Need more decisions concerning the 63 vs 64

[tjthorson]

OK. Dad came over yesterday and I (we) proceeded to begin teardown on the 64. Overall not "too" bad. As suspected, the font and rear floors are both gone in the middles. The trans hump and inner rockers all look fine and are unmolested. Saw a bunch of glass under the carpet and seats, I suspect the rear window had been broken, as the rear window does not leak and has a ton of fresh, black goop around the edges.

I know I need floor pans, and classicfabrication doesnt have any pictures of how big the pans are and how far they cover. Anyone have any pics? I think i need all 6 floor pan pieces and the outer rockers.

I ripped off some bondo - i need both rear quarters, at least up to and arond the wheel wells. This is where the next question comes in. I still have that all-original parked since 1972 63 riviera in the garage. the only thing I am "robbing" that car of so far for the 64 is two exterior chrome trim pieces and the door panels. Do you think (or does anyone want) this original 63? If I can recoup $$$ to assist with the bodywork and paint on the 64 it will be worth it. Otherwise I could cut the rear quarters, grab the fenders, and rockers, floorpan, etc off the 63....

If anyone is interested in the 63 - please email me - todd@toddware.com

I think I should keep the 63 all together and sell it. But I need a buyer - what would you do?

[tjthorson]

More....

I just hate to cut up an all original, one owner, 67000 mile 63. The nailhead is torn down and ready for reassembly. It does not need to be bored, crank is unturned, all stock 401 that only needed a rebuild because it sat for so long.... I have most of the parts for the rebuild as well, rings, bearings, gaskets, oil pump. The crank needs to be polished because during the teardown I nicked two rod journals with a rod bolt. Block is clean and honed. heads are untouched. Carb was perfect and clean..... The car will for sure need new brake lines, fuel line, master cylinder, radiator, and exhaust. All the electrical appeared to work when I got the car, including the wonderbar radio and power antenna.

[John]

Maybe you should be restoring the 63 instead of or in addition to the 64?

John

[Patrick91914]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe you should be restoring the 63 instead of or in addition to the 64?

John </div></div>

I was thinking the same thing. Why scavenge from what sounds like a solid, complete car to rebuild a money pit?

[Mr Riviera]

Patrick is DEAD ON !

[tjthorson]

Thanks. This has been a long issue with me trying to do this project. i wont rehash it here - the 63, while it has less rust, miles, and is more "original" - it will take a lot more work and money to get back on the road then the 64, as the 64 is a running, driving, stopping car with rust.

You can search on my name to see the how and why of what i am doing. It all boils down to time and money. While the 63 would be a better candidate for a nice, original show car, the 64 is much quicker to get a nice weekend toy cruiser for my dad. i cannot afford to take ten years to get the car on the road.... i feel fine with myself in welding in the floor pans - just need to know how much they cover - and Ill have a learning curve getting in the quarters.

I dont want to cut the 63. But - if no one wants to buy it in its current form, and I cannot restore it myself, it will save me the money of buying the floor pans and quarters, I can part and sell the dynaflow and nailhead and rear, and scrap it, unfortunately....

[RivNut]

Todd,

What exterior chrome pieces do you need? Are the door panels you need for the '64 standard or custom? (Did you know that there is a difference in the wood pieces between years?) Check the classifieds in the back of the Riview, I'm sure you can find the pieces you're looking for and you can then have two Rivs; a nice father/son project for both father and son.

Ed

[tjthorson]

There is no way I (or my parents) can afford to restore both. here is the problem. i have already purchased the front and rear seats in saddle color for the 63. i already purchased the rear package tray in brown, gold carpet, seat foam, and the wood inserts for the dash and door panels of the 63. My plan was to use the tan door panels, and some of the interior trim from the 63 on the 64 and convert it to a saddle interior. The 64 is currently a standard black interior. the door panels, while they appear to be original I think are not. The passenger door panel has a knob for an outside mirror, which the car obviously never had - or someone switched doors.... Either way - i have already purchased from clarks corvair the seats, door panel wood, rear tray, carpet, etc - everything for the 63 - obviously that i cannot return.

The trim i need thats missing off the 64 is the passenger front fender body molding trim, and the piece right behind the door, before the rear wheel well. Very minimal pieces that i could just get from a scrapyard if someone wants the complete 63.

