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Question in Lebanon!


R W Burgess
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We had our AACA Round table at Lebanon on Friday, just before the judging school. If you've ever been to a national meet and missed the Round Table, you missed out. Current events and updates are shared with all and you can ask questions of all Board Members present, of which there were many in Tennessee. Sometimes the questions are tough, but I didn't see either Board Member run and hide! grin.gif

I was surprised to hear that the 10 point spread rule has been brought up again. I assume the board is questioning members about this. I'm not real clear on the details. I'll say from my point of view as a very green judge, I like the way the rules are now. I'm kind of old fashioned, you know? I hate change. The Internet drives me crazy. By the time I figure something out, they change it....sorry.... make it "BETTER", they claim. grin.gif (Ran into a fellow last week that said, he wouldn't let his PC update changes! smile.gif )

Anyway, I was just surprised that we were even considering this idea. Again, personally, I say, if the system works, why change it? To encourage new members? Maybe so, but it would be easier, in my opinion, to show them the advantages of what we have to offer.

I'd say our system works pretty good. It was really cool to see all of those show car transport trailers headed back east and north on I-40 and I-81 yesterday. Yes, our show car trailers outnumbered those big truck carriers. It made my chest swell with pride to know I was a part of this great organization. I'd say, we're being noticed!

Spread the Word! wink.gif

Wayne

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Well if people hate the 10 point spread, they'll really be crying the blues when they get to an AGNM and get bitten by the 5 point spread. With the AGNM you can score a 394 and lose a 1st AGNM even though you have earned enough points for a Senior AGNM. The nice thing about winning a 1st AGNM award is knowing that the issue with competition is over, and the only one to beat at that point is yourself.

The problem is when you show up to a meet to have your vehicle point judged, you'd best be at the top of your game. If a 400 point vehicle shows up, you are in trouble if your vehicle isn't as good as it can be.

In most cases, if your vehicle is good enough to win a Senior AGNM, you'll most likely never have any issues no matter what anyone else scores. If there are people complaining about the 10 point rule now, and that rule gets eliminated, then they'll start complaining at the AGNM instead.

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With the 10 point rule you are competing with the other cars in your class going for the same award NOT only the judging sheet.I'm in favor of doing away with the 10 point spread and if a car meets the requirment for the award they would win it regardless of the other cars in the class.

I have disscussed this with many people and most,not all, would like a change.

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Fine with me !!! Just set the standard and stick to it.Don't say you need 365 points for an award AND be within 10 points of the highest scoring car. I know of a car that got its first jr. that I wouldn't have thought could have done better than third.When it won, there was only one other car in its class and it was in worst shape. I think the owner will be surprsed when he goes for a senior.

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I am no expert. The following is my personal analysis based on my experience and what I have heard from others on this subject.

I think that I understand the reason for the 10 point rule and I also think that I understand why many people would like to see the 10 point rule go away.

If the 10 point rule went away, I think the minimum points for an award would need to go up. The arguments for and against have been discussed (maybe fussed would be a more accurate description) here before.

The current system rewards the top scoring car in a class, as "1st place", Multiple awards are allowed, as they are, in my opinion, being recognized as essentially "ties" in the competition.

In my opinion, The reason for the 10 point rule is to allow for the fact that human judges are not perfect, it basically considers anything within 10 points as a "tie", for the award, minimizing the potential human error from failing to correctly distinguish who should receive an award when cars are restored to a very similar level of quality.

If you eliminate the 10 point rule and simply make anything over a certain number of points a "1st place" car, you have removed the effect of whoever happens to be on the showfield competing against you, thus eliminating the showfield competition between cars, but some folks would argue that this "cheapens" the competition process.

One argument that has been made in the past is that if you don't have to worry about that unknown potential competition, an owner would be tempted to cut some corners on a restoration and just restore it "just good enough" to get an award, instead of as good as possible.

