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windjamer

seat belts,your thoughts

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That is a whole nother kettle of fish. This thread is why wj should wear a seatbelt. And you will notice all the responses relate to keeping him safe not keeping his wallet fat or him out of jail.

I don't think it is. He apparently doesn't want to wear a seatbelt and thinks it should be his choice. I agree. Safety is obviously not the issue as it is much more unsafe to be on a motorcycle in flip flops, shorts, no shirt and no helmet than in a 5000 lb. car with no seatbelt. Yet that is legal on a motorcycle. I get a ticket in my car.

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

I really despise laws like this one. You'd think here in the land of the "free", we'd let our citizens decide when to wear a seat belt.

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I really despise laws like this one. You'd think here in the land of the "free", we'd let our citizens decide when to wear a seat belt.

And again, if you are given the right to choose for yourself, will you also forego any insurance or publically supported financial aid needed as a result of your injuries? Why should my insurance or tax payments subsidize your "right" to make a bad decision? Of course, this line of reasoning can rapidly be extended to smokers, morbidly obese, and other cases. I think we've left the realm of automotive-related discussion.

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We are all protected from ourselves whether we like it or not.

Your porch must have a railing of a certain height.

The steps on your house must be of the same height.

Many cities demand fire and smoke alarms.

You must shovel your sidewalk when it snows.

The list goes on and we all LIVE with it.

Back in the good old days, the cave men didn’t have rules,

but you don’t see many cave men around any more!

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Back in the good old days, the cave men didn’t have rules,

but you don’t see many cave men around any more!

Ahh, but you do, Roger! ;)

We just dress better now! :cool:

..........For, we're direct descendants of the cave man! :D

Wayne

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I really despise laws like this one. You'd think here in the land of the "free", we'd let our citizens decide when to wear a seat belt.

It comes down to the cost to society. Why isn't it legal to shoot up heroin? Because addicts become a burden to society. Why isn't it legal to marry your cousin? Because the defective offspring become a burden to society. Why isn't legal to ride a bike without a helmet? Because the victims of accidents....

This can be overcome if there's enough social pressure to force the rest of society to assume the risk (motorcycle helmet laws, smoking, etc.), or if the risk/cost to society is relatively small (I love it when the safely buckled up couple in the Nissan ad come upon the naked balloonists who didn't even need pants at 1000'!). Such cases are rare. For the most part living in a communal society means having to deal with things like not being allowed to make toy guns without bright red tips, needing a license to use anything from the fireworks store more dangerous than a smoke bomb, not being allowed to use or make DDT and/or methamphetamine, etc.

It's just something decent people do for each other.:)

Edited by Dave@Moon
typo (see edit history)

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Red tips on toy guns, balcony railings and the like are indeed safety issues. While the police like to make you think seat belt laws are a safety issue, it is not about safety. It is about revenue.

One of the local radio stations used to announce when the local police would set up one of their seat belt ambush roadblocks, give the location, and tell listeners to wear their seat belts. They would also encourage listeners to call in with this info. They don't do it anymore. When many of the listeners kept asking why, finally one DJ said that they were ordered not to by the police department and can't say anymore for legal reasons. If the police were truly concerned about safety, they would be happy this radio station was telling people to buckle up. They were not. Instead they threatened the radio station with legal action because they were afraid it might reduce their ambush revenue.

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I dont want to debate the pros and cons of seat belts,thats not my point. I just think it should be MY CHOICE. I think every time I give big brother a inch he takes a foot. In 58 NY (broome county) passed a sales tax law. ITS ONLY 2% FOLKS AND ONLY ON LUX ITEMS. Un ha stop at MickyD and see what it cost. Roe V Wade gave the ladies a choice and that choice is a he** of a lot more diffinate than weather I will be hurt or killed in a vech. accident if I dont use a belt. For the record, my Buick has a lap belt. I use it. My Chevele has a lap and seperate shoulder belt I use the lap belt. Bottom line, the CHOICE should be MINE.

