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Is this the end of Buick or the start of a new Buick?


Reatta Man

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Guest Redwind89

Back in May I got 27mpg in my 89 T-type with 207k on it. Just this weekend I got 32 mph in my 03 Regal with 62k and the air running the whole time, so for them to start putting v-4's in Buick to get better mpg and attract younger buyers is crazy. How about building a car that appeals to them, not a smaller engine. i think that the Enclave and the new Lacrosse is a small step in the right way. How about building the Velitte, back in 2005 at the National you couldnt get near that car cause of all the people around it including younger people between the ages of 10-50 saying that if GM build it they would try to own one. Another good idea is to build the new Regal just as is. My two cents as one of the young guys at 30.

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Guest El_Diablo

Maybe I'm just too European (I'm from Germany), but why should a V4 the end of Buick? All my cars had V4 engines, yet and my actual car is a BMW 320i with a 2liter V4 with 150 horsepower. Its 2,5years old now and driving fine - never had a problem. Over 60% of all passenger cars in Germany are V4s and most car companys in Germany weren't in need of being run by the government. ;-)

V4s aren't that bad, but environmental things still seem to be a point that cannot be sold in the USA. BMW is offering some 3 series sedans (not mentioning awd models) with automatic trans:

bmw_ger_usa.jpg

All models with basic equippment.

BMW has a pretty good marketing and sales department. Looks like the Americans aren't (or wasn't in the last years) interested in V4 with bigger MPG. If Buick is considering to introduce models with V4 engines it might take at least a year until they have it done. A V4 with a MPG of over 30? Standard since over 10 years in Europe. I guess in this segment, Buick and GM is 6-8 years behind the established brands of like Toyota, Volkswagen, Ford Europe, BMW, PSA, Renault, Opel,...

AND: Europeans pay about 15,000 to 20,000 USD more for the same car. Its like this: For a 3series BMW in Germany you get 1 BMW 3series in the USA plus a Dodge Challenger SRT8 for free. You guys live in the automobile heaven and haven't noticed it yet.

Edited by El_Diablo (see edit history)
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Guest Bob Call

I think that as the "car czar" exercises more and more control over GM you will see Buick and GMC divisions disappears in a few short years leaving only Chevy and Cadillac.

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Two other things I don't like about the new La Crosse: the trunk is just a little over 12 cubic feet in capacity (over four cubic feet smaller than a VW Jetta) and, like most other new cars (thanks Chrysler 300!), it has an extremely high beltline and very shallow windows which make you feel like you're in a well and obstruct your visibility.

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Maybe I'm just too European (I'm from Germany), but why should a V4 the end of Buick?
There is a mindset among older Americans that little cars are bad cars. For generations here, since the advent of the automobile really, the manufacturers here have made certain that their smaller offerings were of poorer quality than the bigger (and more profitable) models. The stories abound regarding Pinto/Vega/Corvair/Omni/etc. assembly and design inferiorities, including some that are well known to be deliberate. This has been especially true of GM's offerings.

Car companies like BMW and Honda (which are careful to put their best foot forward in every product no matter how small) are often shunned as "foreign", and are therefore their virtues are unknown to many. There are people reading this forum today who will no doubt refuse to believe that (for instance) a Toyota Yaris is as well made as a Toyota Avalon. " GM's not doing it that way, so it can't be."

It really is cultural. You'll notice that many here will post how their car gets 30 mpg, completely ignoring the fact that they're comparing their highway mileage to city and/or combined mileage for future models. The fact is that for most of the last 10 years GM's V6 and V8 engines usually get the worst mileage in their respective categories. Almost everything gets 30 mpg on the highway these days (except trucks).

It will take a few more generations here here to get rid of this idea. Many people who've logically believed all their lives that "small is bad" are probably too old now to change, no matter what massive oil shortages and climate change may do.

I've been saying for more than a decade on this forum that Buick's product line should mirror BMW's. A Buick-level (top) quality 4 cylinder sedan/coupe/wagon line would be a huge seller for GM. Nobody's embarrassed to drive a 318i or Acura, why should a Buick version be any different?

