seat belts,your thoughts

[Guest Skyking]

It does to me also. Car companies are coming out with some strange stuff. Like the new Mercedes E Class that can stop on it's own with no assistance from the driver according to an ad I saw just tonight. Scary, very scary.

Susan, this is happening because people can't think for themselves anymore............it is scary!

On another note: It amazes me to no end why school buses don't have seat belts. I know in RI they don't, don't know about other states.

[Guest Skyking]

Back in the good old days, the cave men didn’t have rules,

but you don’t see many cave men around any more!

Roger, now that's funny!!!!:D:D

[LINC400]

One corrupt police force doesn't make a corrupt society. Also the police don't want people buckling up just for the check points, or avoiding them. DUI checkpoints are never announced for the same reason.

IF (and I do mean IF) your police force is being used as a revenue collection service, it's being abused as much as the laws themselves. People don't get into law enforcement, with the training/education/danger/low pay/etc., to become glorified toll collectors. It's an insult to them if they are being used this way. More importantly, if they are being used this way it would be the users (your friendly neighborhood local politicians) that would put the kibosh on announcing the checkpoints. (Unless the police are working on a commission basis, in which case you have bigger problems!).

Bottom line, it will be when YOU pay MY INSURANCE BILLS.

At least that's the "bottom line" everyone else has agreed on.

You have obviously never lived in suburban Chicago where the crime rate is low and the police are quite bored. Granted not all cops are bad, but I worked for a gas station that held the contract for state and local police towing. They would come in and tell their stories. Some would make your skin crawl or blood boil. IE they just had to stop that hot chick in the covertible even though she wasn't doing anything wrong so that they could get a better look down her blouse. (and that is nothing compared to some stories) All they do around here is ticket. When they are actually needed for something, they are very slow to respond. That is not just one police dept. but most of the 15 around my specific area. Without getting into a big political discussion has someone heard something about an Illinois governor being corrupt?

As far as insurance, all they have to do is put in a clause that they don't have to pay if seat belts were not worn. They seem to find all kinds of clauses to get out of paying all the time.

[Guest Skyking]

Without getting into a big political discussion has someone heard something about an Illinois governor being corrupt?

QUOTE]

Hey Linc, Isn't that where Ob........ Oh, never mind.

[LINC400]

under that thinking bake lights etc should be drivers choice?

The bake light on my oven is optional. You can turn it on or leave it off when baking.

Brake lights on cars ,however, are for the safety of other drivers. Seat belts are not. They only affect the person wearing or not wearing it.

[LINC400]

Without getting into a big political discussion has someone heard something about an Illinois governor being corrupt?

QUOTE]

Hey Linc, Isn't that where Ob........ Oh, never mind.

We're not going there.

[MCHinson]

In my town this year, we have had 14 or 15 Traffic Fatalities so far.... We have had only 1 Murder. We must not be having too many checkpoints trying to collect all that revenue as you suspect.

At the risk of being offensive,

Linc400, Your observations do not sound like a police problem... It sounds like an Illinois problem, and perhaps specifically, a Chicago corruption problem.

And...

Dave, Thanks, I don't often agree with you, but you and I can agree on that one.

[LINC400]

In my town this year, we have had 14 or 15 Traffic Fatalities so far.... We have had only 1 Murder. We must not be having too many checkpoints trying to collect all that revenue as you suspect.

At the risk of being offensive,

Linc400, Your observations do not sound like a police problem... It sounds like an Illinois problem, and perhaps specifically, a Chicago corruption problem.

And...

Dave, Thanks, I don't often agree with you, but you and I can agree on that one.

Chicago currupt? A city where dead people vote, sometimes twice in the same election. Can't be. Yes it is an Illinois, Chicago, suburban, and police problem. They are not concerned about safety as they like to pretend. They are concerned about revenue. I imagine a lot of the police officers did not get their job because they wanted to write tickets. But they take to it very quickly. Probably there is a quota that they must meet. However, there are plenty that tell others about how stores that don't give them free stuff get much slower response times to calls or managers get pulled over more frequently for traffic violations. So it absolutely sickens me when they put up these roadblocks to generate revenue under the guise of public service or safety.

