Avanti R2, 1963, refresh

[Guest Gary Hearn]

Curt,

I think all of the Avanti's I have seen have the wood grain dash. This is a picture of the one in my '64 R2 4 speed car, it is serial number 5400 so it was at the very end of production.

Gary

[unimogjohn]

It is Wednesday, Nov. 4th. It is great to see others add their knowledge and interest. Keep them coming.

Today was a cold day, 25 degrees this morning, so did not get out until about 10 and it was only 33 then. It did warm up to 50 degrees by mid afternoon.

Got the new brake line for the Unimog so put that it as we have to get her stopping again as we have to pick up hay for the llamas in a couple of days. We get two big rounds in the truck. Tomorrow, if it does not rain, I will bleed the brakes.

The Avanti, I really worked on her from about noon until four. Kind of a short day, but seemed to get a lot of little things done.

Front shocks, removed the one remaining and put on the two new shocks. Done.

Bled the rear brakes, and found something very interesting, a smashed line. But it bled out, but will replace the line. The other brake bled out OK too. I now have a firm pedal, so I have brakes, and can probably stop. I am going to check front pads tomorrow, and then head down to a friend who is restoring an Avanti R2, a frame off job. He is a master and is doing all the work, except painting himself. He told me that he has three is various barns around the area. Oh, he has the puller for the rear drums.

Decided to check the timing. After reading the manual it says that the timing should be 4 degrees at 750 rpm and 24 at 1600 for the supercharged engine. Mine is currently set at 8 degrees at 750 rpm, and does advance to 24 degrees at 1600 rpm. Just got too dark and cold, so decided not to check the points. Will do that another day.

Exhaust. Now that the rear end is hanging down the tail pipe went over the axles easily. However, the "resonator delete" section on the car now is shorter than the SS one I just bought, so decided to remove the old ones from the car. Got one off after banging and bending metal. Glad the muffler and pipe were almost new. Did a test fitting of the new SS sections and they look like they will fit fine. Will do the other side over the next day or so.

I am done for the day. I did start and run the car several times today. It it great to hear her run.

Thanks everyone for the comments and suggestions.

Here are a couple of pics of the smashed line and of the Unimog and hay.

[Curti]

Gary,

I think all of the Avanti's I have seen have the wood grain dash. This is a picture of the one in my '64 R2 4 speed car, it is serial number 5400 so it was at the very end of production

Unimogjohn's 63 R2 has a tan dash and another fellow I know has a tan dash as well. Neither car has a wood grain steering wheel. Wood grain dash with a wood grain wheel...???

[unimogjohn]

It's Thursday, Nov. 5th.

Was going to get an early start, but got a call that an Avanti needed a trailer ride to the paint shop. So hooked up the trailer, picked up the car, and delivered her to the shop. She is going to be painted Avanti Maroon, a 1964 color. The engine, transmission, glass and interior are all out, so she looks just a little sad. But at least I did have the opportunity to see how an Avanti is put together. Also borrowed the brake drum puller so will be able to check out the rear brakes in the next couple of days.

Well I got home at noon and went right to work on the exhaust. Got the other resonator delete pipe out with a lot of prying, banging and bending. Only got one smashed finger in the process, but she finally came out.

I must say that the SS exhaust from Canada is an excellent fit. I just loosely put everything together in their various holding points, adjusted the pipes to make sure that they were positioned correctly, and tightened everything down. They look good. Was going to start the car to see how it sounds, but the battery is dead, again. I have some electrical issue that is draining the battery. Will leave the engine start to tomorrow as it is starting to rain and getting dark.

I was surprised to see that a cutting torch was used to make the holes in the frame larger to fit the pipes sometime in the past. Would they have done this at the factory? You can see what I mean in a couple of the pics.

Tomorrow going into the engine bay and going to service and lube the idler system for the supercharger. Also going to put on the new rubber belts for the power steering and alternator. Also going to power wash the suspension pieces under the engine to get them free of all the old grease, dirt and oil. After that is done I can start cleaning and detailing the engine bay. It is going to be clean, not all painted up. I like a car to look original.