The basic question is if the desired result is more cars earning trophys, or if the desired result is stiff competition for trophys. I don't know that one way or the other is necessarily better, they are just both different.

Personally, I took an older restoration Model A Ford and brought it back to the level where it has gone from 1st Junior through Senior Grand National without ever having a problem with the 10 point rule. (I did go through a little bit of checking out the competition along the way and worrying am I OK or not, but I managed to always get the award that I was seeking.) Now, I have been driving it more and enjoying it. Next year, I will whip it back into shape and hope to worry my way to Repeat Senior Grand National.

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Wow, it took my a while to type that last one...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Olds 442</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't say you need 365 points for an award AND be within 10 points of the highest scoring car. </div></div>

That is not quite how I see it. What First Place means is you are the highest point car in your class (or within 10 points to tie to make up for the potential human error) and you must have an absolute minimum score of 365 for that First Place, to prevent a poor condition car from inappropriately receiving that trophy if it has no competition.

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I was too busy typing my lengthy reply to be the first to suggest that a 1st would have to require a higher number of points if the 10 point rule were eliminated.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Restorer32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In that case a First should require 400 points. </div></div>

Maybe not 400, but it would have to be considerably higher than the current minimum score for a 1st.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In that case a First should require 400 points</div></div> That wouldn't be a good move. I have judged on occassions where I've heard other judges say "<span style="font-style: italic">there's no such thing as a perfect vehicle, so I'm always going to take off for something</span>." With that type of mentality, there are a lot of people who would never get anything. Some of the other marque clubs have 100 point judging where other clubs have a lot higher point requirement than ours.

The 10 points can hurt you when you point judge your vehicle, but not as bad as the 5 point rule.

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I want an AACA First or Senior to still mean something. In my opinion it has become easier and easier to achieve First Place Award status over the last few years. I know the current social trend is to give everyone an award so as not to damage their "self esteem" but I would like to see a finer distinction made between 1st, 2nd and 3rd. We seem to award a great number of 1sts and very few 2nds and 3rds. While having a reputation as the easiest club to win an award through might be good for increasing membership I think it is self defeating in the long term. Just my humble opinion of course, based on 30 years restoring and 72? judging credits.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While having a reputation as the easiest club to win an award through might be good for increasing membership </div></div> Never heard that one....

To get people to look at the other side of the spectrum, I'd rather deal with the 10 point spread rather than only having one First Place Winner, One Second Place winner, one third place winner, and everyone else goes home with nothing.

At almost any other show you go to, that's the way it is, so maybe the ones against this might want to pick and choose their battles. If AACA went to only three winners per class (1st, 2nd & 3rd), people would be losing more than they are with the 10 point spread now. If we had that alternative, it would take people <span style="font-weight: bold">YEARS</span> to win their awards.

Personally the 10 point rule not only protects vehicles from being misjudged, but it also protects the owners of the orphan vehicles that are competing against other vehicles where parts aren't as readilly available. In the truck class, you can have a REO truck competing against a Ford. Well most people know that Ford parts are more available than REO trucks, so which of the two should look nicer on the showfield??

As I've said before, if your vehicle is good enough to win a Senior Grand National Award (the Highest Award that you can win in AACA), you will have no issues going for a 1st Junior or a Senior Award. The people who get mad about not getting their 1st Junior or their Senior Award will only switch to being mad about not getting their 1st AGNM. Removing the 10 point spread will only take the complaints to a higher level.

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I can understand when owners go to a show and they see a vehicle with an AACA First Junior tab on it and it is in rougher shape than their vehicle, and they haven't been able to get a First Junior, that they are upset. It doesn't seem quite fair. It has to be hard to deal with that.

But it does happen like in the case of Matt Wilson's Rambler SC/Rambler race car. It was a rainy day, there was only one other car in the class and his was the highest point car of the two and made the minimum for a first place so he got it. But in his case he knows that his car would not have won at a show where there are more in his class. He also knows that he will never get a Senior Award until he restores the car. He is fine with that. But I bet there are owners that walk by his car and see the tab on it and wonder "why can't I get one?"