The station I was at gave them free coffee, let them use the phone, nap in the back lot (not kidding), and would give them donuts if we had some, which wasn't often. So I could drive 5-15 mph without being stopped or let off with a warning in the towns that we catered to. But I would get a ticket for going 34 in a 30 in the towns we didn't. In fact when I worked the overnight shift I would get stopped in these towns for no reason other than they were bored at night, and hoped they might find something.

As far as insurance, seat belts were not always the law in IL. However, when it became law, my premiums did not go down. In fact they went up and have continued to do so every year.

[Dave@Moon]

Brake lights on cars ,however, are for the safety of other drivers. Seat belts are not. They only affect the person wearing or not wearing it.

Ah, but safety is hardly the limiting factor in how you effect others, is it? Has anyone even suggested that their saftey is compromised by someone else not wearing a seat belt? Or my example of walking accross a bridge on the railing for that matter?

There are plenty of ways you effect me when you don't wear your seat belt, not the least of which is financial. This isn't even an arguable point any more. Making it one, and representing it here as legitimate, effects me and our hobby negatively as well. It's all well and good to be an independent cowboy, but a thoughtless independent cowboy is a dangerous thing.

You can limit your focus to make the argument you want. It's a common practice in human relations and politics, one that often succeeds but never delivers positive results.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Dave@Moon
can't type (see edit history)

[Shop Rat]

On another note: It amazes me to no end why school buses don't have seat belts. I know in RI they don't, don't know about other states.

Here in W. Va. they passed a law and by this fall or next our school buses will have seatbelts. I know that in the past the members of the state board of education were worried that students might use the belts/buckles as a way to hurt other kids. But parents have lobbied that if kids must be in a booster seat or seatbelt in a car they should also be in one on a school bus.

I baby-sit for a total of seven kids in three families. I purchased a full booster seat complete with the back and arms for the five kids that are out of the car seat size. If I had to transport the two year old or the one year old I would have to borrow a carseat from the parents. I agree that the school board should provide the necessary protection for kids in their care.

[Shop Rat]

Bottom line, the CHOICE should be MINE.

wj, The choice is still yours to make. You just have to be willing to accept the consequences for your actions if you choose not to wear it. Be they a fine, jail time, or being maimed or killed in a wreck. NO ONE is going to show up every time you get into your vehicle and force you at gun point to put it on. It is still up to you to choose. I personally hope you choose to wear it.

[LINC400]

Ah, but safety is hardly the limiting factor in how you effect others, is it? Has anyone even suggested that their saftey is compromised by someone else not wearing a seat belt? Or my example of walking accross a bridge on the railing for that matter?

There are plenty of ways you effect me when you don't wear your seat belt, not the least of which is financial. This isn't even an arguable point any more. Making it one, and representing it here as legitimate, effects me and our hobby negatively as well. It's all well and good to be an independent cowboy, but a thoughtless independent cowboy is a dangerous thing.

You can limit your focus to make the argument you want. It's a common practice in human relations and politics, one that often succeeds but never delivers positive results.

If someone has no brake lights on a dark road and comes to a sudden stop, this does affect whether or not I may be able to stop in time. If someone hits me, and they are not wearing a seatbelt, I don't see how this affects me. If they are injured because they did not wear one, this does not affect me. If you want to argue that their families are affected or there could be lawsuits etc. the same argument applies to a motorcyclist not wearing a helmet. But that is legal. I have been in a head on collision and was not wearing my seat belt. I didn't have a scratch. I suppose I was lucky but, I credit the 5000 lb. Lincoln I was driving a lot more than luck. I most definitely would not want to be on a motorcycle in a head on collision with or without helmet. But a helmet is not required. So why is my seatbelt? I am not against seatbelts. I am against seatbelts being a law.