Again - this project was never intended to be a show car. i just wanted a nice weekend driver for my dad. But I cannot afford to buy a $20,000 "done car" and i cannot take years to get it done.... neither of which work well, i know.

Again everyone - I dont want to cut the 63. if someone wants to purchase it, as is, I just want my money back out of that car, and i can move on to make a nice driver from the 64, and a purist can do a great restoration on a 63.... It is totally complete and just how it was parked in 1972... If someone wants all the interior parts as well - thats fine too. Then, i will just buy the black stuff from clarks to do the 64...

[Guest ejc65]

Agreed but it is alot cheaper to get a car running and stoping opposed to doing rust repair. I know this first hand.

[Patrick91914]

In my experience, whenever you mix limited funding and limited time, you have a recipe for a costly restoration mistakes (this comes from a former starving college student who had 7 Rivieras at the same time and no job).

Have you considered taking the drivetrain out of the '64 and sticking it in the '63? I'm don't know if there are problems substituting the '63's Dynaflow with the '64's TH400 or if there's mating challenges between the '63's yoke and a '64 driveshaft; however, the swap can be done in a day or two. That way you have a solid, running car. The cosmetics (i.e., the interior) can be worked out over time. Good results can't be rushed (well, unless you have deep pockets).

[Guest ejc65]

X's 2 I agree with Patrick on that! you will get the best of both worlds.

[tjthorson]

That was the original intention when I bought the 64. In the process I found out that the 64 drivetrain in a 63 would be nearly impossible without some serious fabrication, as the center section of the frame, the trans corssmember which is welded on, and the rear ends do not match. There were some significant changes from 63 to 64.

I posted this thread for several reasons. One - to find if anyone would want a 63 to restore that is all original, unmolested, still sitting on bias plys time capsule of a riviera, secondly to see if anyone has the information on the classic fabrication floor pans, such as how much of the floor do they cover, maybe some pictures of them.

I realize the 63 might be a better long term candidate for restoration - but welding in some floor pans and rear quarters and paint gets the 64 back on the road with the parts I have already purchased. Looking at both cars - for right now, that is the better choice.

So - has anyone used the classic fabrication floor pans, and how much does each piece cover, and does anyone have any pictures of them? Thanks!

[Guest BJM]

Todd,

As you suggested I went back and read all of your old posts. It appears you have had the 63 for about 1 1/2 years and progress is about usual for what you got (although I have not seen photos)

This would have been an easy one - no air conditioning, no power windows, you originally described the interior as "nice" yet went and purchased Clarks products.

You originally stated the 63 had a nice body that would shine up well and it appeared to have original paint.

So the focus was - and you are addressing - the engine and getting this 63 driving. Of course, the brakes need replaced, new exhaust etc. When done, there might be some things that don't work 100% but at least you can take a survivor car to shows.

Then you buy a 'typical' midwestern Riviera with extensive rust and a need for an interior. Now you are talking $10,000 to $13,000 in body work, doing a real extensive restoration ad maybe stealing parts off the 63.

The following is not an opinion, it is knowledge based on experience: Focus on the the 1963 only, sell the 64 for whatever you can get for it and finish the 63. Otherwise, neither car will get done anytime soon, both will eventually be sold as non running project cars for much less then you have in them.

1st mistake was ordering a Clarks interior when you described the original leather as soft and coming around. It's only original once. And ordering the "frame" to a painting when the "canvass" isn't even completed is never a good idea. It's like having all the chrome done first on a fifties cruiser before the body has even been fixed or completed.

From what I read you need to rebuild a low mileage 63 401 which should have been a walk in the park, then systematically go through normal wear items like the brakes. Even the front suspension should still be tight at 67,000 miles.

Now, in reading your posts I don't see much direction, you display a lack of focus - and it's hard for the real heavyweights on this forum (Ed, Tim and others) to continue to provide support and direction when you skip back and forth.

That 64 should never have been purchased and you should get rid of it ASAP and refocus all your energies on the 63, which with a normal sequence can be completed in time for the 2010 local shows your dad was so excited about back in July 2007.

I have owned well over 110 "project" and driver cars in the last 12 years and have completely torn down (body off frame) 3 cars at ne time while working 2 jobs, 65 hours per week, raising a daughter and it's just stupid. I know you want to move on to the 64 and you say just trust me, but at some point after we offer advice and direction, and you want to tear into a rusty 64 just because it runs, some folks back off on the advice and move on.