I'm not sure how to fix that. Maybe keep the ten point spread but raise the minimum points needed for a first.

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Well put Susan. The point is AACA says you are not in competition with any other vehicle when with the 10 point rule you are. I too was the recipient of a gift first place with and Amphicar in 1990 at Hershey, it was pouring rain so hard, most cars did not come on the field and it was rain too hard to judge the one that did.

The car should be judged on its own merits not against another car, As some cars are catalog cars and some cars no parts are available for. If you a 57 Chevy capable of getting 365 points, you know it will never win a first as every show there will be a 400 or close 57 Chevy in your class.

I am in favor of putting the first at say 375 (for argument sake) and everybody over 375 wins a first.

With the current 10 point rule you can have a car that earns 365 points and not even get a 3rd it you have a 400, a 389 and a 378 point cars in your class.

Say what you will but it takes $$$ to make a 400 point car.

A hobbyist or home restoration can do a 375 point car on a budget.

What part of the Hobby is AACA after people who love cars or people with deep pockets?

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It is a fallacy to assume that "people with deep pockets" can't also love cars. I have seen cars restored by "deep pockets" that would have not been restored otherwise. $150K restorations on cars worth 1/3 that amount or even less. You have to love cars to do that, don't you agree? Very few cars are restored with profit in mind. "Fixed up" maybe, restored no.

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As I reread my post I don’t think I stated that as well as I could have or said what I was thinking.

To restate it:

Are national awards going to be only for the car lovers with deep pockets or is there room for the car lover who works every night after work in his garage on a budget, and makes and modifies part to work because he cannot afford to do it perfect.

There will always be Concours d'Elegance for the perfect cars that the amateur restorer will never be invited to so don’t make AACA out of reach to younger hobbyist.

The average younger guy with two kids can not afford to put 3 times what a car is worth in to it.

They may not make money or get anything for their time but they need to break even on expenditures. There needs to be somewhere (AACA) to show their cars and have the satisfaction of accomplishment and to a lot of people that may be a trophy.

An AACA First Nation has never been given only to perfect cars.

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Jay,

I realize that there are different opinions on this issue. I am not 100% convinced that the system needs to be changed, and I am not 100% sure that it needs to be left alone.

Somewhere, people get the idea that in AACA judging, you are not supposed to be competing against other cars. That is not correct. Clearly a car on the showfield does, in fact, compete against other cars in its class. I don't know if that is good, bad, or indifferent, but that is what happens.

I have never been to a "Concours d'Elegance", but as I understand it, they do not cater to "perfect" cars, they cater more to what could probably be called "beautiful" cars. I think that they normally compete with closed hoods so the engine compartment need not be anywhere near perfect.

I don't want to sound argumentative.

I am a Police Lieutenant. I am 48 years old. I don't make as much money as I could in the private sector. I have two kids and a disabled wife. I do not have deep pockets.

I have a Senior Grand National winning 1929 Model A Ford Phaeton. I bought it as an older restoration that had never been entered in a national show. I re-restored it myself at night and on weekends in my home garage (it still has the 1989 Paint job... but I did a lot of touch up painting) and successfully competed with it never having a problem with the 10 point rule. The total that I have invested in the car is less than 2/3 of the appraised value of the car. It is not perfect, but I take pride in doing my best, within my resources, to make it as authentic a representation of a 1929 Model A Ford as I can make it.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jay Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well put Susan. The point is AACA says you are not in competition with any other vehicle when with the 10 point rule you are. I too was the recipient of a gift first place with and Amphicar in 1990 at Hershey, it was pouring rain so hard, most cars did not come on the field and it was rain too hard to judge the one that did.

The car should be judged on its own merits not against another car, As some cars are catalog cars and some cars no parts are available for. If you a 57 Chevy capable of getting 365 points, you know it will never win a first as every show there will be a 400 or close 57 Chevy in your class.