Edited July 24, 2009 by LINC400 (see edit history)

[LINC400]

Here in W. Va. they passed a law and by this fall or next our school buses will have seatbelts. I know that in the past the members of the state board of education were worried that students might use the belts/buckles as a way to hurt other kids. But parents have lobbied that if kids must be in a booster seat or seatbelt in a car they should also be in one on a school bus.

I baby-sit for a total of seven kids in three families. I purchased a full booster seat complete with the back and arms for the five kids that are out of the car seat size. If I had to transport the two year old or the one year old I would have to borrow a carseat from the parents. I agree that the school board should provide the necessary protection for kids in their care.

My friend is a school bus driver. None of the buses are even equipped with seat belts. He also says his job is one step up from "Would you like fries with that?" He tells me stories about the complete stupidity of some of the drivers. Yet they are driving around a bus full of 40 or so kids in a society that supposedly places the safety of children above alll else.

[Shop Rat]

DUI checkpoints are never announced for the same reason.

In W. Va. they are and they have to be by law. AND, usually they are set up to where even if you didn't hear/read where they will be you can see them and turn around a go another way.

Last year a lady that I know through the Dalmatian Message Board I am on lost her soon-to-be daughter-in-law to a drunk young man driving at about 2:30 in the morning. They were on their way home from a visit to family further down in Fla. She was driving, her husband was in the passenger seat, their son was behind her and the young woman was behind my friend's husband.

The young man blew through a STOP sign in a turn lane and t-boned my friend's car. Jennifer was killed instantly. She had been asleep and never knew what happened. My friend's husband had multiple injuries including several breaks in his pelvis, leg and ribs. He was in the hospital for weeks and will never be the same. He still has some numbness in his leg. Their son was severly injured also. He spent a week in a medically induced coma to help him heal. His fiancee was buried before he was brought out of the coma. It was about a week after that they told him she had died at the scene. My friend was the least injured but she had a broken arm and ribs. They were all wearing seatbelts. Jennifer was killed because she was at the point of impact and that drunk young man was flying down the road.

It was just over a year ago. The last I heard the trial was starting. I have not heard what the verdict is, if there is one yet.

Why on earth my state would require that drunks be warned I have never figured out.

[Dave@Moon]

But a helmet is not required. So why is my seatbelt?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

I see no need to reword this answer for the 16th or 17th time on this thread.

[Guest Dean_H.]

I also noticed my insurance rates have gone up since seat belts were forced on us. Could it be that more people are injured in accidents; rather than killed because of seat belt use. With more injured people surviving, insurance companies (and taxpayers) pay out more for medical costs.

[LINC400]

I see no need to reword this answer for the 16th or 17th time on this thread.

The only answer I see to that is where you say because old Harley Guys vote. That doesn't seem like much of a reason.

[Shop Rat]

The only answer I see to that is where you say because old Harley Guys vote. That doesn't seem like much of a reason.

Or folks vote for someone else.

In our case we both voted for our current governor the first time he ran for office. He and his wife own and ride a motorcycle. He made the mistake of saying that if the motorcyclists ever got the legislature to repeal our helmet law he would sign it. So this time we voted for the guy running against him. The guy didn't win but we would not vote for a governor that would sign a law to endanger the lives of our citizens.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I agree in principal with the folks that do not like "mandatory". My dad was one of those. Would not wear his seat belt. UNTIL his insurance company threw in a clause that if he was killed while wearing his belt, his estate would receive an extra 10,000.00 dollars. Worked.

Ben

[Guest Skyking]

Why on earth my state would require that drunks be warned I have never figured out.

In this day and age drunk drivers should get the death penalty....... period!

I've seen and heard of too many families torn apart because of some irresponsible drunk.

[Reatta Man]

As for all of this talk about something shouldn't be 'manditory,' it is ridiculous.

Every safety part of your car meets a 'manditory' standard. It is called the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard, or FMVSS. You will see it stamped on a lot of parts on your car, usually something like "Meets FMVSS XXX." Those standards are not voluntary, and if you found out GM, Ford or any one else sold you a vehicle that didn't pass a major FMVSS, you would be calling your lawyer.

