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I thought I would puke


Bhigdog

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I will probably never go to another NSRA event again with their 30 year deal,if I want to look at late 70s stuff I will attend the local cruise ins. Even though late 70s are over 30 years old I still consider them daily drivers

Did you ever stop to think that when the AACA was formed (1935), the majority of antiques in exisitance then were maybe 30 years old? Why is today so different.

I find the intolerance toward other hobbiests by some members of this club and forum to be very sad.

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I understand that but if I would ever attend the streetrod nationals again I dont want to look at post 49 vehicles,I can see all I want of the newer vehicles at the local shows.

Did you ever stop to think that when the AACA was formed (1935), the majority of antiques in exisitance then were maybe 30 years old? Why is today so different.

I find the intolerance toward other hobbiests by some members of this club and forum to be very sad.

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To TGRoadmaster, thanks for your comments earlier. You mention the BCA expanding their street rod membership; the same thing is happening with the Pontiac Oakland Club and I am on the verge of dropping out. The club officers indignantly deny it but it is obvious from the club magazine that street rods and drag racing are now their primary interest. There is now a splinter group of long time Pontiac Oakland members that started a new AACA chapter to cover those interested in authentic restoration and preservation.

As was said, it is thought that one must be more inclusive to grow and this is a problem with many car clubs. BCA and POCI look like two examples where the original mission is sacrificed for growth, but then the older, long time members are the ones who are alienated and leave, resulting in net shrinkage anyway. Apparently our street rod friendly readers like junkyardjeff even have similar issues with the NSRA and their new inclusion policy, who knew? I am glad the AACA has resisted this, and am glad that they resisted the vintage street rod issue a few years ago. I said at the time that the vintage race car people pushing this were a VERY limited few and would only open up a slippery slope of what to allow in a proposed street rod class. Note that I actually like 1950s era street rods, but the documentation of original feature cars would be a nightmare, "tribute" cars would be next, then pretty soon anything goes, I encourage Steve and company to not go down that road, it would end up a net loss. Thanks, Todd C

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..... As was said, it is thought that one must be more inclusive to grow and this is a problem with many car clubs. BCA and POCI look like two examples where the original mission is sacrificed for growth, but then the older, long time members are the ones who are alienated and leave, resulting in net shrinkage anyway. Apparently our street rod friendly readers like junkyardjeff even have similar issues with the NSRA and their new inclusion policy, who knew? I am glad the AACA has resisted this, and am glad that they resisted the vintage street rod issue a few years ago. I said at the time that the vintage race car people pushing this were a VERY limited few and would only open up a slippery slope of what to allow in a proposed street rod class. Note that I actually like 1950s era street rods, but the documentation of original feature cars would be a nightmare, "tribute" cars would be next, then pretty soon anything goes, I encourage Steve and company to not go down that road, it would end up a net loss. Thanks, Todd C

I agree. All of the sudden we have folks coming on here wanting to post photos of their modified vehicles, talk about them and even ask how to further modify them. The AACA's mission to to preserve vehicles as they could have come from the factory. They are not an open club for all varities of vehicles.

I am NOT against those vehicles or their owners. Bill and I go to open shows and street rod/hot rod/modified shows to see and enjoy the vehicles and talk to the owners.

What I am against is the AACA forums being taken over by folks that do not truly share our version of the hobby. Their version of the hobby is fine. We have long time members here that have those kinds of vehicles in addition to vehicles that meed the standards set by the AACA. They do not post photos of the ones that do not meet AACA standards or openly talk about them because it basically is against the rules to do so.

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I agree. All of the sudden we have folks coming on here wanting to post photos of their modified vehicles, talk about them and even ask how to further modify them. The AACA's mission to to preserve vehicles as they could have come from the factory. They are not an open club for all varities of vehicles. QUOTE]

Yup, looks that way Susan and that is not what the AACA is for. I do, however, think that lots of first time readers honestly do not realize that (and our recent use of thumbnails of modifed cars on the home page does not help!)