I am in favor of putting the first at say 375 (for argument sake) and everybody over 375 wins a first.

With the current 10 point rule you can have a car that earns 365 points and not even get a 3rd it you have a 400, a 389 and a 378 point cars in your class.

Say what you will but it takes $$$ to make a 400 point car.

A hobbyist or home restoration can do a 375 point car on a budget.

What part of the Hobby is AACA after people who love cars or people with deep pockets?

</div></div>

Probably the same people that said lets take the car show at hershey off the pavement and put it on mud while the vendors get the high and dry paved areas. Makes perfect sense to me have thousands of dollars cars sink into mud, then possibly get damaged towing them out while the vendors who dont even spend the whole weekend anymore get prime location and dont have to worry about getting irreplaceable cars repaired. Being sarcastic, but I hope I get my point across.

Although we have not been effected by the 10 point rule, the 5 point rule did come up and bite us in the behind as we were informed by someone that there were a couple 400 point cars at the grand national show we were at and that we were just below where we needed to be. Again, this is word of mouth but I take it from a very credible source. So, yes, we were above the minimum amount of points to get our First Junior GN award but because of the 5 point rule and a perfect scoring car, we ended up getting a second. Now when we got a copy of the judging sheet, the areas that were highlighted we went over and yes, even though there were some "issues" with the car, some of them could have been done like that at the factory. Lets face it, there are people who restore their cars to factory specs meaning orange peel, paint runs, etc. Cars back then were not perfect as they were popping them out at an average of 1 car per minute from the facts I have based on my 69 charger. Were panels misaligned at the factory, possibly. Were incorrect items installed, possibly. Ive found it all depends on the judges and the outcome of what they "perceive" to be correct. There was a perfect article a couple years ago when there was a judging seminar that involved a brand new either Saturn or Pontiac car and the judges went over the car judging it. Mind you this was a brand new car that had only a couple miles on it. 99% of the judges deducted points even though it was a brand new, delivered car that had not been really driven other than on and off trailers. If I remember correctly, it was only one judge who spoke up and said that he/she would give the car a perfect score. Why a pefect score?!?!?! The car had weld splatter and such on the engine and other blems throughout the car! The judges reasoning was because it was that way as delivered and manufactured therefore, no points should have been deducted.

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The point of displaying a new car from a dealership as part of the judges training, was exactly as you indicate... to show that "as delivered from the factory" does not mean perfect.

I think that was used a few times. I don't think that it is accurate that 99% of the judges thought that there should be points deducted, but there were some people that certainly learned something when it was explained that those minor imperfections, were as delivered from the factory. I think it was a very good teaching tool for some judges, but as I recall my observations at one of those sessions, there were a lot of folks who correctly realized that they were looking at a 400 point car.

I think that the real issue is teaching judges not to be nit-picky. That is always being taught and will probably have to continue to be taught forever.

Judging never makes everybody happy, not on a showfield, not at a county fair, and not even in a courtroom. Never will everybody agree totally with the results of any judge(s).

It would be nice if there was a simply perfect solution to make everybody happy about the judging guidelines, but unfortunately, there is not a perfect system that will make everybody happy.

The only hope we have is to make the best system that will yield the most consistent results and make as many people as possible feel that the system was fair and appropriate.

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ted,

What do you mean by "the way the AACA seems to want it"...

The Judging Guidelines call for every car to be the way it "could have left the factory". That IS the way AACA wants it!

How individual human beings seem to intrepret "How it could have left the factory" is the huge grey area that causes controversy.

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I've only achieved 50 credits in 14 years, but 14 of them came at Hershey. And we all know how tough Hershey is. Almost as tough as an AGNM. In those years I been priveliged to see 3 400 point cars, and all 3 went on to AGNM firsts. I also seen the 400 point car set the standard for the class of juniors. A tough break for the others, but our judging system is FAIR. We judge the car againist itself, not againist the others in the class. In short the judging point system as it is presently set up is working. I personally don't see a reason for a change.