Also, everything connected with your car or truck meets manditory standards that you expect or even demand they meet. Anyone want to buy 83 octane gas, when the pump says it is 87? How about a station that dispenses .89 gallons, but charges you for 1.00 gallons? Anyone want to drive on a highway with stripes that wash off after two or three rainstorms? Nope.

So, these non-helmet, non-seatbelt people don't want to be told what to do by the government, but the companies making the products they drive, drive on, ride in, use to move their car or truch had BETTER meet those standards.

To all those who have made a clear and sometimes personal case for seat belts, it is time to stop. Go wash and wax your car, ride in your classic convertible with the top down, go to a swap meet or shop for a part on ebay. The people who know the value of seat belts couldn't be talked out of wearing them on this or any other forum. Those who don't know or don't WANT to know won't wear them.

Joe

[Shop Rat]

My dad was one of those. Would not wear his seat belt. UNTIL his insurance company threw in a clause that if he was killed while wearing his belt, his estate would receive an extra 10,000.00 dollars. Worked.

Ben

Our insurance doubles the coverage for anyone in the car/truck/RV if they are wearing their seatbelt. Even "Furball" (a stuffed toy blue cat) that rides in the PT wears a seatbelt. The kids see it and love it. I never have to argue with any of them about their seatbelt.

[LINC400]

So, these non-helmet, non-seatbelt people don't want to be told what to do by the government, but the companies making the products they drive, drive on, ride in, use to move their car or truch had BETTER meet those standards.

To all those who have made a clear and sometimes personal case for seat belts, it is time to stop. Go wash and wax your car, ride in your classic convertible with the top down, go to a swap meet or shop for a part on ebay. The people who know the value of seat belts couldn't be talked out of wearing them on this or any other forum. Those who don't know or don't WANT to know won't wear them.

Joe

Yes that is correct. Companies should not be allowed to sell products that are sub-par or unsafe because consumers are not aware of what risks might be involved. So there should be laws and regulations for that. Someone who chooses not to wear a seatbelt or helmet is aware of what risks they are taking, it does not affect the safety of someone buying a product, and they should be allowed to make their own decision.

Also there are probably hundreds of thousands of topics on here. They end when no one has anything more to say. However, it seems to be a more common occurrence that when one individual decides that they don't want to read any more about the subject, they announce it should be ended. I have posted quite enough on this subject. However, maybe someone else is just seeing this for the first time now and would like to add something, whatever their viewpoint. Why should someone else decide that a topic is done and nothing more should be added? My understanding was that everyone was free to reply to whatever post they wanted. If you don't want to read any more about a subject. Then don't read any more about the subject. Don't tell others to stop posting.

[Reatta Man]

I'm not telling anyone to stop posting. But there is such as thing as doing something knowing that it won't make any difference.

Your post that says people 'should be allowed to make their own decision' validates the point I was making; the people that want to not wear them are not thinking about it; they have already decided.

So, post all you wish. But, I don't think it is going to change anyone's mind. And, if you are fairly certain that nothing will be accomplished, the only reason to post is.....????

[joe_padavano]

Brake lights on cars ,however, are for the safety of other drivers. Seat belts are not. They only affect the person wearing or not wearing it.

And again, as soon as you send my my check, I'll agree with you completely. Until then it DOES affect someone else.

[Steve Braverman]

This argument can, and will, go on forever. I will add my two cents. I have been wearing a seat belt since the law was passed in NY in 1984. I was ten years old at the time. I did not wear one before that, and my parents whined and complained about the law at the time.

I started riding motorcycles at age 14, always with a helmet, but not always with proper gear. I was hit by a car at age 15 while riding a Honda scooter. Helmeted, but no gloves. I still have the scar on the back of my hand. I gave up the BMW motorcycle (I evolved) last year because I couldn't ride it anymore without feeling guilty about my daughter, and what would happen if I were killed or left a vegetable. However, I NEVER rode without a helmet, gloves, boots, and a real motorcycle jacket with armor. I remember riding through CT (no helmet law) and not getting waves back from the riders that were riding "naked." They had not yet evolved. I don't need a law to be intelligent.