So far instead we get Daewoo-built "Chevys" and a limited range of Chevy Cobalts in that size category.

Any change from the past is a step toward saving GM and Buick. Gussying-up the next gas-guzzling land barge and calling it a Roadmaster won't be it.

Edited by Dave@Moon (see edit history)
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Just taking a shot at predicting the future. I'm certain that within a short time period we will see the end of all separate GM models and Divisions across the board, and we will witness a GM Buick, GM Chevrolet, GM Cadillac, and even a GM Pontiac. Of course there will probably be a GM Corvette, and a GM Truck too. Each car will be the best seller from the different Divisions but the model names will be dropped.

If this is right, the GM Cadillac will be Luxury sport V8, The GM Chevrolet will be an entry line vehicle with some format of a 4 cylinder, The GM Buick will be a mid sized luxury wannabe, with some format of six cylinder, and the GM Pontiac will be a V8, probably an entry line sport model. The GM Corvette will be the cash cow. The GM Truck may be the only line with two vehicles, a pickup and a mini SUV. GMC will also continue as a separate Division specializing in commercial truck applications.

Whew, now I need a beer. :D

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Guest El_Diablo
El Diablo, Don't you mean an I-4 instead of a V-4?

Yes, sorry for the mistake. But I don't car whats under the hood, if it has good power and needs as little fuel (whatever "fuel" means in the future) as possible. I don't look very often under the hood of my BMW, there is nothing I can fix myself - and I can see the status of oil, other fluids, brakes, etc. in the car computer - no need to open the hood.

It wasn't Buicks end when they introduced a full steel estate wagon or a two seater, and it won't Buicks end if they put a model with 4 cylinder engines on the market. Most people could live with 150-170 horsepower. My car with a 2 liter I4 has 150 horsepower and needs about 9 sec up to 62,5 mph (100 km/h). Vmax is 140.6 mph (225 km/h) and when I visit my parents I usually drive 180-200 km/h (~125 mph) - on our open highways. Why do Americans need a 300 hp car when there is a speed limit of 80/75/70 mph?

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Putting a V-4 into an old man's car is not going to attract younger buyers. And many older buyers don't like the idea of a 4 cylinder in their Buick. So I do not see how this is going to increase Buick's sales in the U.S. What they need to do is build something that younger buyers want to buy. Look how the Chrysler 300 attracted people into showrooms when it was first brought out in 2004. Look how the Challenger and Camaro are attracting attention. Buick has nothing to attract anyone. If they simply offer the same type of car as foreign mfrs., people can just buy the foreign ones. They need to build something to attract people specifically to Buick the way the Regal GNX did in the 1980's and Chrysler 300 did for Chrysler recently.

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There is a mindset among older Americans that little cars are bad cars.

Dave, I agree with you that the mindset of small=bad (cheaply made, poor quality, etc.) isn't always true, and many car companies have made good small cars.

But, small IS bad when it comes to safety. So, as long as there is a tidal wave of trucks, SUVs, semi-tractor trailer rigs on the road, I don't think smaller is the solution to selling cars. Add to that the teenagers texting while driving and the odds against you in a small car get even worse.

Rather than GM put a 4-banger in a Buick, I would MUCH, MUCH rather have a state-of-the-art hybrid system available in a luxurious, safe Buick. Unfortunately, my only domestic choice is the Mercury Milan. (The Chevy Malibu hybrid is a joke with its' 5 HP electric engine.) A Lacrosse hybrid would probably be a worthy competitor to the Milan, and the Camry hybrid. Ironically, the only way it seems GM could do that at this point is to buy a license from Toyota for their second or third generation system....

So, yes, we could be looking at a future 200-250 HP four-cylinder engine from GM, but with their track record of putting engines on the street that still have major problems in them, I don't trust them, and I consider myself to be a GM enthusiast. And, I hate to see the Buick brand tarnished by ANY micro-engine as the solution to good mileage.

Joe

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I didn't register for the WSJ article, but here are a few points to ponder?