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Semi-Intelligent,

I agree that we do not compare one car to another car. We judge from the car to the sheet and make deductions as appropriate.

I am also not convinced that anything needs to be changed.

But the cars do "compete" against each other for awards. That is why everybody does not get a 1st. In most competitions, you have winners and losers. In our system, multiple awards are awarded as long as the cars are restored to a close level (within 10 points) which reduces the impact of any minor human errors in the process.

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I've been on both sides of this issue. I've been bitten by the point spread more times than I care to admit, including for an AGNM award.

As I think about the situation, I think that my problem is more with the over restoration of some vehicles has become the new standard for factory correct. My 73 Ford has runs in the inner fender from the factory. They are only visible when the hood is open so the factory wouldn't consider it a flaw that should be fixed. But I get nailed for paint every time. My decision now is that the car has gone as far as it will go in AACA as a Senior car. I don't know that I will ever take that car to and AGNM again. I refuse to repaint the car because it is an original paint car. In fact, the car is unrestored. I have detailed some items like the exhaust manifolds and I have cleaned some chassis components, but the car has never been apart or restored. It still carries its original belts and hoses.

I'm not saying that the system needs changed, although I haved said that in the past. I think that it is more important to hold the judges accountable for evaluating the cars as they COULD have come from the factory. It's not the evaluation system that's broken. Restoring cars is supposed to be a fun hobby (and it is for me), but just because it's fun doesn't mean that it should be easy. We shouldn't become an organization that just hands out awards. The awards should be earned. It's the evaluation of your efforts in preparing a car that needs to be fair.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stan Kulikowski</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We shouldn't become an organization that just hands out awards. The awards should be earned. It's the evaluation of your efforts in preparing a car that needs to be fair. </div></div>

Stan, last year I put together this list as a handout to the field judges if I am the Team Captain. The first paragraph says the same thing you do.

<span style="font-weight: bold">YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES AS A FIELD JUDGE</span>

<span style="color: #FF0000">First and foremost, it is our duty to fairly and equally appraise the authenticity and workmanship of the vehicles the owners have brought to this show. Based on the work we do, awards will be given to worthy vehicles and their owners. We are not here to give awards to vehicles that do not meet the standards set by the AACA.</span>

Please remember, you are never to reveal scores outside of this team. You never know who knows who. Anyone caught revealing scores will be banned from judging at all future shows according to AACA rules.

We have all made friends in this hobby. You may at some point end up judging the vehicle of one of those friends. It is unacceptable to let a friendship sway your judging. Please do not engage in conversations with owners, especially owners that you know personally. Other owners in the class will view this as suspect even if it isn’t.

Please do not nit-pick the cars, but also do no let deductions slide that should be taken. This is where the fairly and equally comes in.

Remember, we are not to take deductions on a hunch that something is wrong. We must be very sure of even a one point deduction. Documentation is the burden of the owner on questioned items.

Be aware of anyone that comes around you when you are judging. Owners are not above bringing friends or relatives to spy on us. Camera phones are now everywhere as are video cameras with sensitive microphones and telephoto lenses. It is best to carry your clipboard against your chest, or put a plain piece of paper over the judging sheets, when not writing on it.

We do not enter vehicles for any reason. Doors should be closed gently with your hand on the handle to guide it if you are the interior judge. Never lean on any part of a vehicle.

The JUDGED sticker is to be placed on the card on the windshield only.

Please speak in a low voice, facing away from the owner when you report your deductions. That way they cannot read lips or tape what is being said.

Remember many were far from perfect when they left the factory.