A good friend of mine in the Franklin Club is a retired surgeon. He would just shake his head when discussing motorcycles, and he would chastise me for not having seat belts in the Franklin. He was broad-sided by a firetruck while driving a '32 Franklin like mine. The car was rolled, and he walked away. When my daughter was born, I installed belts in the car. I now feel foolish for not installing them sooner.

A few weeks ago, I posted a thread asking members' thoughts on installing seat belts in my father's 1910 Sears Highwheeler. I quickly deleted the tread after being berated by others for even asking. My dad feels that being strapped into a car like this is like being belted into a motorcycle because it is so flimsy. However, even a minor collision at the Sears' 20 mph top speed could be fatal if the passengers are ejected, while remaining inside whatever frame the car has is better than being thrown onto the road.

[LINC400]

Seat belts save lives.

What I object to is this.

I drove 200 miles home from a car show with my seat belt on. I stopped at a fast food drive in 5 blocks from my house on the way home. I had to take off my seat belt to get my wallet and change. I forgot to put it back on. I got a ticket from a cop and a lecture about safety. Afterwards, he did a U-turn in front of oncoming traffic, sped off at about 65 mph in a 40 mph zone, and cut across traffic to go to the fast food place I just came from. I don't think I should be getting a ticket and lecture on safety from him.

On my way to work I am wearing my seatbelt. I am delayed for 20 minutes in traffic because the police have set up a roadblock to ticket people not wearing seat belts. I am late for work and docked pay so that the police can tie up traffic collecting revenue.

If I was helmetless on a motorcycle, far more dangerous than without a seat belt in a car, nothing would happen to me. No lectures, no tickets. If seat belts weren't the law, there would be no revenue road block, and I would not get docked pay because of it.

Can anyone here provide statistics showing that insurance premiums have gone down since seat belt laws have been enacted? Mine have gone up, regardless of whether I am wearing my seat belt or not, and regardless of others are wearing one or not. So perhaps Joe should be sending me checks since seat belts are the law as he wants, and my insurance is still going up.

[msmazcol]

Hey Linc400, get ready for the hot new law being enforced in Illinois. The move over for emergency equipment law. It is being heavily enforced on Chicago roadways. I'm all for NOT ramming any vehicles or people who have to do their work on the shoulder of fast moving roadways. I drive a commercial vehicle working road construction and I am the guy on the side of the roadway. My only question is how does this one work out? You crest a hill and a squad is parked on the shoulder. You signal and make every effort to move over. The traffic next to you will not yield. That squad now pulls you down and issues YOU the citation.

I'm all for any and all safety items that can be built into vehicles, but I highly believe you are correct about the tickets. It's about the REVENUE.

I also rode many miles in a car without a seat belt on and even clocked many miles on a bike with no helmet as a kid.

Still here. Just dumb luck I guess. Let's all slow down our bad driving habits and give all that safety equipment and the poor insurance companies a break!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Guest Dean_H.]

Linc400, I agree with you 100%. It's a retarded law and hopefully we can get it repealed one day. Just like any thing else you need to follow the money to find the truth. In the 1980s congress was attempting to push the car makers into installing air bags. The big three lobbied instead to force us to wear seat belts to improve safety, and delayed the costly air bag systems.

[Guest 63grandprix]

I HAVE USED Seat Belts since I was 17 early 70"S CALIFORNIA

street racing in old PONTIACS and PLYMOUTH BELVEDERES

It was the only way to stay in the seats . i HAVE BEEN STOPED IN MY 63 RIVY BUT THEY

CAN NOT GIVE YOU A TICKET IF YOUR CAR NEVER HAD SEAT BELTS

[Oxnard Montalvo]

A body in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted on by an outside force.

Isaac Newton.

Why anyone would argue for the freedom to make the choice to remain unrestrained in 2 tons of steel traveling at speed is beyond me. Our government is in the process of turning the United States into a socialist state and a mandatory safety requirement that saves lives is eroding our rights? How about the nationalization of the automobile and health industries? Can we see the forest for the trees?