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You'll see the common thread about regulations in a lot of these posts boils down to insurance-company mandated items (i.e. porch railings and the like). Seat belt laws sprang from the same thing, and insurance lobbies are very powerful in statehouses and the halls of Congress. No telling how much of our premiums they have spent getting nanny laws passed so they'll have zero risk.

Zero risk is a nice thing for an insurance company to dream about, but it is not realistic. Same as Utopia is a great idea in theory, but blows all to pieces in practice.

I wear seat belts religiously, matter of fact I feel naked without them, but knowing what drove passage of these and similar nanny laws is enough to make me rebel against them.

Knowing that MADD throws grant money to local PD's for DUI checkpoints burns me up even more. Any more when they call, I politely tell them to kiss off and do not call me again. PD's up here never have seat belt, DUI or other type checkpoints unless they've gotten some grant money- in other words, the type of law enforcement you'd hope they'd do in the normal course of their work. No grant money- they don't do it.

We had a sheriff that was a pro at getting grant money. His department couldn't solve cases worth a hoot under him but they had all kinds of equipment to do it with, checkpoints for something every week, and they dressed paramilitary- all paid for with grant money. He got run out of office last election and under his successor (a former state police investigator) the department has already solved close to half the cases the new sheriff inherited from 18 years of doing nothing. BTW, the paramilitary uniforms and shaved heads are gone.

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I've noticed we never vote on laws like this one. The last election there were propositions about the cities general plan, school and park bonds, a new water canal, high speed trains etc.. All of which I know little about, but I'm asked to make a decision on. Seat belts however, I'm an expert. I'm right there in the trenches all around it every day. I have a strong opinion and it would be an easy vote. Sadly, big brother decides this one.

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Sirs; I spent 35 years as a locomotive engineer. During that time it was my misfortune to have had numerous crossing collisions with autos and semi trucks. One particular case was on the day Reagan got shot. A Wal Mart cab over and my train collided. He was doing about 20 MPH and so was I. He shot out of the windshield like from a cannon and the tractor jack knifed. The rear wheels were on his chest when we got to him. The coffee in his console was not even spilled. No seat belt. The worst accident was a Cadillac with 12 people in it (2 adults and 10 kids). I hit them less than 100 feet from their house, and the grandfather was watching from the front porch. Of the 12, 11 died. The car was airborne and spinning. each revolution two or three kids were thrown out. I was running 60 and the car was doing about 10. No sir... I don't care what you think your rights may be, it is just bad judgement not to wear a seatbelt. I have watched more people in the last instant of their lives than anyone save for some combat soldiers. True, a T-bone from a train at 60 mph is going to be fatal no matter what, but I will not even back my car up in the driveway to wash it without buckling up. I have looked into the eyes of too many people in the last instant of their lives to do otherwise. As for no helmet and shorts, etc. while on a bike, that is why trauma teams call them donorcycles.I've been riding for over 40 years, had two accidents, and the first thing to contact the road was my head. I would not be here save for my helmet.

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I'm rarely one to support government intervention into telling us how to live in our own house or car....or in anything really.....but seatbelt laws are one area I do not have any problem with.

Regardless of what your particular experiences are, the hard facts and evidence is overwhelming........and I mean overwhelming in favor of seatbelts saving lives and minimizing injury. You will NEVER find facts to dispute this.

There is one exception and I admit I do not always use the lap belts in my 67 Buick but typically I'm not in high traffic areas and am driving very cautiously. If I'm driving through metro traffic I put it on.

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As I said before, it is not about safety, it is about choice. I usually wear my seat belt. But it annoys me immensely that I can drive all the way home with it on, pick up my mail, forget to buckle it for 2 blocks with no traffic at 20 mph down a side street, and can get a ticket and lecture from a cop. Then he does a U-turn in front of oncoming traffic, turns on his lights for no reason, and goes 65 mph in a 30 mph zone to meet his buddy at Dunkin Donuts.