What I mean to say is that I think we get lots of casual car fans who's involvement in old cars is only at the local cruise night, not Hershey or AACA meets. They like old cars and maybe even have one, but they do not differentiate between authentic and modified, they just see an old car and want to join in the fun. Unfortunately their hometown old car friends are all about modifying and this person is unlikely to have any positive influences to keep it stock. They see the forum, ask a naive rookie question, and we can only hope a crusty old timer does not insult them and send them back to the "inclusive" modified crowd, never to return to stock again. We should be able to recognize a regular and a newcomer and be careful to be helpful. BUT we still need to emphasize what we are about and gently but firmly make it clear that we are not street rodders and there are other places to support that, not here.

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What I am against is the AACA forums being taken over by folks that do not truly share our version of the hobby. Their version of the hobby is fine. We have long time members here that have those kinds of vehicles in addition to vehicles that meed the standards set by the AACA. They do not post photos of the ones that do not meet AACA standards or openly talk about them because it basically is against the rules to do so.

Susan,

You are completely correct, and that position is obviously consistent with the intent of the organization (although it IS a slippery slope). When street rodders post questions in the various forums, they are usually ignored. Again, that is not only fine but appropriate for an AACA forum (though apparently there is no issue with discussing swapping a later model overdrive automatic into a 1960s vintage auto...).

I have to wonder why the anti-street rod segment thinks that it is necessary to continually start threads about "butchered cars", however. Again, these are not cars that were featured in anything connected to AACA nor were they brought up here except by the detractors.

As the stated mission of the AACA is preservation, precluding street rod discussions is appropriate. That should apply to ALL street rod discussions.

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I think I've seen that Cord at Ormand Beach in Florida. I certainly hope there is only ONE! It is disgusting to see these great old cars ruined and lost forever --- the Olds included. What can we do? Nothing really. Boycotting their cruise-in's doesn't really help, because they don't appreciate an original car anyway. We can try to keep from selling a car to one of them, but they lie and you never really know. I've already had that happen to me, he lied. Later I found out who he was and what he was really into. Fortunately, he never got around to it and sold it to a dealer in Orlando who sold it to somebody in Spain. I hate to think of it going out of the country, but if it stayed original it was worth it.

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I do know someone who has a Cord 4 door body that will end up the same way but its incomplete and would cost way more then its worth to put back original,at least it will live on and did not get crushed so dont get too upset when you see a modified vehicle as some could have been closed to being turned into crap coming from China.

I'm sure with a $95,000-$150,000 car somebody could afford to restore it back to original. I just have to believe that.

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I have to wonder why the anti-street rod segment thinks that it is necessary to continually start threads about "butchered cars", however. Again, these are not cars that were featured in anything connected to AACA nor were they brought up here except by the detractors.

As the stated mission of the AACA is preservation, precluding street rod discussions is appropriate. That should apply to ALL street rod discussions.

Agree 100%.

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I understand that but if I would ever attend the streetrod nationals again I dont want to look at post 49 vehicles,I can see all I want of the newer vehicles at the local shows.

And no one is forcing you to. Just walk on by.

I go to many shows where modern vehicles are being shown. Instead of moaning about the fact that they are there, I just ignore them. I don't even take photos of them, but I don't begrudge their right to be there if the show allows it.

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Since I started this thread let me clarify and yet again restate my reason for doing so. A rereading of my posts will show that at no time did I disparage "street rods" per se. And yes, I totally agree that someone can do whatever they want with a car they own. My post only expressed my revulsion at what was done to the two butchered (def: Butch-er. an unskilled or careless workman. Webster's 3rd international dictionary) cars I mentioned. As Dave made clear in his well expressed comments the post was not anti street rod.