This helmet/seatbelt argument should be left to petulant children. Even when the benefits are obvious we know they don't like to be told what to do.

Nanny: "Johnny, eat your peas, they're good for you."

Johnny: "Why should I? You're not my Mother and I don't want to and you can't make me."

Nanny: "Then don't wear your seatbelt either and die in a horrible car crash you foolish boy."

For the grownups there are much bigger fish to fry.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Oxnard Montalvo (see edit history)

[LINC400]

Politics such as health care are not to be discussed here. You do not need to have a seatbelt law if you want to wear a seat belt. It works just as well without it being legally required. The law is a revenue raiser under the guise of being oh so concerned with our safety. Why are they not required on a school bus? Isn't the safety of children top priority? But children on a school bus can't pay tickets.

[Oxnard Montalvo]

They're not required on school buses because buses are designed (poorly) to contain the children where they are, hence the close, high backed seats.

Plus, children (like some adults) don't always do what's good for them so who's going to ensure 40 grammar school kids are buckled up? Maybe the fines from noncompliant seatbelt uses can pay for bus monitors.

Massachusetts does not have a primary seatbelt law. Massachusetts is dead last in seatbelt compliance. How's that working out?

EMT: "This guy's hurt pretty bad, but he wasn't wearing his seatbelt."

Nurse: "Doctor, I know him. We must save him."

Doctor: "Nurse, you know what it means. Under the new federal guidelines for triage care concerning automobile accident victims I cannot care for this gentleman because he violated section 31 paragraph 5, seatbelt compliance. Too bad. He should have eaten his peas. Dump him in the back with the old people."

Edited July 26, 2009 by Oxnard Montalvo (see edit history)

[Guest Skyking]

..................and Ox is back!:D:D:cool:

[LINC400]

EMT: "This guy's hurt pretty bad, but he wasn't wearing his seatbelt."

Nurse: "Doctor, I know him. We must save him."

Doctor: "Nurse, you know what it means. Under the new federal guidelines for triage care concerning automobile accident victims I cannot care for this gentleman because he violated section 31 paragraph 5, seatbelt compliance. Too bad. He should have eaten his peas. Dump him in the back with the old people."

Nice that you can amuse yourself with your own dialogues.

[Reatta Man]

Is that like talking to yourself? I guess that is OK, unless you get in an argument with yourself....and loose!

[Guest windjamer]

I have to agree with link 400. Its a money maker for the isueing party. We all know smokeing causes cancer and outher health problems, but the revanue from tax per pack nagates the need for a law against smokeing. To he** with a law, lets just shoot all smokers,there makeing my health insurance go up. While where at it how about a law against booze every body knows that causes problems.Yes I know seat belts save lives, I wear mine, I just by-pass the shoulder belt .

[joe_padavano]

Yes I know seat belts save lives, I wear mine, I just by-pass the shoulder belt .

So you won't get thrown through the windshield, you'll just bash your face on the dash and steering wheel?

When I lived in SoCal in the early 1980s, I would frequent the Pick-Your-Part wrecking yard in Wilmington. I don't know how many cars I saw there with one or two circular smash marks in the windshield.

[Shop Rat]

Yes I know seat belts save lives, I wear mine, I just by-pass the shoulder belt .

wj, Get one of the sealtbelt adjusters and try it. I have them on all of the seatbelts in all the vehicles. They are not expensive and a snap to install. They can be removed and put into another vehicle if you trade your vehicle in. They make the shoulder belt fit where it should be.

Most people are injured or die not from the first impact ( the vehicle hitting or being hit) but the second one when they collide with the interior of the vehicle. Dale Earnhardt Sr. died because he had his belt incorrectly installed and the belt "loaded" to the side rather than remaining flat and sheared against the metal of his seat. NASCAR now checks to make sure that every belt is installed correctly to the new standards since his death. He slammed into the inside of the car when the belt failed. In all likelyhood had the belt held he would be alive.

[ted sweet]

Yes I know seat belts save lives, I wear mine, I just by-pass the shoulder belt .

which is still the no belt ticket in New York State