After pricing the individual pieces of brake line I decided to purchase a complete kit for the Avanti in SS as a much better value. Purchased from Inline Tube - Preformed Stainless & OEM Brake Line Sets out of MI. for under $200.

[ErnieR]

In June of 1963 the "tenite" panels on dash and console were phased in along with the wood wheel. The possibility exists of a wood wheel car with the painted dash and console.

The Avanti gas tank is higher than the fuel pump so a diaphragm break in the fuel pump will allow gas to seep into the enging. Keeping fuel lines in good shape is very important as the tank will drain itself dry through a crack or loose fitting.

If your timing will not advance as the engine rpm is increased you probably have frozen centrifugal advance weights. It's common for the Prestolite distributor to have worn or frozen weights. The R2 engine doesn't like a lot of timing under boost but needs advance for low end pull. That's why the full 24 centrifugal is all in at such low RPM. You can experiment with timing but optimum isn't more than a few degrees above and in some cases higher doesn't help at all.

The return fuel line is mainly there for high heat conditions. It allows hot fuel and vapors a place to go. Underhood temps on Avantis are very high.

The extra line to the top of the fuel pump from the supercharger is a way to increase fuel pressure with boost.

I believe your frame hole was put there by a frustrated installer. There's little room for adjustment under there. A pipe that's bent a little off or a hanger that's a little week will allow the exhaust to rattle easily against the frame.

There are plastic bushings on the blower idler at the pivot point that disintegrate. Might as well check them while you're down there. Also make sure you get a matched set of belts and the right width. The narrow more common belt will be more prone to slippage than the wider correct belt.

The numbers on my belts won't work for you because I have high RPM pulleys but the way they sit in the groove is correct.

ErnieR

[unimogjohn]

Ernie, it says in the workshop manual to oil the plastic sleeves, what should I use? I was planning to use just standard motor oil.

Yes, I have all new belts to include two matching for the supercharger. I bought them from a Avanti/Studebaker supplier.

[Guest Gary Hearn]

Unimogjohn's 63 R2 has a tan dash and another fellow I know has a tan dash as well. Neither car has a wood grain steering wheel. Wood grain dash with a wood grain wheel...???

Curt,

I think I had a brain fart and was thinking of the wood grain in GT Hawks. I went downstairs and found a fawn colored Avanti steering wheel as well as a tan dash overlay. Sometimes it helps to check before writing...

Gary

[ErnieR]

Engine oil is fine...most times anything near the front of a Stude motor remains lubed from oil leaks so you shouldn't have to do it more than once.

ErnieR

[R W Burgess]

...........The return fuel line is mainly there for high heat conditions. It allows hot fuel and vapors a place to go. Underhood temps on Avantis are very high.......

Thanks, I was curious!

[unimogjohn]

I have had several requests for information on the Avanti that I am helping moving around. I get progress pictures from time to time so will post them as I get them.

The car is a R2, originally gold, but now going to Avanti Maroon. Has four speed tranny. Owner has just about completed the engine, car is in for paint, transmission is done. He has two others that will be restored at some point. Has owned this one since the 70s. He has many, many old cars, most from the teens and twentys. He is a restoration master.

So if you are following this thread, you will get two Avantis to follow. I will keep them separate as much as I can.

[unimogjohn]

Here are a few more pics of the Avanti under restoration. This is how it looks today.

[Curti]

The Avanti gas tank is higher than the fuel pump so a diaphragm break in the fuel pump will allow gas to seep into the enging. Keeping fuel lines in good shape is very important as the tank will drain itself dry through a crack or loose fitting.

I never suspected the fuel pump having a broken diaphram. I thought there was some kind of defective check valve or something. The car has never leaked gas or suffered from a lack of performance. live and learn. Where is a good place to get a FP kit.

[unimogjohn]

Curt, Studebaker Intl has the kits for $60. Page 160 of their catalog. Part number 1558925. They also list a fuel pump for $160, Page 160 of their catalog, part number 1557015 for the R2, and $156.50, part number 1557213 for the R1. Studebaker Auto Parts @ Studebaker International

[unimogjohn]

It is Friday, November 6th.