I am not anti street rod. In fact when I was young and dumb I myself butchered two fine cars to make a personal statement, a 1954 Ford Vicky and a 1941 Merc convertable. Much like many of today's, shall we say "customizers", I swapped engines, nosed and decked, installed dual lake pipes, spinner hub caps, a custom interior, etc etc, all topped off with garish paint. It was only much later in life did I realize that the two fine cars I ruined to make my personal statement looked very much like everyone else's personal statement. It was merely a variation on a theme, much like todays "customs."

so to again re-re-state. I have nothing against street rods so why keep reading something into my post that is not there. Some folks seem spring loaded to the victim position. I would have been just as repulsed had those two fine cars been butchered for any other purpose. But Butchered they were and there just is no getting around that..............Bob

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..... My post only expressed my revulsion at what was done to the two butchered (def: Butch-er. an unskilled or careless workman. Webster's 3rd international dictionary) cars I mentioned. ..............Bob

And I for one understood that. And I feel the same way. I like to see a vehicle that looks classy. My mom was a wonderful artist in several mediums and styles and she knew how to put complimentary colors and designs together for a pleasing result. :) So I grew up around art most of my life. I have seen some BAD art in my life. :eek: And there are people that love BAD art. I don't happen to be one of them. So when I look at a vehicle that has been worked on in whatever style it was done, restored/modified/streed rodded/hot rodded, I want to see class. Not something that had the fruit bowl hurled at it and whatever stuck, stuck.

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I guess I am in the same boat as you in the AACA,you dont want to see hotrods in your shows and I dont want to see newer vehicles at NSRA events. I am beginning to stay away from the very large shows and attending the smaller ones,6500 plus are just too much to see in one day.

And no one is forcing you to. Just walk on by.

I go to many shows where modern vehicles are being shown. Instead of moaning about the fact that they are there, I just ignore them. I don't even take photos of them, but I don't begrudge their right to be there if the show allows it.

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Why?

Because some people want to do stupid things.

That's fine when they're fooling around in the middle of the night in their garage with a box of M-80s and an acetylene torch. Except for higher medical insurance premiums and deductibles (as things stand right now) it won't effect me or anyone else. Right now I have a good friend trying to find a decent post-war straight 8 Pontiac. It's been months now and he's having almost no luck at all, just one good lead that he was too late on. (@ Hershey there was one really nice 1951 HPOF car, period. None for sale.) If stock, once dirt-common cars like this are getting hard to find, what chance does the Hupmobile or Terraplane hopeful have (let alone a Willys or Marmon fan)? :confused:

Who's going to restore the last antique car?:confused:

Willful ignorance of a problem is not the same as addressing it.

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I'm curious. How does the AACA feel about factory customs or customs done for manufacturers, like show cars? Could Harley Earl's creations not appear on your show field? Would they not have a place?

I don't bash anyone for cutting up anything. However, a tear frequently comes to my eye on cruise night. What's with all the punched louvers? Speed holes?

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I see this issue from both sides. I like some street rods. But I like stock cars better. When I see rare cars hot roded I hope they were in such bad shape before,that it would have cost too much to restore.

But what did upset me was a article in Street Rodder about a year ago or so. Showing a fully hot roded 1937 Lincoln conv. In the article the owner talks about how he brought the car fully restored, and how the guy he brought it from had spent 5 years restoring it. So when he brought the car, he told the owner what a great job he did and how he had been looking for a stock Lincoln for years. Paid for the car and then drove it right to the hot rod shop to have it rodded. The article made it seem like he had pulled the wool over this guys eyes and gotten away with a car, that the owner would not have sold to him had he know what he was going to do with it.

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I'd like to see them on the show field, but I can't see them as a judged class. The louvered Hot Rods are just sporting a feature from days gone by when deck lids were louvered to allow air flow, the feature dates back to GP Bugatti and other race cars. :)

I'm curious. How does the AACA feel about factory customs or customs done for manufacturers, like show cars? Could Harley Earl's creations not appear on your show field? Would they not have a place?

I don't bash anyone for cutting up anything. However, a tear frequently comes to my eye on cruise night. What's with all the punched louvers? Speed holes?

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Remember this.... Just 'caus it's yours and you can do anything you want to with it, doesn't mean you should!!!...B

And if you do, commonsense says it may not be one of your better ideas to brag about it on a club's website that you know is devoted to the preservation of antique vehicles in stock form. Same commonsense mind-set applies with a purist posting on a website that they know is devoted to the cutting up and modifying of stock vehicles.