For those who say a 4 cylinder won't attract younger buyers, aren't most tuner cars 4 cylinder?

GM has a good track record, albeit not a market leader, in hybrid technology for buses...I could be wrong, but I would still hope that they can develop reasonable hybrid technology for consumer vehicles without licensing / purchasing from the competition.

I think someone said that the average Buick driver is 70...if I got that right, could you please back that up? If that is true, what is the demographic really like since there are many of us in 30s / 40s driving Buicks.

I will agree that the product line doesn't have much to offer. The Enclave has been a bright spot as far as I know, but the bean counters diluted that again by introducing the Chev Traverse. The GM dealer closest to our rural property had one of each sitting side by side on their lot. The Buick is presumably considerably nicer, but also presumably considerably more expensive, so the Chev will be sold while the Enclave may sit longer.

I have just begun to check out the LaCrosse introduction site, but I would like to reiterate my frustration with the decision makers regarding the model lineup for Buick. Two sedans and a crossover do not a lot of choice make. Granted, it may fit the bill for a lot of people, but it's pretty disappointing to see no coupes nor convertibles. The competition is making them, why not Buick? This age demographic thing may be a chicken and egg discussion. So long as people keep repeating that the Buick is an old person's car, young people are less likely to embrace it and will look at something else. However, without any product to bring younger buyers into the dealerships, why would that perception change?

I keep saying that I'd like to get better fuel economy in the vehicles I drive overall, but with a family of 5, I can't use a compact, nor am I willing (yes, I said willing, which implies a choice rather than a need) to sacrifice comfort (in other words, those Buick Allures, with "Malibu" seats as my dealer service advisor referred to them, just don't cut it...going to the top model gets Buick seats). If anyone wants to dispute some of my reasoning, first take my three kids on a 2200 mile round trip like I did this summer...trust me, space and comfort are very important.

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For those who say a 4 cylinder won't attract younger buyers, aren't most tuner cars 4 cylinder?

Yes, but a Lacrosse or Lucerne are not tuner cars. So putting a 4 cylinder in one is not going to attract younger buyers.

I cannot believe that from a full line up several years ago, they are down to 2 4 doors and an SUV, and expect to sell to everyone.

A coupe or convertible would definitely draw people into showrooms. Unfortunately they cannot be the only car doing that because even though I will never buy a 4 door, that is what sells the most. So why can't they do what Chrysler did and make both a 2 and 4 door that people want based on the same platform?

An average age of 70 means not only that there are a lot of 70 year olds driving Buicks but also 80 and 90 year olds that cancel out the 30 and 40 year olds.

Retro styling is very popular right now with muscle cars. I don't see why companies that have a strong heritage like Buick, Cadillac, and Lincoln don't apply some of that thinking to their cars.

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Guest Redwind89
nor am I willing (yes, I said willing, which implies a choice rather than a need) to sacrifice comfort
from Thriller, I agree with this completely. There is no way I would give up the comfort of my Buick for the sake of MPG. Any car that weights less then my Regal or Lesabre should get better MPG, but they don't have style or any personality. For mixed driving I still get 23-24MPG in my 3700lb Regal. so to get 3-4 more MPG I would have to "trade up " to a car that weights half of that and is half the size, with half the options, why? I think that GM putting a V4 in a Buick might not totally be a bad idea, just at the wrong time. You shouldn't want to alienate you buyer by taking away the one thing that was a give me in Buick. If you wanted a 4 cylinder you bought a Chevy or Pontiac, not Buick or Cadillac. If GM brought over the new Regal with the 2.0 turbo engine, that would attract buyers or if they brought over that Station Wagon, that might appeal to buyer as well.
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so to get 3-4 more MPG I would have to "trade up " to a car that weights half of that and is half the size, with half the options, why?

Who said anything about eliminating options? Or comfort? Or standard features for that matter. Have you seen what comes in a BMW? Or even a Prius (which is more heavily loaded with features than the base model Buicks in the same price range)? Have you sat in a leather 4 cylinder Mercedes seat?

