Jump to content

Help identify an engine


Guest Xprefix28truck

Recommended Posts

Guest Xprefix28truck

Can anyone identify this engine? It has been converted to pump water. Everything above the spark plugs has been added on. The cylinders are cast seperate. There are 2 plugs per cylinder. Any ideas? Thanks, Kent

post-59090-143138063696_thumb.jpg

post-59090-143138063704_thumb.jpg

post-59090-143138063706_thumb.jpg

post-59090-143138063713_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Xprefix28truck

I thought that at first, but the cylinders are water cooled. Not air cooled. Not sure they made a water cooled airplane. I think the crank was cut and the cap was added.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kent,

I am at a loss to figure out what is going on with this vintage mechanical device. It appears to be a modification of an internal combustion engine, that is now driven by an external power source, to operate a positive displacement water pump. I don't think that the spark plugs serve any purpose other than to close off the port.

Grandpa

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Xprefix28truck

Grandpa, Your absolutely correct!! This is a modified internal combustion engine that has been converted {in 1933} to pump water. It is now powered by a 10 foot diameter water wheel. It hasn't seen use since the 1950's. I originally thought converted car engine. Now I'm not sure. Maybe boat? Maybe airplane? I didn't know they made water cooled airplanes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the most informative references on early aircraft engines is L J K Setright's "The Power to Fly", ISBN 0 04 338041 7. Wright brothers'engine was water cooled, as was Charles Manly 's quite astonishing cylinder 5 radial, a work of genius with total displacement of 540 cubic inches which produced over 52bhp for hours on end for total mass of 208lb including waterworks! Langley's aircraft that it was built for for not succesful, and ended in the Potomac due to accident during its trolley launching. This engine looks a bit similar in style to the FIAT engine in an early Farman, but to identify it reliably you would have to find a copy of Glen A Angle's 1920 book in a library somewhere, which has a title similar to √čncyclopedia of Aircraft Engines".

Ivan Saxton

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kent,

Some additional observations: (1) Duel spark plugs would point to an aircraft engine. (2) The original internal combustion engine appears to have a small bore with a long stroke. This design is typical of low-revving aircraft engines. (3) The lack of visible valve train parts may indicate a sleeve valve engine design.

Grandpa

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kent,

Here is some more information to consider. Visit:

http://www.enginehistory.org/pioneering_sleeve_valve.htm

This web site is for the Aircraft Engine Historical Society. The web link, above, is to an article on early sleeve valve aircraft engines. Check out the photographs and drawings, some of which have similarities to the engine in your forum post.

Grandpa

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Burt/McCollum link is interesting. I understand that their simultaneous invention independantly of the single sleeve valve engine lead to agreement for a joint patent. However, the person who did most to develope and promote the single sleeve valve engine was Rickardo, who recognised the potential of that Argyll aero engine, and designed the ball/socket connection for accurately moving the sleeves. In 1941 Napier's H patten 24 cylinder Sabre engine had been developed to produce 5500 bhp at 4200rpm at 45psi boost and a bmep of 467 psi. This was sme 15% higher bhp/litre than the RollsRoyce Merlin could prodce for a matter of minutes some years later. And the Napier was frequently run up to 500psi bmep, and was unstressed below 4500rpm. These must have been the most powerful piston engines over a wide rev range ever made anywhere. Now if you look at the section of the Knight double sleeve engine, it is quite obvious that the only place a spark plug can operate is in the junk head, which is also the most ideal place. Therefore I must doubt that this converted engine could ever have been a sleeve valve. Rather it is probable that there should have been a single head with overhead camshaft bolted to the cylinders.

The Knight engine has been described as a mechanical monstrosity. The very first tanks in WW1 had such Daimler sleeve valve engines, and the clouds of oil smoke whenever they were driven provided a great position reference for enemy artillery. And all Kight engined cars except those like Voisin and Minerva suffered this problem to some extent. (There is a method I have described previously in another thread to overcome this, but the materials and technology were not available at that time). I'll try to get soneone to scan and post the photo of a FIAT engine in a Farman plane, because it is very close to this engine. Ivan Saxton

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Xprefix28truck

Ivan and Grandpa, Thank you for the information. There is so much on the engine to consider. I guess it might make it easier if I told the whole story on this engine. This engine resides at Charlie Teetors house. Charlie Teetor is the one that started Perfect Circle. Also they were the ones responsible for Teetor Hartley Motor Company. They made engines for many manufacturers here in Indiana. I have secured this engine, but have not moved it. Being at Charlie Teetors personal house is why I originally thought it must be a revamped car engine. I do know they donated many aircraft engines during the scrap drives. But they were engines sent to them by other companies in later years to test piston rings. And that would have been at a later date than when this was converted. I don't know why, but this engine has a very familiar look to it. I have checked pictures that I have of Teetor engines, but none like it. I agree with Ivan that in order to be the sleeve style engine the plugs would need to be in the head. But I have never seen any place for a cam setup. Although the narrow mounting flange is making me wonder what the heck it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Xprefix28truck

Grandpa, Thanks!! I've been looking for a site that might help out.. I will post more pics when I get it home...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Xprefix28truck

Definately looks close!! I have been searching and searching but can't find many pictures to look at. let alone of engines. Thanks Ivan!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Xprefix28truck

This is a copy from the Teetor book I just read again for the fourth time. If you notice in the picture one of the engines donated for the scrap drive was a fiat. It apears to be a 6 cylinder. So Ivan you might be on the right track...

post-59090-143138064265_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kent,

I would like to pass along an observation of the engine to ID. The crankcase external webbing, on the side of the engine facing the camera, has an open area in the center. More than likely that was the location of a single updraft carburetor and the intake manifold.

Grandpa

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Xprefix28truck

Grandpa, I want to thank you for hanging in there with me. You too Ivan, All your help has really been appreciated. I got an email back from A.E.H.S I take it you did too grandpa? I looked through 572 pages of the Airplane Engine Encyclopedia. The only thing that comes close is the Hall Scott model A7A. But the plugs are in the heads on that engine. The A.E.H.S. is thinking pre 1920. So i will really need to get it home and go from there, looking for info on the engine. For now I will let this thread die out {since this is a car site} until I get it home. Thanks again!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...