Two entirely different worlds and thought process in regards to who likes what in a vehicle. We can coexist but we don't have to do it in the same arena.

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This controversy has been going on as long as I have been in the hobby and that was shortly after cars were invented, well...not quite. Anyway, I don't mind seeing a well done street rod or traditional hot rod from time to time. I personally prefer stock, original or well restored cars. I do see a trend however and that is as hot rodders have developed more spendable income over the years they begin a project with the best car they can find. I know of several cars that I saw on the show field at Hershey a few years ago that are now high priced street rods. Just as said by others above, the owner has the right to do what ever he wants with his property. He could bury the car in the backyard if he chooses. However, I fear that at some point future generations will not be able to view and enjoy a bone stock car out on the road as the bulk will have small block Chevy's and mag wheels, except at a museum. For history sake I hope a few cars are spared.

Thank goodness for AACA's pure stock policy for judging. Lets hope no future board approves even the little modifications such as mag wheels, non-correct white wall widths, hidden A/C.

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I attended a swap meet a few years back where sat a circa 1934 Packard touring sedan in a candy apple colour and looking very well restored. On closed inspection it proved to be chopped and channelled. Bucket seats and center consule in a colour to match A few questions qualified a Cadillac power train. James Ward would have been proud to see the more current version of his car.

I am a bit of a purist on cars, 21 & 31 Packards as original BUT

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QUOTE: The way I look at it is if you take a vehicle from a junkyard or field and get it back on the road (rodded or restored) it has been preserved but taking a perfectly good vehicle and cutting it up is a totally different matter. UNQUOTE

Even when you street rod one of these, it's like re-writing history. It's getting to a point now that at cruise-in's even older people don't know or remember what a real car looks like. They actually think it came that way. It's so sad, I can hardly stand to go to an old car event of that type anymore. The problem is, here in Central Florida, there is hardly any other kind, so for the most part my cars sit in the garage, or go for a ride, until I can load them into a trailer and go to a real car show. One of the few is a wonderful venue once yearly in Lakeland called the Lake Mirror Classic and it's a joy to go to. Problem is, there are 51 other weekends in the year.

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I understand that but they have not been crushed and made into cheap junk coming from China and someone is available to enjoy it and it did not get destroyed,in a few years people might think they came that way but what you going to do about it since people are getting dumber.

QUOTE: The way I look at it is if you take a vehicle from a junkyard or field and get it back on the road (rodded or restored) it has been preserved but taking a perfectly good vehicle and cutting it up is a totally different matter. UNQUOTE

Even when you street rod one of these, it's like re-writing history. It's getting to a point now that at cruise-in's even older people don't know or remember what a real car looks like. They actually think it came that way. It's so sad, I can hardly stand to go to an old car event of that type anymore. The problem is, here in Central Florida, there is hardly any other kind, so for the most part my cars sit in the garage, or go for a ride, until I can load them into a trailer and go to a real car show. One of the few is a wonderful venue once yearly in Lakeland called the Lake Mirror Classic and it's a joy to go to. Problem is, there are 51 other weekends in the year.

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in a few years people might think they came that way but what you going to do about it since people are getting dumber.

JJeff,

That's precisely the reason that the job of preservationists is as important now as it has ever been...to educate (or re-educate) folks to the way cars (or other antiquities) were in their original state.

It's like the finders of the Dead Sea Scrolls took a look at what they'd found and decided "improve" upon them with, say, colorization or other "enhancements." I'm not really comparing the DSS to a '57 Buick or '34 Packard, but I hope you get the idea.

How many episodes of the Antiques Roadshow does one have to see where the value of "a thing" is a fraction of what it would be if left alone, unaltered? Cut or shorten the legs of a rare piece of 18th-century furniture (to make it fit in your dining room or guest bath), and, "poof," much of it's value is lost, irreplaceably. Because it no longer exists in its orignal context.