Or I can sit in traffic for an extra 20 minutes making me late for work because the police have decided to set up an ambush roadblock. Of course motorcycles are exempt because they have so many safety features, unlike cars.

Edited by LINC400 (see edit history)

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I'm rarely one to support government intervention into telling us how to live in our own house or car....or in anything really.....but seatbelt laws are one area I do not have any problem with.

Regardless of what your particular experiences are, the hard facts and evidence is overwhelming........and I mean overwhelming in favor of seatbelts saving lives and minimizing injury. You will NEVER find facts to dispute this.

There is one exception and I admit I do not always use the lap belts in my 67 Buick but typically I'm not in high traffic areas and am driving very cautiously. If I'm driving through metro traffic I put it on.

So then you should be ticketed every time you drive your Buick.

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While the police like to make you think seat belt laws are a safety issue, it is not about safety. It is about revenue......If the police were truly concerned about safety, they would be happy this radio station was telling people to buckle up. They were not. Instead they threatened the radio station with legal action because they were afraid it might reduce their ambush revenue.

One corrupt police force doesn't make a corrupt society. Also the police don't want people buckling up just for the check points, or avoiding them. DUI checkpoints are never announced for the same reason.

IF (and I do mean IF) your police force is being used as a revenue collection service, it's being abused as much as the laws themselves. People don't get into law enforcement, with the training/education/danger/low pay/etc., to become glorified toll collectors. It's an insult to them if they are being used this way. More importantly, if they are being used this way it would be the users (your friendly neighborhood local politicians) that would put the kibosh on announcing the checkpoints. (Unless the police are working on a commission basis, in which case you have bigger problems!).

Bottom line, the CHOICE should be MINE.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Bottom line, it will be when YOU pay MY INSURANCE BILLS.

At least that's the "bottom line" everyone else has agreed on.

Edited by Dave@Moon
bad grammar (see edit history)

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It does to me also. Car companies are coming out with some strange stuff. Like the new Mercedes E Class that can stop on it's own with no assistance from the driver according to an ad I saw just tonight. Scary, very scary.

Susan, this is happening because people can't think for themselves anymore............it is scary!

On another note: It amazes me to no end why school buses don't have seat belts. I know in RI they don't, don't know about other states.

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Back in the good old days, the cave men didn’t have rules,

but you don’t see many cave men around any more!

Roger, now that's funny!!!!:D:D:D

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One corrupt police force doesn't make a corrupt society. Also the police don't want people buckling up just for the check points, or avoiding them. DUI checkpoints are never announced for the same reason.

IF (and I do mean IF) your police force is being used as a revenue collection service, it's being abused as much as the laws themselves. People don't get into law enforcement, with the training/education/danger/low pay/etc., to become glorified toll collectors. It's an insult to them if they are being used this way. More importantly, if they are being used this way it would be the users (your friendly neighborhood local politicians) that would put the kibosh on announcing the checkpoints. (Unless the police are working on a commission basis, in which case you have bigger problems!).

Bottom line, it will be when YOU pay MY INSURANCE BILLS.

At least that's the "bottom line" everyone else has agreed on.

You have obviously never lived in suburban Chicago where the crime rate is low and the police are quite bored. Granted not all cops are bad, but I worked for a gas station that held the contract for state and local police towing. They would come in and tell their stories. Some would make your skin crawl or blood boil. IE they just had to stop that hot chick in the covertible even though she wasn't doing anything wrong so that they could get a better look down her blouse. (and that is nothing compared to some stories) All they do around here is ticket. When they are actually needed for something, they are very slow to respond. That is not just one police dept. but most of the 15 around my specific area. Without getting into a big political discussion has someone heard something about an Illinois governor being corrupt?

As far as insurance, all they have to do is put in a clause that they don't have to pay if seat belts were not worn. They seem to find all kinds of clauses to get out of paying all the time.

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Without getting into a big political discussion has someone heard something about an Illinois governor being corrupt?