See how these assumptions about size are so ingrained in people? In many cases it's hopeless, and a lot of "traditional" GM customers are simply going to have to be abandoned in order for the remaining parts of the company to survive. Trying to accommodate these outmoded notions of the car market has alienated too many people who'd otherwise jump at the chance to buy an American BMW or Acura.

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Rather than GM put a 4-banger in a Buick, I would MUCH, MUCH rather have a state-of-the-art hybrid system available in a luxurious, safe Buick. Unfortunately, my only domestic choice is the Mercury Milan.
A 4 cylinder quality car is a first step to a quality hybrid. I think it's a good sign, and that both 4 cylinder and hybrid Buicks are a short-term certainty at this point.

BTW, Ford also makes a hybrid version of the Fusion, nearly identical to the Milan. Except for a somewhat more dramatically reduced trunk capacity than other hybrid conversions, they are the equal of any hybrid on the road. Hopefully GM (and Chrysler) will have equivalents in their lineup in rapid course. It would be better to design a hybrid from scratch to take maximum advantage of the system, like the Prius and Insight which offer maximized interior size without the unnecessary bulk used to haul around the bigger, traditional drivetrain in the conventional model.

Edited by Dave@Moon (see edit history)
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. Have you seen what comes in a BMW? Or even a Prius (which is more heavily loaded with features than the base model Buicks in the same price range)? Have you sat in a leather 4 cylinder Mercedes seat?

I saw a neal nice looking BMW convertible today. 4 seater with nice white leather seats. Looked brand new. Old guy driving it... and when he passed me I thought to myself...my old go kart sounded better than that thing.

What I see is that some people would not look twice at a Buick even if you had a gold engine in it and were giving it away. Unless it has a foreign name on it, they have the perception that it is inherently flawed. Towards that end it is usless to put a 4 cylinder in a La Crosse. Doesn't matter what they do people will still think Buicks are for old people and American cars are unreliable, when nothing could be further from the truth.

But it is true that the Beemer sounded like a singer sewing machine to me. And that's not the first one I've heard like that.

Also it seems to me that more Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans, rather than Buicks, are driven by the elderly. Perhaps it's just my neighborhood. But I think it is safe to say that unless GM builds a reasonably priced entry level Buick, the image of the Division will never be changed. After all, given todays economy, how many 28K cars can anyone expect to sell to younger Americans?

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I don't understand why there is so much importance placed on attracting young buyers, and old buyers are no good. Yes, the old buyers will eventually pass away. However, I thought that the point of having a Buick or Cadillac was to have a more prestigious car than what a 20 year old would have. The old idea of General Motors, which was a very good one except no one seems to remember the concept, is that you buy an inexpensive Chevy when you are young and work your way up to a Cadillac. If you start with a Buick, then you will look to another company when you become successful because you won't want a car that 20 year olds are driving.

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Guest bkazmer

the interest in young buyers is of course driven by the number of purchases they have yet to make. So the more serious issue is indeed how badly Chevy is perceived. But with a long history of Cavalier then Cobalt as an entry level vehicle, why should this be surprising?

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The number of purchases you have yet to make are not all going to made while you are in your 20's. When you are in your 20's, you live in a cheap apartment, eat fast food and frozen quickie meals, and listen to rock music.

When you get older, you want a big house, gourmet meals in a fancy restaurant, and some people listen to opera or classical music.

Therefore the car you bought at 25 is most likely not going to be the car you want when you become successful. While Chevy's low end of the totem pole status didn't hurt it in the 1930's - 1970's. You didn't run out and buy an Impala if you won the lottery. You bought a Rolls, Cadillac, or Ferrari. You wanted to show up to your 40th high school reunion in one as well, not an Impala.

Generally older people bought Cadillacs and Buicks in the 1930's. These people are not around anymore yet Cadillac always managed to find new older buyers each decade. I doubt that current older Cadillac and Buick buyers all bought brand new ones when they were in their 20's.