Susan W. Linden

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Susan,

The only thing I can add since you brought up "Documentation is the burden of the owner on questioned items." is that I have an issue with that. 2 of our 3 antique cars have a difficult time with factory documentation. Chrysler had a fire at its warehouse where they stored all old material and documentation and lost all information from 1968 up to the mid 1970's. Granted, I have been purchasing anything and everything that I can documentation wise for our 69 charger and 70 challenger but I am certain there was a lot of information that was lost and will never be seen again. Now what happens in that case? Say a judge has a question pertaining to something on my car that I do not have factory documentation for which no longer exists? I am supposed to have points deducted for something that I copied off of an unrestored car vs. having actual non existant paperwork to back me on that is no longer around? Granted, this is a pretty rare instance and I always try to make the team captain of this fact well before they start judging the car.

Our 70 el camino SS396 has a black bucket seat interior in it. We were lucky enough to find NOS seat backs for it. Now they came in orginal GM boxes. We opened up the box and it had a long scratch down the outside part of the seat back. Now this was inside a cardboard box and was brand new. My point is I am pretty sure at the AGNM that was in Dover, this issue had us get a point or some kind of deduction. To me, this would be a vaild argueable point as to the condition it would have been delivered in. If this part came packaged with a large scratch, reasonably speaking, couldn't the factory have installed a part like this?

Not trying to reinvent the wheel but just trying to open peoples minds and think outside the box. I am not agreeing that every car that shows up on the field get an automatic first place for bringing the car out but if your car reaches a certain set score, you should receive that award. Yes, the cars are competing against themselves vs. factory standards but at the same time, you have to get within a certain score of other cars in your class. How is one supposed to compete with say a Chevelle that has almost every part reproduced now to say our 70 challenger that harldy has any parts reproduced? One person has a clear advantage over the other with repro'd parts and availability while the other has to "settle" for a better part than what they had in the car before. Most importantly, these cars back in the day were assembled by people like you and I. Errors occurred. Assembly was sloppy at best. Things were forgotten (like the wire harness holding tabs on my firewall that were never tack welded in on my charger). Heck, my driver side frame rail on the charger had the holes punched in the metal for the screws to hold the starter motor splash shield. I noticed that I was missing my splash shield so I purchased one and installed it only to find that the holes never had any threads cut into them. So now my car has a splash shield in the factory correct spot that was never (but supposed to be) installed at the factory.

I am a judge at my local region shows and also judge at GM and Mopar events. When judging a car, the main thing I keep in my mind is reasonable doubt. If I see something that raises a question in my mind, the first thing I think is "Could this have been installed in this fasion? With human involvement, could something have happend while it was made?

Yes, it is hard to imagine what could have been but just think of the projects that you have had to do, be it your own car or projects around the house. Were any or ALL of them built or done perfectly without any flaws? Do you cut corners at your own job to get home early or come back to work late from a lunch one day? Well, the assembly line workers were just like you and me. It was just a job to them, they were not concerned about building a factory SHOW car umteen years ago, let alone today. Heck, I've seen cars today that are assembled by robots come through with shoddy work.

PS- sorry for the long rant and length of my reply.

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Concerning the Ten Point Rule…

It is very discouraging when one brings a car many miles to a show, seeking a First Junior for the third (or more) time, and KNOWING that it scores high enough to earn the award, but then the multi-millionaire pulls his latest project out of the trailer and parks it next to you. He then walks off to unload the next car, leaving his “minder” behind to dust and polish the car, and provide minute-by-minute updates via cell phone as the judging proceeds. Don’t believe it? I am an eyewitness to it, and can provide names, dates, and locations.

When the Ten Point Rule bites you yet again, you begin to wonder when you should stop beating your head against the wall and give up, since there always is the perfect car in your class. And then, to enhance the bitterness, you read in the Meet Results about the show out west, where 80 cars show up, and none in your class, and you KNOW you would have gotten that First if only you could have taken a week off work and somehow, at great expense, taken the car there.

We had a (mostly) civil discussion about this topic two years ago. Check the archives under the title Ten Point Rule, and it may come up.