Restored cars don't exactly follow that rule, because before most of us were born, groups of people got together to ensure that future generations could enjoy, interpret, and drive the automotive history that was vanishing before their very eyes. Thus the clubs were born, with their members following rules and standards that continually adapt to the times. Take HPOF and DPC, for example. Or the Racing Class recently adopted; all historic vehicles with provenance (and continued certification) required for their inclusion.

Personally, I could see a custom like the Hirohata Merc or rods like the Lakers or important period one-off cars having a place on the show field. But Bubba's plastic rat rod T-bucket, and the '34 Buick Series 90 Victoria (with SMC-power, Mustang II front end, and GM B-body tilt wheel) need to go elsewhere.

Since I have the power to include/exclude neither, I'll stick to the rules (subject to change) and adhere to my core values, knowing that I won't have to avoid certain vehicle types at an AACA show, 'cause they won't be there in the first place. Happy that, with the thousands of shows (AACA, et al.) on a global scale, there are plenty of venues to satisfy my desires. And, thankful for a Forum such as this to seek out others with similar interests, content, noting that those values and desires are not mine alone.

Intolerance? I don't think so, but at the end of the day,

"Make it original (or restored to original), or make it go away."

TG

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I find it interesting that this topic mirrors what you would find when discussing politics. Two sides can and will not compromise and see no value in what the other might represent. In addition, passionate terms (i.e. "butchered") are used to describe what others have done.

I am not a rodder, though I own a '64 Studebaker Commander 4 door with a Chevy 305 and late model seats (only because it was cheap). I guess putting headers on my '74 CJ-5 25 years ago can be forgiven....

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I find it interesting that this topic mirrors what you would find when discussing politics. Two sides can and will not compromise and see no value in what the other might represent. In addition, passionate terms (i.e. "butchered") are used to describe what others have done.

I am not a rodder, though I own a '64 Studebaker Commander 4 door with a Chevy 305 and late model seats (only because it was cheap). I guess putting headers on my '74 CJ-5 25 years ago can be forgiven....

Again...........Read the posts. The automobiles in question were "butchered". Read the definition straight from Webster's. Nothing passionate about it. If I wanted passionate I would have used another definition, i.e. "to destroy without compunction in a wanton manner" instead of merely unskillfull.

But you are correct. All we're doing here is flapping our gums to no great effect. The flip side is that as long as everyone is respectfull it makes for an interesting thread, as you yourself said in your first sentence. So far, other than a few snarky early posts it's been very civil. I myself see no harm. It might even convince me to "rod" one of my cars. I'm thinking maybe a big blower protruding through the hood, louvers, velour buckets, and a really nice pink and green flame job. Yeah that's the ticket...............Bob

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I will be honest and say that non of my vehicles are 100 percent original,I dont have the money to buy a real nice one and end up with abandoned projects or vehicles that are very incomplete and I use what I can find to get it running. For example the 53 Olds 88 I had for years,I bought it with a blown motor and found a 59 dynamic 88 for 50 dollars so the motor and trans from the 59 went in the 53 and after going through the brakes it was on the road and then I found a under dash a/c out of a 62 and it went in too. The only one I had that was original was my 50 chrysler windsor 8 pass sedan since it came with a 50 parts car and my 37 chevy p/u did not have a motor and came up with a 57 235 cheap so guess what it went in and drove it for 8 years before adding a overdrive trans so I can go on the highway. I build the junkers I get to drive and since I do not have a trailer they have to be able to go at highway speeds so none of mine are 100 percent original,I like keeping the original motors but adapting modern trans and rear ends so I can enjoy them and I do know thats not what really is liked on here but I dont butcher them so they cant be returned to original if I sold it.

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My point is that terms such as "butchered" are ones of passion that are utilized to sway the opinions of others. While I have not seen the car nor the workmanship in question, it could have also been described as "altered" or "modified". However, my observation is that like politics, people tend to take sides and do not write from a neutral point of view but rather attempt to sway others to their point of view.

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Hi Gary, your ideas above on the politics of taking sides occurred to me during this discussion too, and I considered if we are not having a "two party" line of distinction here.