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Guest bkazmer

I agree that what you buy shifts, and Buick doesn't really have to appeal to 25 year olds to be successful.

Sloan's model was based on a customer being able to shift what they buy without leaving the GM fold. But at some point (hopefully the first purchase) they need to become a customer. So Buick customers, in the broad sense, moved up from Olds before moving on to Cadillac. The Olds they moved to after the Pontiac that followed the Chevy. Or at least they hoped to.

So Chevy's role as a "starter" is important and they're not doing too well at it.

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Of course people's needs change and the cars they buy will change.

What are the folks who bought a GN 25 years ago driving today? Granted, some will still have the GN. There are some among the younger set who have money and / or credit available to them. They may want something like a Riviera personal luxury car or Reatta two seater or a convertible. That would likely fall into the young professional or tradesperson making some dough or imminently making money.

When I finished university, my roommate and I visited a local Chev-Olds dealer. I had just finished and undergraduate engineering degree and my buddy a commerce degree. All they had that interested me was the Z34 coupe - the salesman told me that I couldn't afford it and by the time I could I wouldn't be interested (I'll be he got far as a salesman). My friend was interested in purchasing a Trans Am...of course at a Chev dealership, you talk Camaro. The salesman discussed it with him, even though there were none on the lot and told him to come back later in the spring when they would have some in and they could work something out with his parents. That didn't go over well - my buddy and his sister had been orphaned and raised by grandparents. He'd already purchased 3 new GM vehicles - 2 TAs and a small truck...and the salesman, who knew nothing of his finances told him to get his parents involved.

Needless to say, I've never bought a Chev or Olds...the only time I stepped foot into the dealership again was when a friend was working there and I wanted to discuss a full size van.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the dealers need to have some product to bring people in the doors. Not everyone wants to start with a Chev...and you can no longer start with an Olds...nor soon with a Pontiac. So, you go to a Buick (and frankly, very few young men want to start off with a four door sedan period, regardless of brand image). They want something sporty...that means 2 doors, possibly soft top.

Kids seem to get money to buy tuner cars, spend cash on mods, and cash on stereos. Granted, in the current environment that may change, but they somehow managed.

I think it all comes down to a chicken and egg thing. If Buick continues offering just four door sedans, there is only a certain demographic that will be attracted. If Buick only attracts a certain demographic, they won't offer product that is outside that demographic. Part of the problem is that there seems to be no good way to offer a lower production model that makes a modest profit - whether or not it be a halo car, it has to be something interesting.

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How'd you get so smart Derek? :)

There's usually a word starting with "a" after the smart in describing me :D I could claim nine or ten years of university education may have done it, but I think it may have more to do with genetics and being the son of a farmer who instilled common sense into this character.

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I don't understand why there is so much importance placed on attracting young buyers, and old buyers are no good. Yes, the old buyers will eventually pass away. However, I thought that the point of having a Buick or Cadillac was to have a more prestigious car than what a 20 year old would have. The old idea of General Motors, which was a very good one except no one seems to remember the concept, is that you buy an inexpensive Chevy when you are young and work your way up to a Cadillac. If you start with a Buick, then you will look to another company when you become successful because you won't want a car that 20 year olds are driving.

It used to work that way, but in the 1960s all GM divisions (and Ford & Mopar for that matter) began marketing upscale cars to keep their clientele as they aged. Cars like the original Caprice, Bonneville, 98 Regency, original LTD, Grand Marquis, Fury VIP, Monoco 500, etc. were all "old men's cars". These products changed the dynamic, but the makers of them (except maybe Ford) never recognized that.

Today you find a world filled with loyal Pontiac customers, Mercury customers, etc., MANY of whom could afford a "better" car, but are happy in the little brand bubble they found for themselves. Just like any other product, they developed brand loyalty at an earlier age and won't leave, even if they have to pretend a BMW sounds like a "go-cart" to do so.

So today, if you make a happy 68 year old customer you've sold 1 car, or maybe eventually 2 cars. If you make a happy 38 year old customer you've sold at least a half dozen or so cars in the coming years. If your median customer is 68, like Buick's is right now, you're not grooming any future business, and your future is bleak.