Now, understand, I admire those individuals who have the interest and means to completely restore 3 or 4 cars a year, just as a hobby to kill time. More power to them, and my thanks, for preserving automotive history. But please don’t tell me that we are not competing against each other. As has been stated, it can work to the disadvantage of those cars in a class that are more unique, and have fewer parts available, or to those classes that currently have many restorations – that is to say, there are many 1960s cars now competing for 1st Junior, but not too many Brass era. Which is more likely to be affected by the Ten Point Rule?

Part of all this is in how one reads the judging guidelines. The manual states that the top scoring car will be #1, with others “allowed” the same award IF they 1) are above the minimum points, and 2) they are within the 10 point spread from the top scoring car in the category. So, do we look at it as the Ten Point Rule “helps” the good-but-not-as-perfect cars, or as denying “deserving” cars their due, since they achieved the minimum points. I will confess that in the discussion 2 years ago, I took one position, but after having read the Judging Book more closely, I have backed off. Some might call this a “Flip-Flop”, but maybe then I can now run for President.

And while I’m up here on this soapbox, I’ll also mention how frustrating it can be when judging only takes into account “appearances”, but give no credit to operations. That incorrect glossy over restored engine compartment on the next car over may look good, but what about the hours and blood I spent in getting the 48 year old cruise control and automatic headlight dimmers to work? That counts for naught. The thing is, it would be impossible and impractical to test all systems on all cars, especially at the bigger meets. Leave that for the specific Marque meets. And also, how does one compare a “loaded” car that may or may not have all systems operational, with a “Price Leader” that doesn’t have any of those systems at all?

Bottom line – I don’t have the answers, or the solution. We can gripe all we want to, but unless we actually propose workable solutions, we have no right to complain. I think the system, as it stands now, is as good a compromise as can be created. The judges devote a lot of time and effort, and can’t be expected to know every factory detail about every type of car they may encounter in their class.

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Thank you Matt. I used to try to remember all of that at the breakfast. Now I just hand the team a copy of it and ask them to read it as a reminder of some important items.

If you or anyone else would like to use the list, feel free to copy it, put your name on it and hand it out.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: resq302</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Susan,

The only thing I can add since you brought up "Documentation is the burden of the owner on questioned items." is that I have an issue with that...say a judge has a question pertaining to something on my car that I do not have factory documentation for which no longer exists? I am supposed to have points deducted for something that I copied off of an unrestored car vs. having actual non existant paperwork to back me on that is no longer around? </div></div>

resq302, We have to have rules about questioned items or slick talkers could spin a great tale about what is on their vehicle. But even with that in mind remember this line in my list.

<span style="color: #3333FF">Remember, we are not to take deductions on a hunch that something is wrong. We must be very sure of even a one point deduction. Documentation is the burden of the owner on questioned items. </span>

A Team Captain can accept what the owner says. Having photos from an unrestored car would be helpful. Factory literature is the gold standard as far as accepted documentation. Remember too, you may be able to get correct information from the AACA Library and Research Center. AND, if you are an AACA member you get some research for free. Copies can be made and mailed to you for a small fee.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: quadfins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And also, how does one compare a “loaded” car that may or may not have all systems operational, with a “Price Leader” that doesn’t have any of those systems at all? </div></div>

The "loaded" vehicle stands to lose points in more places than the "Price Leader" simply because there are more things to deduct for if they are not in good conditon. smirk.gif They do not get extra points at AACA shows for having every option on them.

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Much has been said about the "millionair's 400 point car" killing everyone else's chance at an award because of the 10 point rule.

I just don't think that's the case for several reasons. First of all "your" car is NOT being judged "against" the 400 point car. It is being judged against it's own quality and correctness and will stand, or not, on it's own merits.

Second, I've seen lots of mega buck "restorations" and while they actually stagger me at first glance when you think about it they are actually over restored and get no extra credit for their trouble. Since they get no "extra credit" they in no way drag down your point total.