A cold, but productive day. I do not like working in the cold especially when it is in the low 40s, but it is suppose to be back in the 60s for the next couple of days.

I pressure washed again, still need to do it at least one more time as I continue to find big gobs of grease and dirt that I did not get or see previously. Really starting to sparkle.

I did take off the power steering and alternator belts and replaced them. The power steering pump does have significant play in it, but is not leaking and seems to be OK. I know I have some part leaking as I can see the little puddle of cherry juice on the ground. Just another thing to work on at some point.

I also took a look at the bad patches of paint on the back deck and top of the car. I took some heavy duty rubbing compound and my polisher, and decided to see if I could get some of it off. It looks like the previous owner had something over the car that actually ate into the paint. The pics below will show what it looked like, and another couple that show what it looked like after a couple of hours of polishing away. It did not completely come out, but with another hour or so, it just may.

Also took a video of the car running with its new tail pipes. A bit of smoke, but was just after start up and it was cold. The car is running a bit rich.

Tomorrow I do plan to take off the supercharger idler pulley, just ran out of time today. Also will make the first attempt at removing the rear drums. As a note, I still have a firm brake pedal so the bleeding was successful and there are no leaks in the system.

[Curti]

Curt, Studebaker Intl has the kits for $60. Page 160 of their catalog. Part number 1558925. They also list a fuel pump for $160, Page 160 of their catalog, part number 1557015 for the R2, and $156.50, part number 1557213 for the R1. Studebaker Auto Parts @ Studebaker International

Thanks John, I'll buy my wife the kit for Christmas. Yours truly will be installing it! I looked in the caralog for the cool sediment bowl but didn't see one. Where would I find one of those with the return line?

I checked out your YouTube video , You should have given it a little juice when the mic was down by the pipes.

[unimogjohn]

Curt, I do not know if the sediment bowl is correct for the my Avanti. In my original workshop manual, tune up section, page five; it specifically talks about replacing the in-line fuel filter (not the glass bowl filter). In the engine section, page 3, figure 2, it has a picture of the R2 engine and it clearly shows the metal in line filter cannister.

I guess it is up to you to decide what is correct for your car. Maybe the R1 has the glass filter. I am going to go with the factory picture and use the cannister when I am satisfied that my fuel system is clean.

[unimogjohn]

It is Saturday, Nov. 7th.

Crack, it made me jump! Boy, that is quite a jolt when the rear drums give up. Got both drums off. Dirty, but not too bad. Cylinders do not look like they are leaking at least through the dust boots. They are going to be redone/replaced. The shoes are at the end of their life, no problem, was going to replace them too. The drums look very good, no scoring or lip on the end. Will measure them to see if they are still serviceable.

Also took off the idler pulley system. The little plastic bushing need to be replaced, one was actually worn through. The bottom one had some rust as well.

That is about it for today. Oh, I did get an email that the brake line kit had shipped and would be here on Monday/Tuesday.

[unimogjohn]

It is Sunday, Nov. 8th; and a real nice day, in the 70s.

Worked on the front brakes most of the day. Planned to take the calipers, pads, etc off for an inspection and possible re-use. Well, the calipers were frozen, pads broken off of their backing plates, hoses and pipes rusted, etc. The two of the calipers are frozen and will not retract.

So after careful thought and looking at my wallet, I have decided to go with the Jim Turner/Turner Engineering disc brake conversion in the front, and keep my drum brakes in the rear. Hopefully I can sell some of my used stuff on ebay to re-coup some of the costs.

Have ordered everything to complete the brake job now so just have to wait for parts to show up. Also decided to order the two transmission to radiator hoses that go to the transmission. I also ordered new plastic bushing for the idler arm system.

Hopefully, this is the last of the major purchases to get the old girl back on the road. I am way over budget right now, but I will have a good reliable and safe car to drive.

Here are pics of the calipers from the left side, the right side was just as bad.

