Guest G Froelich Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) So I was changing out the PCV grommets and had to tear out the one that feeds into the intake manifold since it had become hardened and stuck to the metal. There was just one little dime-sized piece left inside the hole...but it got accidentally nudged and decided to fall in. My heart sank (along with my language). We tried fishing it out, vacuuming, tape on the end of a stick, and I think all we accomplished was to push it in further! The little tiny job (I think) has now become a monster and maybe impossible one for me--taking off the throttle body to look inside the intake, and if not there, taking the intake off and maybe even having to get down into the heads. Am I being anal and just let the engine cough it out or burn it up? Edited October 18, 2009 by G Froelich (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NEMO Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Tape some fuel line hose to the shop vaccume,to suck it on to the end,keep checking to see if you sucked it on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Richard D Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 I have heard of worse items going through a GM engine with no "apparent" damage but I would probably keep trying to get it out. The tube taped to a vacuum sounds like a good way to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G Froelich Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Here's a pic with the highlighted part that fell in. I've been vacuuming with a 1/4" vinyl line attached to a shop vac, but haven't picked anything up yet. I'll try other hoses I have around. The throttle body is a pain to take off! Especially the throttle cable bracket. Thanks for the suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjfranken Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Agreed, a nut I would worry about-maybe. The upper intake-sorry wrong year I think, the plenum. you so recently explored, may have a shape that will not allow the piece to rise up to the intake ports. I cannot find a pic of where the pcv hole is located, whether it is over a port or the intake cavity. Most intakes I have seen has the pvc port covered with a baffle of some sort...rent a video snake at Home Depot and look around the insides with that; it's about the size of a spark plug thread. Snap-On makes one much smaller and more costly-and better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill_Boro Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 How soft was the rubber? If it was not too hard, the worse that will happen is the rubber debris will hold a valve open slightly for a short peroid while it breaks down and passes through the combustion chamber in pieces as char. This could result in some popping or back firing until the valve "clears and seats". If the rubber is extremely hard, it could bend a valve but that is unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Be a little careful using an electric vacuum inside the intake where there may be fuel vapors present. Probably not a big problem with an injected engine but??? That small piece of hard rubber shouldn't cause any harm. It's not directly over the #2 intake port but is very close, so it may have dropped down the port onto the intake valve, or if the valve was open, into the cylinder. The clearances inside the cylinder are not very tight (this is a not interference engine) so the valves don't even come close to the pistons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G Froelich Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Many thanks for the guidance and encouragement during this ordeal. After having tried and failed to take even just the throttle body off the intake, I decided just to finish the PCV grommet replacement. Managed to push the crankcase grommet at the base right into the crankcase after I had seated it and was pushing the PCV valve in. AAARGH! But at least the vacuum worked there. I finally got everything in after starting the grommet then pushing the valve in and then fully seating the grommet. I know that the PCV is a tune-up standard, but damn I don't want to deal with those grommets for a while.Started the car up and almost immediately it began to smoke down in front of the catalytic converter. The smoke smelled like burning rubber, but on the light side. It idled rough and wanted to quit the first 10 minutes or so, but then settled to a nice 6-7K rpm idle for the next 15-20 minutes. Very little smell now, if any at all. Luckily the CC is just a year old, so it probably still has some life in it after swallowing that grommet piece.Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ekvh Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Not to put fear in, but if the rubber piece wedged in between the valve and held the valve open, wouldn't the piston slap the valve when it comes up on the next stroke? Maybe it will just crush it. I had the timing chain go once and the valves slapped the pistons several times before stopping. Luckily no holes in the pistons, but new heads and valves...ouch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Not to put fear in, but if the rubber piece wedged in between the valve and held the valve open, wouldn't the piston slap the valve when it comes up on the next stroke? Maybe it will just crush it. I had the timing chain go once and the valves slapped the pistons several times before stopping. Luckily no holes in the pistons, but new heads and valves...ouch.Did this valve contact occur on a stock 3800 engine? Valve lift is only a little over .4" and with the dished pistons, interference shouldn't occur. If it is possible, it would be good to know.:confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ekvh Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 2 seater: Perhaps it wasn't the same, but I thought they were. Aren't they interference engines. This incident happened to an 86 Olds. I thought they were the same, but I'm no expert. Does anyone else know if this is an interference engine? Mine is an 88. It would be nice to know that it wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Richard D Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I was told by several GM mechanics that the 3800 engine, including the vin "C" are not interference engines and even if the timing chain breaks there can be no contact between pistons and valves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I don't remember the exact dimensions, but when I rebuilt my engine with .050" taller pistons I checked it at that time. Valve lift is only in the low .400" range and if I remember correctly there is around .5" from the valve face to the piston (valve closed). It "should be" impossible for the valve to hit the piston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawja Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I can confirm that the 3800 is a non-interferance engine. Broke my timing chain on the last Reatta with no ill effect (to the engine at least). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ekvh Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Thanks, guys, that is a relief to me that it is a non-interference engine. There is no real way to check the timing chain without tearing it all down. When the miles get up there anything can happen. I know I asked before whether removing the belt and turning the the balancer back and forth could tell about how much slop there was, but some told me that valve springs could be giving the sensation of stopping the rotation and not the slop of the timing chain. I kind of hijacked some of this post, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 You could remove the cam position sensor so you can see the timing gear on the cam. Then turn the harmonic balancer back an forth to check how much slack there is in the timing chain before the cam starts to move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Seems like the topic may have changed a bit.Is their a procedure anyone can recommend for replacing the Rubber Grommet safely?Last time I had the intake manifold gaskets I had mine replaced.This seems to be a common problem thus good ideas would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjfranken Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) Lots (2) of hooks and picks, and tweezers. Edited October 21, 2009 by rjfranken (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I've done this on three different 3800's. The grommet split and fell inside. I have not had a problem with any of them. I have never taken the intake manifold off one of these engines so I don't know where the pieces could end up. All I know is it hasn't been an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G Froelich Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I'd like to hear especially about strategies to get the crankcase grommet and valve in together (since it seems that you can't just put them in separately w/o having the pcv valve push the grommet into the crankcase). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drake Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 When I changed the PCV valve on mine, I put a light coating of white lithium grease on both stems of the PCV valve. Pushed right in without difficulty. The grease also helps seal the stems if the grommets are old and hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G Froelich Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Update. Wondering what this might mean: definitely running rich at idle ("0" for O2 cross counts, "155" fuel integrator, "150" block learning mode, rich smelling exhaust), but fine while giving it gas. It wasn't doing this before I changed out the PCV valve and grommets, so it must have something to do with the grommet piece that fell in. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 That sounds typical for idle. It is the cruse numbers that are important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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