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Guest windjamer

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Guest windjamer

OK, Im confussed.With only 13 judging credits I have a right to be.No its not realy a new subject/topic.At the CJE class on tires I rec. a chart on first use of Radials,Redlines and alpha tires. I know my 72 Chevelle came with Bias ply, yet the chart tells me GM first used Radials in 1967. At the AGN in Dover there where two 72 Olds with Radial tires in my class. One was atempting a first GN the outher was looking to rec. a senior. The first wanting a junior lost after a VARY heated discusion because of the radials. The outher won his senior. How come?? Im not trying to stir a turd, just want to know how to know the correct tires. I am told 1967 for redline tires,yet I have seen FACTORY DOCUMENTATION that clearly shows redlines for the 1965 GTO. I dont want to make unnessary deductions but Im proud of my cars status, Im not giving anything away. Gettysburg is comeing up,whats the MAGIC formular

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Dick, if you're not judging and you're just curious about your Chevelle, then bias tires on it, raises no eyebrows. Know what I mean smile.gif

Otherwise, I'll bet that letter thang to the VP will come into play. wink.gif

I keep hearing about earlier year uses of radials too, but the first new car I had with them was a 1974 Nova and they had to be special ordered. I'm not saying they weren't available earlier, but these country dealers down here in Virginnie had never heard of them, except maybe on them "furin curs"! laugh.gif

Wayne

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wj, I copied and pasted your entire post and sent it by e-mail to Eric (Rick) Marsh, the guy that teaches the tire CJE class. The minute I hear back from him I will post it here.

Bill and I are going to Gettysburg so maybe THIS time I can actually meet you laugh.gif and not that riff-raff wink.gif you left to watch your space at Hershey. grin.gif (Just kidding they were very nice.)

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While Mr. Marsh is the resident tire expert, I would add that the "Magic Formula" is this.

If you are sure it is wrong, then have the team captain ask for documentation. If the owner has factory documentation that the tires are correct, then they receive no deduction. If the owner has some other (other than manufacturer's) documentation, the judging team can decide if the documentation should be believed and no deduction taken or if the documentation is not to be believed.

If the owner has NO documentation AND the team is 100% sure that the tires are incorrect, then it deserves an appropriate deduction as indicated in the judging standards.

If you are not sure, then the owner gets the benefit of the doubt and no deduction should be taken.

Like the documentation that you mentioned, I have heard of several rare examples of situtations where documentation exists showing that some cars were delivered with radials before they were generally believed to be available per Mr. Marsh's CJE guidelines.

With proper documentation, the answer is clear.

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Just for reference my untouched survivor 69 442 has a redline, bias, spare in the trunk which has never touched the ground. I run redline radials on the ground but do not expect the car to be a trophy winner. Perhaps the car that did so well with the radials in place was just that nice. The tire was the only deduction that day in that team of judges eyes?

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Guest windjamer

Matt I do follow your advise on asking for documentation,THATS the reason for 99% of the harasement I get from MOSTLY frends and family. Like old Rodney Dangerguy,I just don got no ressspect. Susan seriously, Rick is the author of my chart and the instructor of the class I went to. He is a heck of a good guy and a real instructor. I wouldnt have his job if it was paid.

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OK, just to muddy the waters, here is my personal pet peeve on tires...

From the rules:

17. Batteries, headlights, belts, tires, hoses

and clamps may be of modern manufacture,

but must be visually of the era of the

vehicle and of the type specified by the

vehicle manufacturer. Specific brand is

not important.

OK, Model A Fords came from the Ford factory with Firestone, Goodyear, B.F. Goodrich, or U.S. Rubber tires on them. Reproductions of the original tires are available. (I will stay out of the grandfathered acceptance of whitewall tires on Model A's, that is a whole other discussion.)

I personally have heartburn with the "specific brand is not important" when I see aftermarket "Sears Allstate" tires on a Model A Ford. They could not have come from the factory looking like that. While this specific brand in this case is "of the era of the vehicle" it was an aftermarket product, not something that came from the factory.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Be prepared for him, Susan!

He's a wiry old cuss! cool.gif

Wayne </div></div>

Don't worry I will be. I have known him for quite a few years and judged with him on several occasions.

Several years ago he stepped in, at my request because the guy doing the chassis CJE was giving wrong info. on tires, and gave the correct info. to the class. Several of which were at their very first CJE course. It would not have been a good thing for them to leave the class and go deduct for tires that were correct.

The instructor had told the class that tires always match all the way around including the spare. That just is not always true. Older cars could have tires that match in the front that don't match the ones in the rear. The fronts match each other, the rears match each other. And the spare might be some leftover tire that doesn't match anything. Rick was kind enough to step up and give the class the correct information.