Edited November 8, 2009 by unimogjohn
changed Dave to Jim (see edit history)

[ErnieR]

Those are some foul looking calipers! You will be very happy with the Turner brake Conversion.

Dave Thiebault has stainless sleeved rear wheel cylinders.

ErnieR

[Guest Gary Hearn]

FYI, it is Jim Turner who sells the disc brake conversions.

[ErnieR]

"Thanks John, I'll buy my wife the kit for Christmas. Yours truly will be installing it! I looked in the caralog for the cool sediment bowl but didn't see one. Where would I find one of those with the return line?"

There's a bowl on ebay right now but they aren't cheap. Not all Avantis had them in fact I think it was a late production change.

An Avanti with an in-line can style filter has a fuel return metered through a fitting at the fuel pump. The output to the filter goes straight up at 90 degrees to the pump and the return exits straight out. I'm not sure why the change was made and I think it was only on the R2's, maybe a fuel pressure issue since the return fitting was installed in the output hole on the pump. I ran my car for years without a return at all with no adverse effects.

ErnieR

Edited November 8, 2009 by ErnieR (see edit history)

[unimogjohn]

It is Monday, November 9th. Brake Day!

Spent the day working on both the rear and front brakes. Took off everything that could come off in preparation for the rebuild of the rears and new Turner system in the front.

The rear cylinders looked pretty bad at first. Both had frozen pistons, so it had been many years since they actually did anything. But with a little Kroil to loosen things up, I was able to lightly pound out the pistons. The insides do not look bad, but will need a honing. Then I will see if they will have to be replaced. I have done many, many brake cylinders and never had a failure or leakage.

Below you will find the pictures of the brakes, cylinders, etc.

I also had some time to do some rust and crud removal on the inside of the drums, they cleaned up just fine.

All in all, a very good day. However, no parts arrived today for the first time in about a month. Also did a total of hours spent so far, 154, not including the 48 hours getting the car.

Tomorrow, some painting with Eastwood's black rust preventative/incapuslator. Going to do everything that is metal under the car.

[unimogjohn]

It is Tuesday, Nov. 10th. Fire! Yes, I said fire. Saw Dan Skidmore's ad for radio repair in Turning Wheels so decided to send him a note about my non-working AM radio. He told me the approximate cost to repair, so decided to pull the radio and speaker and send it to home.

The removal was not that bad, I did remove both right and left side panels for access. No one told me that there was a screw under the dash for a little brackets that holds the back. But it only took a couple of minutes to figure it out, and with that done it came right out. Took out the speaker also to send to Dan.

After I got the radio out I decided to look around with a light (as long as I was in a contorted position with my feet over the passenger front seat. I happened to glance at the main wiring harness and to my surprise there was a bare wire hanging down. Turns out that it was/is the main power wire and about five or six inches is fried. I do not think that it is alive, as I can see where some non-factory wire has been run. But it must have scared someone to death at some point in the past.

So now I am going to pull the instrumental cluster and see what is going on in that wire bundle to see if there is any more damage. I can see lights pulled out of the cluster too, and some odd home made wiring too. Will report late on what I find. I just hope that the red primary wire was bypassed, will check that this afternoon with my meter. Right now I have the battery disconnected.

So the radio and speaker are heading off for repair tonight.

Alice and I have also been painting, painting, painting. Starting to look good under the car. We hope to have most of the underside done today as it is suppose to rain for the next couple of days and be much cooler. Tomorrow we are off to Philly to see the Lady Diana exhibit, so we will be gone all day.

Here are some pics of today's work including the burned wires.

I also got a call from Jim Turner that the brake kit was shipping today, and would be here before the weekend.

[ErnieR]

The dash is solid behind the fascia so you won't gain access.

Pulling the dash itself is not difficult but removing the seats for access makes it a whole lot easier. However, the seat bolts usually open up another can of worms.

ErnieR

[unimogjohn]

It is still Tuesday. Thanks Ernie for the info.

