOT. Yet, I have seen cars that no restorer seems to wants that have been turned into a work of art. I would rather see that happen than the car rust away. I have a friend that is building an amazing car that defies description. Is it a coach built car? A resto-rod? A street rod? I know he has been searching what to call it but the vehicle is mostly hand fabricated. I am glad I got to see it but equally glad to see the stock Duesenberg being restored right next to it.

There is probably room for all of us to like what we like. I am just glad that AACA exists to stand up for saving a history that should not be lost. Once it is gone, it is gone and then we have lost if for future generations. I look at my cars as nothing that I own, just as something I am a caretaker of for hopefully some younger person in the future to enjoy as I do.

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What's even worse is the guy I know that has a 1959 Chev Impalla convert, 60 2dr hardtop, 61 2dr hardtop, 62 2dr hardtop and a 63 2dr hardtop, 47 Cadillac, 41 Ford coup rusting literally into the ground in the woods behind a field. He used to have a 68 Corvette convertible sitting in the yard with the hard top laying in the yard full of water growing mosquitoes and salamanders.

And he won't sell any of them.

I almost got on my knees and begged for the 59 convert. and he wanted something like 3000.00 for it. There was a tree growing up through the hood.

Great thread guys.

Bill Harmatuk

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Steve, Was the Oldsmobile "Pirate" a stock car ar one time?

Bob, actually no it was not. All information we have is that it was a purpose build race car that was designed for one reason.

Edited by Steve Moskowitz (see edit history)

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1937hd45,

If you think that AACA is only about newer old cars and 400 point cars, you are missing the boat. You should be in Fuquay-Varina NC and see how much fun we are having driving 1931 and earlier cars this week!

Yes, my car is a Senior Grand National Winner, but I have it out here burning up the roads with about 74 other cars including stuff like a 1912 E-M-F, a 1914 Hudson, a 1914 Pullman, a few Model T Fords, lots of other Model A Fords, Buicks, Packards, Studebakers, Franklins, Chryslers, Nash, Chevrolets and others.

Great fun with Great People and Great cars! Touring is AACA at its best!

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Yes, you have a great point Mat, but Touring people are a far different crowd that the pick the car apart on the showfield or Forum people. Haven't had the '12 T Touring out in 12 years now, maybe 2010 will be different.

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Steve, thanks for the reaffirmation of the AACA's values and direction. It's why I'm here. In the future I'll try to be only "ill" ( but I can't promise)..............Bob

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1937hd45,

I would have to disagree...

My car is a Senior Grand National Winner. I am touring with that same car. I am also a Judge. I intend to take that same car to New Bern next year to compete for Repeat Senior Grand National. Call me crazy if you want to, but I enjoy it all.... even though Touring is the best!

So, I guess under your definition, I have Three different personalities. I guess I am crazy!

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No, We're BOTH normal, I had a Grand National winner, did Judge AACA for 30 years, liked Touring a LOT, and have a race car and Hot Rod under restoration. Seeing a car like yours on Tour is always a joy.:)

1937hd45,

I would have to disagree...

My car is a Senior Grand National Winner. I am touring with that same car. I am also a Judge. I intend to take that same car to New Bern next year to compete for Repeat Senior Grand National. Call me crazy if you want to, but I enjoy it all.... even though Touring is the best!

So, I guess under your definition, I have Three different personalities. I guess I am crazy!

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Matt, you didn't mention the Essex with the crazy fueling system that's on the tour. Ha. I'm different than the guy who would rather see a street rod than to see the car rust away in the woods. I just don't like representing something to the public that is a counterfiet of what is an authentic version of true history. Sorry, I really mean no harm, but that's how I feel. I have a Grand National Senior that I've driven on many, many tours. In fact, it's been about 25,000 miles since it was restored in 1981 and it still can win. Most people are afraid to do it because they're afraid they'll lose some of that high weight value. I don't care about the money, and I guess that's obvious since my motto seems to be "buy high, sell low". I just love the thrill of finding, buying, restoring and driving, but I want it to look like it was meant to look like when the factory designed it...period. But, in my 71 years I have found that people are going to continue to be people.

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Yes... The Essex...

Everybody should check out the Vintage Tour thread to see Wayne's "engineering?"... He beat me to posting photos of his handy work... I am still threatening to post some other photos of Wayne and his Essex. I will do so in time....

Earl, I seem to normally buy high and sell low so I know how that feels. I try to refrain from saying ugly things so I will try not to say much about modified cars. I will say that I agree with your sentiments and I also prefer them original or restored to original.

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