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Guest windjamer

Matt I dont judge model As thank you, I did one year and felt like the biggest fool in Hershey. I went by my b/inlaws rule, if it looks right it probably is. Any questions I had I ask the team capt.Sears tires on Anything would most likely cause me to call on my capt. I dont think Ford GM or any manufacture EXCEPT the wooden go-buggy Sears sold used them. Just for the record,I have since started to look and learn about the Model a and outhers of that era just in case. I dont like not knowing

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wj, It helps if you have a small notebook to carry when you go to judging school and CJE classes to make notes in. I have a small 3-ring binder with A through Z dividers so that I can alphbetize the notes. I write down what was taught, on what date, where and by whom. It has come in handy more than once on the showfield.

You can also cut items out of <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">The Judge</span></span> and tape them in there also for future reference.

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Good morning, I see the subject of tires is being kicked around again and my name has been inserted.

I've been teaching the CJE on tires for several years and updating the material as new information comes along.

I believe over 1/2 of the AACA National Judges have been through the talk and several have come through more than once. I also provide a handout (referenced above)and if the individual has not been through the tire CJE, thay maynot fully understand what the document says.

The tire CJE takes about 30 to 40 minutes based on number of questions raised and number of judges arriving after start of the talk. (this is called the interruption and restart phase)

I don't type well so I'll just point out some highlights and encourage attendance at the next AACA National Meet.

1. The owner is responsible for the authenticity of the vehicle, not the judge.

2. If the car came from the dealer with factory authorized tires, those tires should match the documentation.

3. The first place for this documentation is normally the owners manual found originally in the glove box.

4. This manual usually has a page identifying what the original tires were.ie. a 6.70 x 15 bias ply ( I haven't seen an owners manual which says brand)

5. We don't have aftermarket tube type bias available anymore, they all say tubeless. A dummel tool is not required to remove the words tubeless when mounting on your 1949 Chevrolet which calls for tubes. Just put a tube in the tire. ( I explain why in the tire CJE).

6. The handout has a chart on page three titled "general availability". Many judges have gotten a copy without going through the CJE, ignored the title of the chart and proceeded to disagree with the years stated. General availability means the year that a manufacturing line made the general conversion. Redlines, for example, were generally available in 1967 while they were actually introduced in the 1965 model year on the Olds 442. Pontiac got wind of this and a few late 1964 GTOs had redlines. If the owner has the documentation to match the tires then move on. (Mustang had dual redlines and were often on non-high performance Mustangs - I defer from here to Mr. Randall Stone)

7. Radials cause all kinds of discussion. It comes up in every CJE and often at AACA National Judging schools ie. the recent school in Charlotte. All radials are not the same. We have radials and P-metric radials. If your documentation says radials and you're running P metrics, they are the wrong tire. Both types are available on the aftermarket. You may just have to look at more than one source to find them.

These are just highlights. I urge judges to attend the schools and debate based on facts rather than emotion.

I judge in other clubs as well and AACA has the best system. This is a great hobby and our AACA judges do a pretty good job.

Remember rule#1 - We're here to have fun!

Thanks,

Rick Marsh

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shop Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Be prepared for him, Susan!

He's a wiry old cuss! cool.gif

Wayne </div></div>

The instructor had told the class that tires always match all the way around including the spare. That just is not always true. Older cars could have tires that match in the front that don't match the ones in the rear. The fronts match each other, the rears match each other. And the spare might be some leftover tire that doesn't match anything. Rick was kind enough to step up and give the class the correct information.

</div></div>I would like to see this documentation that front and rear tires do not match on a new car or the spare not match any other.

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The instructor was speaking of all cars. He was telling the class the wrong information which left uncorrected would have resulted in incorrect deductions being taken.

Here is the rule from the 2009 Judges Guidelines under the heading of Chassis, page 22, item 9.

<span style="color: #3366FF">9. Prior to 1915, tires must be matched in

pairs (front and rear), but spares need not

match anything on the vehicle

except each

other. (If there’s more than one size spare,

they will naturally

differ.)</span>

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OK, pre '15 sounds a little differant then older cars. At least some pre '15s had differant tread patterns front to rear. But what good would a spare tire be if it didn't match any tire on the car? I guess they are going to have to rewrite that rule as Corvettes starting about '84 could have differant tires front to rear also.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nearchoclatetown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But what good would a spare tire be if it didn't match any tire on the car? </div></div>

My guess is that as long as it held up long enough to get it back home or to a garage that was good enough. Kind of like the donut/"may pop" spares of today. They don't match anything but they will get you home or to a garage/tire shop/local Walmart....hopefully. grin.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I guess they are going to have to rewrite that rule as Corvettes starting about '84 could have differant tires front to rear also. </div></div>

Sounds like a good idea to me. Someone needs to submit some factory documentation to Joe Vicini and get that started for next year.

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Common sense guys....

The "manual" is guidelines. Factory documentation overrules the guidelines. As for the Corvette have different size tire F/R make sure the team captain knows you have factory documentation for them being different.

If you read the 2001 Judges Guidelines, under engine, item 1, it reads "all radiator hose clamps must match each other. All heater hose clamps must match each other." 99% of the time they do. But a '63 Chevy II would be incorrect if all the heater hose clamps match. One clamp is different. I have Factory documentation for this. This item was changed in 2002 Judging Manual as apparently some others ran into this problem and it now reads "All radiator and hose clamps must be as provided by the manufacturer."