Having top grade quality in entry level cars is what grooming future business is all about. It won't be enough to slap out another 4 cylinder Buick. We had those by the boat load in the 1980s, and it darn near makes the news if one is seen today. The next Buick entry level car better be a BMW beater. The brand depends on it.

(BTW, BMW has one of the lowest median buyer ages in the business for an upscale car. The last statistics I saw had their average customer age younger than Chevrolet!)

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Today you find a world filled with loyal Pontiac customers, Mercury customers, etc., MANY of whom could afford a "better" car, but are happy in the little brand bubble they found for themselves. Just like any other product, they developed brand loyalty at an earlier age and won't leave, even if they have to pretend a BMW sounds like a "go-cart" to do so.

So today, if you make a happy 68 year old customer you've sold 1 car, or maybe eventually 2 cars. If you make a happy 38 year old customer you've sold at least a half dozen or so cars in the coming years. If your median customer is 68, like Buick's is right now, you're not grooming any future business, and your future is bleak.

I have to disagree with that. Years ago you could look at a driveway and see if a family was a Ford, GM, or Chrysler family. There would be a Dodge wagon, New Yorker, and maybe a used Plymouth for the teenager. Now driveways have one BMW, one Toyota, one GM SUV, and a tuner for the teenager. I can't remember the last time I saw an all anything driveway.

The same thing with purchases. First the neighbor has a Toyota, then a GM SUV, then a Honda. I think there is much less brand loyalty than before.

I used to manage a gas station. Many people that brought their cars in, no offense but especially women, didn't even know what they had if they were a multi-car family. I had to look at it to see what it was to write up a work order. So they have brand loyalty to they don't remember what they brought in?

Edited by LINC400 (see edit history)
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Today you find a world filled with loyal Pontiac customers, Mercury customers, etc., MANY of whom could afford a "better" car, but are happy in the little brand bubble they found for themselves. Just like any other product, they developed brand loyalty at an earlier age and won't leave, even if they have to pretend a BMW sounds like a "go-cart" to do so.

Dave, lDave, Dave : I called it like I heard it , but just to clarify, I said: the go kart sounded better than the BMW.

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Guest THEHKP7M13
How'd you get so smart Derek? :)

You know, the bad thing about all of this, is that the older guys remember the good old days, when just walking through the dealer's lot got you to drooling.:(

Wayne

I am only 30 and I agree. 10-15 years ago at least you had some choices. Now if the manufacturer offers 1 or 2 different 2 doors it a bonanza.

BTW, I think BMW make some sweet cars, but they def. sound worse then a go-cart compaired to a V8.

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Guest sintid58

Jeez Mr Moon was gone but not forgotten for quite awhile. I don't remember anyone lamenting his absence, but now he is back and so are his oh so enlightening opinions. Yipee

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Guest THEHKP7M13

Maybe he went on a road trip and surveyed the 15 mile radius around the plant were they make the batteries that go into hit Prius and realized that there is not one living thing in nature around THE PRIUS BATTERY PLANT.

OK THINGS TO SAVE BUICK IF ANYONE FROM GM GIVES A DAMN ANYMORE:

1.) Steal the G8 and claim it as your own. Possible top model could be a GSX?

2.) You need a coupe or two and possibly a convertible. The name Riviera and Reatta come to mind???? You have the platforms for them, utilize them. Even if every one you make loses money it creates showroom/auto show traffic and proves to the world you can make something other then a boring car. It might start a movement over there to make appealing cars and have model sales crack a million a year again.

3.) MAKE PERFOMANCE MODELS OF YOUR CARS...PONTIAC IS DEAD CAPITALIZE!

4.) You need a SUV/CROSSOVER/WHATEVER THE TERM THIS MONTH IS that slots in below the Enclave. It would be your volume leader

5.) FOR CRYING OUT LOUD USE YOUR REAL NAMES...LESABRE, PARK AVE., RIVIERA, REATTA, ELECTRA, REGAL, CENTURY, ETC.ETC.ETC. .....BE PROUD OF YOUR CARS AND YOUR PAST DAMNIT!