In fact the 10 point rule acts as a scoreing handicap, much like a golf handicap in that if your car gets within 10 points of the mega buck restoration you get THE SAME AWARD AND RECOGNITION that he does. Think about it.

The actual judging in the AACA, and the point requirements, in my opinion, are both fair and liberal. Especially when compared with single marque clubs where the judges have both the time and inclination to dwell on minutia, sometimes to the point of absurdity.

Third, the argument that you have to be a millionaire to do well in the AACA show arena just is not true. In my own case two of my cars are GN seniors, one is a senior awaiting the Nats, and one of them is a national award recipient. All of them started out as crusher bait and none of them has ever seen the inside of a restoration shop. Almost all the work has been done by myself and I would judge it as "average" when put up against a professional restoration shop's work. Yet my average cars carry the same amount of hardware on the grill as the mega buckers.

So if the 10 point rule is repeatedly keeping you from that coveted grill badge maybe it's time to work on the little point stealers that are keeping you from 390. Then it won't matter who shows up with what mega buck car........Bob

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bhigdog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....maybe it's time to work on the little point stealers that are keeping you from 390. Then it won't matter who shows up with what mega buck car........Bob</div></div>

Good point Bhigdog. Here is the link to a thread I started several years ago about that very subject. Lots of people contributed to it. It is a great read for anyone getting bitten by the ten point rule.

http://forums.aaca.org/ubbthreads.php/topics/280555/Little_things_that_will_cost_y#Post280555

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Stan, By all means if you like it use it and put your name on it. It saves time at the brakfast and gives the judges a sense of what you expect from them as they perform their duties. And it is a good reminder about being careful as they judge.

Good luck on the Certified Team Captain certification. smile.gif I was Team Captain at Gettysburg which was the fifth time I needed to complete the process. Hopefully I will get my pin at Hershey. It is my understanding that once a person has completed the C.T.C. program they may not be a Team Captain at times to make room for folks like you that are just starting out with it.

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There were similar complaints in the Vintage Chevrolet Club of America a few years ago. We installed a threshold (we are on a 1000 point system) and all car scoring 975 or higher move up. It eliminated all of these complaints. Something to consider. I don't care what anyone says, AACA judging is head to head, becasue everything is still based on the highest point car.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stan Kulikowski</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... and oh so much to learn! </div></div>

And the learning continues with every vehicle you judge, every person you judge with, every Team Captain you serve with and every person you are Team Captain for.

And here's the funny thing about those people you serve with, among them very well may be folks (including you smile.gif ) that will rise to the top of the AACA. smile.gif

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Biscayne John, If I understand your post correctly, your Vintage Chevrolet Club of America (VCCA) scoring example computes to a requirement of 97.5% of the possible points for a first.

If that standard were adopted with the AACA's 400 point system, that would require a score of 390 points for a first. I don't think that is necessarily unreasonable, but that would be a lot tougher standard than what we have now.

If you had a 390 point car, the 10 point rule could never keep you from getting an award. So, I guess the question would be.... Would people be happier to have fewer cars receive awards, as opposed to the current system where more cars can receive an award as long as there is not a high scoring car to knock them out of awards contention?

So which is more preferred, more awards, or fewer awards but slightly more predictability?

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Well that is part of the rule, all cars move up over 975, if there are no cars over 975 and they are over 901 then only the highest point car moves on. In that case it is head to head. We do not have anywhere near the number of cars that the AACA has at a meet. It does not have to be 97.5%, that works for us. Keep in mind we deduct for the incorrect headlights and battery unlike the AACA. What we lack in competition the judging form attempts to make up for. I am the National Judging Chair for the VCCA, and I am pretty proud of our system, it works well for us and we are always making adjustments when needed. We also return the actual form with the deductions, scores, comments and notes to every owner, to help them understand things better. I know that this is a sore subject in the AACA.

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