Since Alice is under the car painting away I decided to see how bad the wire fire damage is. It is extensive. At some point in the past they had a hot short and burned up part of the wiring, looks like they put in a patch, and it hot shorted out too, and then they by-passed a couple of wires. However, some of the exposed wires are still hot. Started tracing and cutting back the black tape and found more melted and burned wiring, and other wires completely burned off. This was on the engine side of the firewall, the wiring on the inside of the car looks worse, all fused together, I will take a look at that in a couple of days. This will not be an easy patch job. Looks like I have a big wiring job in my future as I really have no other choice but to replace all the main wiring harness.

If anyone knows of a source please let me know.

Here are some more pics of the outside and inside.

[keiser31]

Try Rhode Island Wiring Services, Inc.

[ErnieR]

It's been years since I replaced mine and at the time the wait to have a new one made up was months, with no promises!

I bought a used but excellent harness from an SDC member and all is good for 10+ years now.

I'm very glad you averted what could have been a real disaster.

ErnieR

[Curti]

I would recomend Rhode Island Wire as well. I use them for all of my Auburns. They also did a 59 Buick harness for me. One really good thing about their wiring is it is not flamible. It is a new space age material that will smoke and stink, but will not burst into flame. Winter time is coming, so what is the difference if your car is laid up for a while. Personally, I would not try to repair the old harness.

[keiser31]

I would not try to repair the old wiring, either.

[unimogjohn]

It is still Tuesday, found out that Studebaker International has the harness from the dash forward, just what I need. The cost is about $470 with a lead time of 2 to 6 weeks.

We are going to Reedsville, PA on the 20th for the regional Studebaker swap/flea/show/meet. We will see what we can pick up there, before we bite the bullet and order a new one. We will not be on the road by then anyway. I will take the time to separate and repair the old wire as best I can so at least there will be no chance of shorting or fire. I will also always disconnect the battery until the wiring is replaced.

[keiser31]

By the looks of the wiring, someone bunched (taped) them all together after they taped over all of the splices......don't do that.

[unimogjohn]

Keister, yes they did. I figure that this was the first repair, then it shorted again, and they ran some new wire, but more wire melted than they thought and shorted out more stuff. Will be very careful on the short term corrections I will make. I am pulling out all the stuff they put in so I have a stock harness to start with. My biggest concern right now is the line that is hot just dangling there. On Thursday or Friday will pull the instrument panel to see if I can get at the harness without working under the dash. Figure my meter will be getting a work out.

[Guest stude8]

Sometime back you commented about an engine miss fire and I located an example I kept of a worst case advance weight from a Studebaker Prestolite distributor to demonstrate what happens over time inside these distributors. Without periodic tear down and lubrication the laminated steel advance weights wear to the point of self destruction because they are under constant outward thrust and eventually pull away from the pivot shaft they attach to on the distributor rotor shaft. They are beneath the breaker plate so can't be seen until the breaker plate is removed.

When they get as bad as the example the engine idle will be corrupted and acceloration will be very erratic. A good improvement is to substitute 1970's vintage Chrysler Autolite weights that are solid cast Bronze and almost never wear out.

Stude8

[Guest baproho]

Great info! Really informative. It is helpful for me.

Yaaa... I am here to share with you. Great info!!!

[unimogjohn]

It is Thursday, Nov. 12th. Yesterday I was not able to do anything. We went by train from Washington D.C. to Philadelphia and back to see the Lady Diana Exhibit. It was a fun trip.

But today the weather turned bad. Temperature was 38 degrees all day and the wind is blowing 30 to 40 mph. The trees are singing.

But I was able to work in the garage and clean up the rear brake components. So they are all ready to reassemble when it warms up. Even cleaned up the little shoe adjusters to make sure they were clean, working, and ready to put back on.

New parts also came in today. I received new rear brake shoes, rebuild kits for the cylinders, plastic sleeves for the idler system, and the new SS brake lines for the entire car. I am expecting the new front brake system to come in tomorrow also.

So now I have lots of parts to go back on the car. It is nice to turn the corner from disassembly to assembly.

No word yet on the supercharger rebuild, but that right now is a minor issue. I can certainly wait for that.