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Guest THEHKP7M13

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is relavent to this whole post. I encourage all you to read through it even if your not Reatta fans because the article discusses a lot of the behind the scenes B.S. that lead the GM's downfall.

http://ateupwithmotor.com/model-histories/sports-cars-and-muscle-cars/165-legends-of-the-fall-buick-reatta.html/

*** JUST SO NO ONE THINKS I FOUND THIS ARTICLE OR HAD SUCH A BRILLIANT ORIGINAL THOUGHT I AM GIVING FULL CREDIT TO:

spyhunter2k

HIS ORIGINAL POSTING OF THE LINK COULD BE FOUND IN THE REATTA SUB-FORUM OF AACA.ORG. ***

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OK THINGS TO SAVE BUICK IF ANYONE FROM GM GIVES A DAMN ANYMORE:

1.) Steal the G8 and claim it as your own. Possible top model could be a GSX?

Is the Ponti G8 what was made by GM Australia ?

The larger Holden Commodore's are built in Aussie with the Buick v6 (engine is made in Aust). The Holden Commodore is badged as Chev and sold into Saudi Arabia and other middle east countries.

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Maybe he went on a road trip and surveyed the 15 mile radius around the plant were they make the batteries that go into hit Prius and realized that there is not one living thing in nature around THE PRIUS BATTERY PLANT.

Interesting, since there are three Panasonic EV Energy Co. plants in Japan that make Ni-MH batteries for the Prius, each one of which is located in the urban section of a city. I think people in cities still count as living things.

Is it any wonder I don't hang around this forum much any more?:(

BTW, what you're really referring to here is the mis-information attributing 125 years of environmental damage in Sudbury, Ontario to 10 years of Prius production. The smelter in Sudbury is the source of 90% of the world's nickel supply, including Panasonic EV Energy Co. which purchases a tiny fraction of the plant's production. However, even the 125 year history of the smelting operation doesn't account for all of the infamous "dead zone" around Sudbury.

Oh yeah, I forgot. The introduction of modern pollution controls long before the Prius was introduced have massively reduced emissions from the Sudbury plant. The "dead zone" has been recovering nicely for decades now.

Oh, and one more thing, the "dead zone" is a 1.5 mile radius, not a 15 mile radius.

Does it really cost more to produce a Toyota prius than a Hummer? - Yahoo! Answers

The Reclamation of Sudbury: The Greening of a Moonscape

Credibility is important.

Edited by Dave@Moon
typo (see edit history)
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The Smart Car...what we'll be forced to drive quite soon...

But look at all of the 'great new choices' we will have from 'The SMART Car'.....

The Smorvette!

ATT00337.jpg

The Smaudi A3 AWD!

ATT00340.jpg

The Smamborghini!

ATT00343.jpg

The Smorsche!

ATT00346.jpg

The Smorsche Targa!

ATT00349.jpg

The Smerrari!

ATT00352.jpg

And last,but not least,

The Smustang!

smustang1247104751.gif

:P:D:eek:

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is relavent to this whole post. I encourage all you to read through it even if your not Reatta fans because the article discusses a lot of the behind the scenes B.S. that lead the GM's downfall.

http://ateupwithmotor.com/model-histories/sports-cars-and-muscle-cars/165-legends-of-the-fall-buick-reatta.html/

*** JUST SO NO ONE THINKS I FOUND THIS ARTICLE OR HAD SUCH A BRILLIANT ORIGINAL THOUGHT I AM GIVING FULL CREDIT TO:

spyhunter2k

HIS ORIGINAL POSTING OF THE LINK COULD BE FOUND IN THE REATTA SUB-FORUM OF AACA.ORG. ***

HKP, that was a very depressing story, which I think actually strikes at the heart of this country's car problems. When I read of the engineers that were let go, I think of how many more industries have lost really special talent to the bean counters. Depressing, really depressing.:(

Wayne

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