QUOTE]

Hey Linc, Isn't that where Ob........ Oh, never mind.:(

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under that thinking bake lights etc should be drivers choice?

The bake light on my oven is optional. You can turn it on or leave it off when baking.

Brake lights on cars ,however, are for the safety of other drivers. Seat belts are not. They only affect the person wearing or not wearing it.

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Without getting into a big political discussion has someone heard something about an Illinois governor being corrupt?

QUOTE]

Hey Linc, Isn't that where Ob........ Oh, never mind.:(

:D We're not going there.

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In my town this year, we have had 14 or 15 Traffic Fatalities so far.... We have had only 1 Murder. We must not be having too many checkpoints trying to collect all that revenue as you suspect.

At the risk of being offensive,

Linc400, Your observations do not sound like a police problem... It sounds like an Illinois problem, and perhaps specifically, a Chicago corruption problem.

And...

Dave, Thanks, I don't often agree with you, but you and I can agree on that one.

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In my town this year, we have had 14 or 15 Traffic Fatalities so far.... We have had only 1 Murder. We must not be having too many checkpoints trying to collect all that revenue as you suspect.

At the risk of being offensive,

Linc400, Your observations do not sound like a police problem... It sounds like an Illinois problem, and perhaps specifically, a Chicago corruption problem.

And...

Dave, Thanks, I don't often agree with you, but you and I can agree on that one.

Chicago currupt? A city where dead people vote, sometimes twice in the same election. Can't be. Yes it is an Illinois, Chicago, suburban, and police problem. They are not concerned about safety as they like to pretend. They are concerned about revenue. I imagine a lot of the police officers did not get their job because they wanted to write tickets. But they take to it very quickly. Probably there is a quota that they must meet. However, there are plenty that tell others about how stores that don't give them free stuff get much slower response times to calls or managers get pulled over more frequently for traffic violations. So it absolutely sickens me when they put up these roadblocks to generate revenue under the guise of public service or safety.

The station I was at gave them free coffee, let them use the phone, nap in the back lot (not kidding), and would give them donuts if we had some, which wasn't often. So I could drive 5-15 mph without being stopped or let off with a warning in the towns that we catered to. But I would get a ticket for going 34 in a 30 in the towns we didn't. In fact when I worked the overnight shift I would get stopped in these towns for no reason other than they were bored at night, and hoped they might find something.

As far as insurance, seat belts were not always the law in IL. However, when it became law, my premiums did not go down. In fact they went up and have continued to do so every year.

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Brake lights on cars ,however, are for the safety of other drivers. Seat belts are not. They only affect the person wearing or not wearing it.

Ah, but safety is hardly the limiting factor in how you effect others, is it? Has anyone even suggested that their saftey is compromised by someone else not wearing a seat belt? Or my example of walking accross a bridge on the railing for that matter?

There are plenty of ways you effect me when you don't wear your seat belt, not the least of which is financial. This isn't even an arguable point any more. Making it one, and representing it here as legitimate, effects me and our hobby negatively as well. It's all well and good to be an independent cowboy, but a thoughtless independent cowboy is a dangerous thing.

You can limit your focus to make the argument you want. It's a common practice in human relations and politics, one that often succeeds but never delivers positive results. icon13.gif

Edited by Dave@Moon
can't type (see edit history)

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On another note: It amazes me to no end why school buses don't have seat belts. I know in RI they don't, don't know about other states.

Here in W. Va. they passed a law and by this fall or next our school buses will have seatbelts. I know that in the past the members of the state board of education were worried that students might use the belts/buckles as a way to hurt other kids. But parents have lobbied that if kids must be in a booster seat or seatbelt in a car they should also be in one on a school bus.

I baby-sit for a total of seven kids in three families. I purchased a full booster seat complete with the back and arms for the five kids that are out of the car seat size. If I had to transport the two year old or the one year old I would have to borrow a carseat from the parents. I agree that the school board should provide the necessary protection for kids in their care.

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