[RivNut]

Patrick has made a valid suggestion. What you'll run into when you install a '64 drive train in a '63 (I had a '65 drive train in a '63 once upon a time) is a different transmission mount, different shifter linkage and shifter, and you'll need to make wiring provisions for the ST400's electric kickdown switch. If that is an option for you, I'd go all the way back to the rear end with the '64 stuff. You have all that stuff, it might work well for you.

Ed

[Patrick91914]

No matter how you slice it, the best direction seems to point towards redoing the '63. It's your coin and time, but take it from my 15+ years experience with these cars, take the best body, drivetrain and trim that you can find and get the car running.

[tjthorson]

Thank you for all the replies. Seeing where this adventure has taken me, it certainly even looks to me as misguided and all over the map.

What happened with the interior on the 63 was the musty smell was not coming out of the interior, and the cloth around the edges where the hog rings are on the seatframes just crumbled in my hands and separated. i began collecting interior pieces because at the time I had the money in the bank. This year now, I am not travelling for work as my travel budget was cut - so i have more time to work on the car - but now my bonuses and extra income have been cut as well.

I realize that the 63 looks better on paper. I just cannot feel but overwhelmed with brake lines, fuel lines, brake hoses, and then regular brake stuff (wheel cylinders, etc) let alone the engine - and possibly a dynaflow that may or may not move the car when the engine is back in.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I had hoped to get more info on the floor pans from classic - Ill just have to wing it at this point. I suspect no one will want to buy the 63 anyway - so maybe that will be a long term restoration project going forward.

Thanks again for the help and guidance. Sorry for being so much trouble to you guys....

[tjthorson]

Oh, you can see pics of the 63 and 64 here:

navigate to "friends cars" then to dads 63 or 64 riviera...

http://toddsplace.homeserver.com/vehicles

[Guest BJM]

The 64 doesn't look too bad. Interesting it is another manual windows car, standard interior. I think the 63, properly marketed on ebay - can get a good strong bid. $2500 plus your Clark's parts strong? Not sure, but worth a shot. Remember ebay has no listing fees anymore so it's a good way to market it.

That's an interesting color combination and that might have kept the bidding down when offered. That shade of green is love it or hate it. I like it, especially with the saddle interior.

Got you on the interior funky smell. Purchased 3-4 cars that were the so-called "barn finds" with mouse pee odor permeating them.

[JZRIV]

Todd,

If you call classicfabrication they can give you the dimensions of their pans.

I know you aren't necessarily looking for advice on what way to go and I admire your motivation on this project. With all due respect, do yourself a favor and think the project through completely before spending any more money or getting out the sawzall and welder. You are about to untake a huge project that will take many months. Replacing floor pans, quarters, fenders, and rockers is major job no matter how good someone is cutting and welding sheet metal. That project would make most restorers cringe at the thought and for good reason.

In my opinion the 63 isn't worth a whole lot as a whole car based on what you have told us so far. Its worth the most to you. If you are insistent on patching up the 64, from a financial standpoint you're better off taking the sheet metal off the 63 and parting whats left. You just need to get past the mental part of hacking a perfectly good solid body car to pieces.

Also I can't emphasize enough that you at least do a compression test on the 64 engine. If you base your decision to rebuild the 64 body around what you think is a strong engine. You will want facts to back that up.

I've seen nice looking, good driving solid cars sell for $5000 and extra nice ones go for under $10k. Only the frame off nut and bolt restos would go for 20K.

Good luck whatever route you go.

[Guest Mark Wardle]

Hi Todd,

I have a 63 with a 64 drivetrain. I didn't do the conversion but I'm happy to photograph any areas of my car if that would help. It definitely doesn't look like it was professionally done but it works. On a side note, my car was badly rusted and needed new floors and trunk. There was no aftermarket floor pans 18 years ago so it's just flat metal. The trunk was from a donor car. I would never do it again as it cost more to fix then a nice rust free car. It was a crank window, base blue interior car that I converted to a power window, deluxe black interior from a wrecked 64 so most of the car is a 63/64 combo.

Mark Wardle

ROA#1149

[tjthorson]

Thanks. After dong the research, I wasnt going to swap drivetrains because of the frame differences - trans cross members, etc.

Right now, I am going to have the 63 up for sale - whole or in parts - and am ordering the floor sections and outer rockers for the 64.

Thanks!