There are times where there are exceptions to the "rule". If you have a car that has one of the "exceptions", it would be advisable to have the documentation for the item and let the team captain know that you have one of the "exceptions to the rule" and that you have documentation for it. As Eric said, It’s” the owner’ is responsible for the authenticity of the vehicle, not the judge”. If the owner autheniticly restored the car, with quality workmanship, he shouldn’t have anything to worry about when the car is judged.

There are times where there are exceptions to the "rule". If you have a car that has one of the "exceptions", it would be advisable to have the documentation for the item and let the team captain know that you have one of the "exceptions to the rule" and that you have documentation for it.

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Dick,

From the standpoint of having a vehicle point judged, everytime a judging team came to judge one of our vehicles and there were things that I knew that could be a descrepancy, I told the team captain as soon as the team got there what they were and told them that I had the documentation to prove it.

Case in point.

American LaFrance fire trucks....

American LaFrance painted the frames the same as the body color. In the case of our truck, our truck is on a Ford chassis, and Ford chassis left Dearborn with the frames painted black. There have been instances where a judging team has questioned as to why the frame isn't black, and I've had to explain it, but in the case of American LaFrance, the truck is correct. With the cost of red paint versus black paint, it would've been cheaper to paint the frame black, but it cost us more money to paint the frame the correct color.

If you have something on your vehicle that is questionable, tell the team captain what it is, and have your documentation ready if they ask for it. If you don't tell them up front and take the deduction, you're going to be on the losing end. Save yourself the headache and tell them up front.

I was involved in an issue of Hershey this last fall where the engine judge on my team swore up and down that the engine was painted the wrong color. In this case I happened to know who did the restoration on the vehicle, I had seen the vehicle during its' restoration, the restorer was able to explain things a little more, but did not have the documentation. After a <span style="font-weight: bold">WARM</span> discussion with the engine judge, it was decided to call someone who knew about those engines. Needless to say this person we called, turned around and called the plant manager where this engine was assembled, looked it up, and verified that it was correct. Although the engine was painted entirely different than what anyone else had ever seen, it was correct.

Had I not made a fuss with my fellow team members, there is a vehicle owner who showed up at Hershey who wouldn't have gotten an award that they had rightfully deserved. Due to my persistence (and being stubborn too) the judging system worked in the way that it was designed to, and everyone left happy. I will say that it was a good learning experience for everyone on the judging team.

The moral of the story, if you have something questionable, tell the team captain before judging starts. If you don't tell them, you could lose.

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Guest windjamer

Pat you are 100% right, just DONT P.O. the capt first. You might have to wate till next year for your Honestly Fair DESERVED Award

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Guest windjamer

All water over the dam Pat, I rec. my JUST award a few short mo. after the incident a preservation award at Hershey last Oct. and Dec.22 2008 I rec. a letter from eastern United States concours telling me they saw my Buick at Hershey and invited me to show at Bethleham the day after Gettysburg. It all comes out in the wash. If im wrong I take my punshment,but if Im right you will hear me in my best Black Lion voice

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  • 2 weeks later...

Rick,

Just found this forum and it's great and very helpful. Thank you also for the advice about my 47 Ply this past Sat.

What does the class cost and/or do I need to take it since my car is older?

Thanks again,

Dan

Old Mopars

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Guest VeloMan

Returning to the subject of tires: what is the rule on white, black, and gray tires? I think black tires were not available until about 1913.

Phil

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  • 1 month later...
Guest 69moparmike

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nearchoclatetown</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shop Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Be prepared for him, Susan!

He's a wiry old cuss! cool.gif

Wayne </div></div>

The instructor had told the class that tires always match all the way around including the spare. That just is not always true. Older cars could have tires that match in the front that don't match the ones in the rear. The fronts match each other, the rears match each other. And the spare might be some leftover tire that doesn't match anything. Rick was kind enough to step up and give the class the correct information.

</div></div>I would like to see this documentation that front and rear tires do not match on a new car or the spare not match any other. </div></div>

The T/A Challenger and the AAR Cuda came from the factory with front tires and back tires different sizes, not just width but larger size wheels. Also there were space saver spare tires that also did not match the other four tires.

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I can add just this. My Dad had a very busy tire shop in PA that burned to the ground Jan 1 of 1971. I spent a considerable amount of time in that shop weekends and Summers. I specifically remember mounting and servicing Red Line tires. Radials were not in the picture that I remember other than I do remember discussions about whether radials could be recapped (remember recaps?).

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I need to buy new tires for my truck and not sure witch way to go. I have a Chevy 1/2 ton and the factory tires were Firestone or Goodrich. I have read that you do not judge tires by the brand name but by the tire size. Do you also judge the ply of the tire? Firestone and goodrich only come in 4ply and my truck calls for 6 ply. Lester tire company makes my tire in 6 ply not that I need the 6 ply any more but not sure witch way to go for judging.

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  • 2 months later...

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