I think most of us could agree that in a Democrat/Republican disgreement both parties disagree but both think their opinion is the best for the country. They may think the other side is wrong, but generally not that the other side is being deliberately destructive. Speaking for myself I think the street rodder IS being destructive, and that he would often gleefully AGREE. We have all seen the popular T shirt "Anyone can restore a car, it takes a real man to cut one up." We also know the street rodder will lie to an old car seller knowing if he reveals his destructive intentions he will not acquire the car. Then the whole rationale seems to be to change as much as possible then brag about it, possibly to show what a "rebel" he is and how much he resists confirmity (as he creates a small block powered vehicle to impress others with similar cars).

It looks to me like it is considered a badge of honor to street rod a nice original car and then be as in-your-face as possible to those who would prefer authentic restoration and preservation. With that I do not know that we can see this as a harmless difference of opinion. So do both sides just co-exist? Of course. Do we become "tolerant"? I guess we can just hope that popular opinion swings our way again (unlikely) and make it known that authenticity is more rewarding to us. It is to me.

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Intransigence is pervasive in the U.S. today. It was recently made an almost admirable character feature in large parts of the country, and is becoming more so every day. At the very least it's seen by many as a reasonable substitute for strength of character.

Right now on another thread we have whole groups of people complaining about the terrible bias against American cars in the latest Consumer Reports survey, the one where the single most reliable (non-hybrid) car sold in America was found to be a Ford. Not only does every imaginable explanation of the process not stop the belly-aching, but a complete reversal in the results of the process goes unrecognized in order to continue it!

So now not only do you have to defend your position on any given question, you have defend against whatever extreme distortion of that position might arise. "Butchered", "death panels", "nazis", "furrin' cars"...., it's all the same.:(

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If ever a title from a thread should have been changed it is this one! Every time I see this I wonder how many new former guests view it and wonder "what the..." Somehow seeing the word puke is not all that conducive to what we have tried to do with having these forums.:( However, I do understand the concerns. Maybe ill would have been better than puke!:D

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to go off the deep end or someone to politicize the thread.

AACA stands firmly behind the preservation and restoration of vehicles from our history. We are one of a small group of clubs that have taken this stand. Other clubs are more inclusive, I am a member of some of those clubs as well. However, I totally believe in what we do and in the importance of our stance.

At one time I thought if you were a car nut, you were a car nut. I have come to see a huge amount of extremism in the car hobby in general. Whether it be the editor of a magazine who offers a "reward" for anyone who would turn a Duesenberg into a street rod or a person who is offended by someone who builds a rod out of new parts or thrashed car parts that nobody wants, it is a very skewed way of looking at things.

As another poster has said, this debate has gone on for decades, even at the very beginning of the hobby. We will never resolve it on this website but this forum should be mostly about antique cars. There are many great sites for the street rod and hot rod community.

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My point is that terms such as "butchered" are ones of passion that are utilized to sway the opinions of others. While I have not seen the car nor the workmanship in question, it could have also been described as "altered" or "modified".

Of course my use of the word "butchered" was chosen purposely. Not to sway anyone's opinion but to convey a sense of what was done to two particular beautiful automobiles. "Altered" or "modified" convey absolutely no sense of scale or degree. Butchered was/is a much more descriptive term. As far as using terms like quality challenged, visually deficient, improvement impaired or some other P.C. non-sense........Fugetaboutit........................Bob

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Actually I had second thoughts before I used the word "puke" in the thread title, Steve. It truly is a vulgarity. But I specifically chose to use it because it was used in context. Viewed in context I was only trying to convey my feelings at the moment. I think I succeeded.

And you are correct nothing will be decided by this thread. I never thought anything would be.

I just needed to vent, my wife was tired of hearing it and the dogs just didn't seem to understand.

But you must admit, Steve. The whole thread has been lively without any really nasty posts, has generated a lot of interest and opinions, and who knows it just may have altered a few minds to a better place. Isn't that what A healthy forum is all about?...........Bob

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I would of been nice if all of the lower priced cars of the 30s and 40s would of had overdrives as a option so then there would be no need to modify to drive at todays highway speeds,when the mid 50s came along then they all could be driven that fast.

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