I also was able to find a NOS wiring harness. We are discussing price, but pretty sure that I will get it.

We have decided to go to Reedsville, PA on Saturday, Nov. 21st to possibly pick up some good deals on parts. Should be fun.

[Guest Gary Hearn]

John,

You may want to come to Reedsville on Friday to find the best deals. I go up Thursday afternoon so I will be there early on Friday and typically leave around noon on Saturday.

Gary

[unimogjohn]

Gary, thanks, we just changed our plans to Friday. See you there.

[Guest Gary Hearn]

If you are planning to spend the night, be sure to make reservations now. It is worth sticking around on Friday evening to get a tour of Max Corkin's shop and to hear his band play (and the beer isn't bad either).

[unimogjohn]

It is Friday, November 13th. Parts, parts, and more parts.

Yesterday we got in the brake lines, rear and front brakes, etc, etc. The Jim Turner kit came in two boxes for a total weight of 78lbs. Had to get a wheel barrel to get them up the hill. The kit looks to be very complete. The hardware looks to be very professionally done and coated against rust, etc. Jim says some brake fluid and wheel bearing grease is all you need. His literature also says that you need four hours to do a change over, so we will see.

Spent this morning honing and rebuilding the rear brake cylinders, both came out just fine, neither had any pitting. Reassembled them, and they are now ready to go on the car.

Also spent a hour or so on the idler system. Pulled the final plastic bushing, cleaned and oiled everything, and took a wire wheel to the pulley. The main bushing had lots of rust and was run dry, so took my time to clean out all the rust and dry oil. Hopefully, the system will go back on the car tomorrow.

Tomorrow I plan to replace the transmission to radiator coolant lines, the rear brakes and new tubing. Sunday, the plan is to mount the new front brake kit and tubes. Monday should complete the brake system with the installation of the remaining tubes that go front to back. Then we will be able to bleed the system. If all goes well we will be able to put on the wheels with new tires and test out the braking system.

We also got the production build record for our car from the Studebaker National Museum in today's mail. Since our engine is painted red rather than black I thought the engine might be a replacement. I was delighted to find out that she still has her original engine. She had a final assembly date of January 8, 1963.

We have had 48 hours of wind and rain, hopefully it will be nice over the next couple of days, and we can get a lot accomplished on the car.

Edited November 13, 2009 by unimogjohn
added Jim Turner kit info (see edit history)

[unimogjohn]

It is Saturday, November 14th. Well today I thought it would be the day when I turned the corner from taking things apart versus putting things back on. I was partially successful.

Started the day by reading the installation instructions of the Turner brake system, that is novel for me as I usually rip into something and then ask questions later. Well, it turns out that you have to remove the dust shield so I did that first. Then I found out that you have to heat up a couple of collars that go over the spindle to form a new seal surface for the rotors. Decided that it was going to be a Sunday or Monday project. But I did take the opportunity to clean and degrease the spindle and other close by parts. I also greased everything at every fitting I could find. Lots of water and gunk came out and some rusty stuff too; I used two tubes of grease to make sure everything had fresh grease.

Then I decided I better tackle the rear brakes. First I installed the two new SS brakes tubes, they went on find with just a little bending. Then installed the rebuilt cylinders and put on the brake shoes themselves. Everything was going great, and then ..............

I could not get the drums on either side, they would not fit over the shoes, and the shoes were all the way retracted. Took everything off again, checked everything, put it back on, no go, got out the maintenance manual, looks good, no go....................

After four hours of messing around I think I figured out what is going on. What do you do when the car has no brakes, you use the emergency brake. So the previous owner decided to adjust the emergency brake to the max. So tomorrow I will attempt to loosen the cables and allow the brake shoes to retract so they fit inside the drum.

Done for the day, a bit frustrating with the brakes, but at least I think I have it figured out.

Sunday will be another brake day, replacing brake tubing and then tackle the front brakes. Also will see if I can brake loose the transmission coolant lines. You can see the nick in one of the lines. I am sure they are original so they need to be replaced.