[tim63riv]

Todd,

What does the engine in the 63 need to get it running again? Bearings, rings and a gasket set should be around $500 plus your time. If the trans fluid in the Dynaflow is red, it's probably OK.

As far as replacing all the lines, it's not that big a deal, besides, who's to say that these things shouldn't be replaced on the 64? If you cut up the 63 for parts for the 64, you could end up with neither car driveable for a very long time.

There is <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">NOTHING</span> </span></span>wrong with driving a rusty car that needs body work as long as it makes you and dad smile when you drive it!

I'm sure you'll decide what works best for you and dad, and go from there.

Good Luck,

Tim McCluskey

[tjthorson]

Thanks Tim. My suspicion is that no one is going to buy the 63, and ill let it sit. I have the parts for the engine already. As far as $$$ left to spend on it - it needs new brake lines, hoses, and brake parts for sure. I needs the fuel tank dropped, hopefully just cleaned or replaced, and new fuel line run to the front (its plugged up tight). It needs the crank polished where i nicked it with the rod bolts. It needs the heads gone through and cleaned. The rings are still carbon stuck in the pistons, and they have been soaking in my parts washer tank all winter. It needs the radiator recored. It needs the exhaust replaced.

On the 64 - its running and driving. Everything seems tight - and it has no leaks as its been sitting in the same spot now since I got it. Im going to find some junkyard quarters, and my dad is ordering up the floor pans and outer rockers. Ill get that one on the road - then maybe the 63 becomes a longer term resto project....

Im confident in my abilites to get the floor pans welded in. The only part I am leery about is the quarters. Ill probably have my buddy's body shop weld those in.... Then Ill prep it and go to paint. Ill use the saddle interior I bought for the 63 and that will put it back on the road.

I certainly could have made some better decisions with this project..... But hey - what car project ever goes perfect or on budget?

[RivNut]

Todd,

You've just learned one of the great lessons that goes along with owning/restoring an older car.

"Hind sight is 20/20"

You live, you learn, and then by God you go out and make the same mistake a couple of more times before you finally wise up. If you don't believe it, just ask my wife. She'll tell you I still haven't wised up after 11 of these things.

Ed

[tjthorson]

I had a few minutes this morning - so i went out and shot a few pics of the floor..... Have a great weekend everyone!

[Patrick91914]

Perhaps I've been spoiled living in CA, but unless there something special about that particular car (e.g., like a '65 GS), I'd call the crusher. There are too many solid car out there to be spend the effort on a rusty project. That's just my opinion.

[tjthorson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Patrick91914</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps I've been spoiled living in CA, but unless there something special about that particular car (e.g., like a '65 GS), I'd call the crusher. There are too many solid car out there to be spend the effort on a rusty project. That's just my opinion. </div></div>

HA! This is the north midwest my friend. I was happy that there still is a majority of the floor left - and the replacement floor pans will weld to something solid.... With a significant amount of POR-15 - and the fact it will only be driven on nice days - that will be the end of the rust when i get done with it.... But hey - if you have one of those rust free ones laying around that you would like to donate to my project - feel free to PM me. Ill even rent a trailer and drive cross country to get it....

[tim63riv]

Todd,

The Cali boys really don't have a handle on the type of weather that these cars were confronted with when the transport dropped them off at a dealer in the Midwest! I think these cars EARNED the right to be brought back from near death!

As a side note, I think it is great to offer advice to other enthusists, but mentioning their car and a crusher in the same response is just bad form! Some of us just don't have the resources or even the inclination to write a check for a nicely restored or all original car! Their is a large amount of satisfaction to be gained by being able to bring one back!

Good Luck!

Tim

[Guest BJM]

I'm with Tim and Todd. If you just restore the pristine ones or buy ones already done, then like a endangered wildlife species, we will see fewer and fewer for future generations.

All areas of the country have issues. I have purchased a rust free Wildcat convertible out of Arizona only to need the entire interior redone.

[gungeey]

I also see california cars with severely cracked sheathing throughout the wiring harness. Though there is a lot to be said for sticking a socket on a bolt head and having it come down the threads in one piece!Steve

[Patrick91914]

Like I said, we're spoiled out here. I'm not suggesting that restorable cars be crushed, but at the same time, the day I looked out my window and counted eight junkers, something had to give. Some folks are cut out to bring back cars that a sane person would wash their hands of. I'm just not one of them--and I love 1st gen Rivieras as much as anyone. Some just ain't worth savin'.