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Point deductions for re-bodies? (30's)


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If a car is re-bodied as a different style of body such as going from a closed car to open car, or even from a 2 door model to a 4 door model (open bodied cars), are there any point deductions based on the re-body. If so, what are they? Assuming the restoration was done correctly and the body is exactly the same as the particular body type it was modeled after, or an original body section was used to make the transformation complete is there any kind of penalty avoided as opposed to a re-body that isn't a period correct body for the car. Thanks in advance!

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Pierce Guy,

I now have 7 judging credits (getting right up there. smile.gif ), so I'm no expert, but every AACA judging school and CJE I've attended has started off by stating; "What would this car have looked like when delivered from the dealership?"

That says to me, that if, in fact, a Pierce had both a 2 door and a 4 door car available for sale, then as long as it "appeared" authentic, then it is judged as authentic on an AACA Show Field. We do not check serial numbers, frame numbers, what have you to distinguish the differences.

Correct me ShopRat! grin.gif

Wayne

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pierce Guy,

I now have 7 judging credits (getting right up there. smile.gif ), so I'm no expert, but every AACA judging school and CJE I've attended has started off by stating; "What would this car have looked like when delivered from the dealership?"

That says to me, that if, in fact, a Pierce had both a 2 door and a 4 door car available for sale, then as long as it "appeared" authentic, then it is judged as authentic on an AACA Show Field. We do not check serial numbers, frame numbers, what have you to distinguish the differences.

Correct me ShopRat! grin.gif

Wayne </div></div>

Wayne, no need to. That is what we are told.

Here are the rules right out of the Offical Judging Guidelines book for 2009. Read it and see if you agree that it seems to contradict what we are told in class. Especially the first paragraph. However Wayne and Restorer 32 are correct that we do not check ID/VIN numbers to verify exactly how that vehicle came from the factory. I know there are folks out there that honestly can walk up and look at numbers on tags and tell how it came from the factory and would know what had been changed. But in AACA we don't do that.

EXTERIORS

5. NON-AUTHENTIC BODIES

<span style="color: #FF0000">a. Vehicles with bodies that have been

altered or newly manufactured that differ

in style and appearance from the

original body fitted on the chassis at

the time it was purchased new by the

original owner will be considered NONAUTHENTIC.

Vehicles fitted with such bodies will be subject to a 40 point mandatory deduction.</span>

b. Exceptions:

1. Precise identical duplication of a complete body or any part of the vehicle’s original body, as fitted to the chassis of the original vehicle when purchased new by the original owner is acceptable, provided such duplication is reasonably required

by the absence, destruction,or deterioration beyond repair.

This would also include the duplication of a “First” body, supplied

by a recognized outside source to a vehicle that was originally offered as “Chassis only”. Such an example would be the Commercial and Station Wagon bodies mounted on the Ford Model T Chassis.

2. A vehicle rebodied by a recognized body builder during the era contemporary with the period that the vehicle was originally

manufactured. (Example: Classic cars rebodied during the Classic era by a recognized body builder.)

3. Transfer of an original body from the chassis of one vehicle to the chassis of another vehicle of the same make, model, and year of manufacture. This also includes parts of authentic bodies that are transferred. For example: wire wheels for wood wheels, side mount

fenders for non-side mount fenders,etc.

4. Vehicles that have reached Senior or Preservation status prior to January 1, 1982, will be exempted from the nonauthentic rule. However, upon sale or transfer of ownership, the vehicle will be subject to the non-authentic rule as defined above.

c. The burden of proof as to the accurate representation of a vehicle is the sole responsibility of the owner.

d. Misrepresentation of vehicles: The Class Judging Committee and National Technical Committee reserve the right to remove 20 from the AACA list of First Prize winners, any vehicle judged after January 1, 1982, that is found to have been falsely represented

at a National Meet.

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You will be fine. This is the exception to the point deduction for rebodied vehicles:

Exceptions:

1. Precise identical duplication of a complete

body or any part of the vehicle’s original body, as fitted to the chassis of the original vehicle when purchased

new by the original owner is acceptable, provided such duplication is reasonably required by the absence,

destruction,or deterioration beyond repair.

This would also include the duplication of a “First” body, supplied by a recognized outside source to a vehicle that was originally offered as “Chassis only”. Such an example

would be the Commercial and Station Wagon bodies mounted on the Ford Model T Chassis.

2. A vehicle rebodied by a recognized body builder during the era contemporary with the period that the vehicle was originally manufactured. (Example: Classic cars rebodied during the Classic era by a recognized body builder.)

3. Transfer of an original body from the chassis of one vehicle to the chassis of another vehicle of the same make,

model, and year of manufacture. This also includes parts of authentic bodies that are transferred. For example:

wire wheels for wood wheels, side mount fenders for non-side mount fenders, etc.

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There are many, many antiques and especially Classics that have been put together from more than one original car. In some cases, especially with early 1930's Packards it is virtually impossible to tell if a 2 door body shell was originally a coupe or a convertible. Again, the determining criteria is "Could it have come from the factory looking like that"? Would be nice if it were possible to enforce the "original body that came on the chassis" rule but in reality it isn't possible, at least not with pre-war cars in most cases.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Susan.</div></div>

You are very welcome my friend. smile.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I knew there was some reason you got that Judging Award....Susan Linden....75 judging credits?????? WOW! whistle.gif

Wayne </div></div>

As of the end of that day I now have 77 credits. I started in 1990. Where o where did the time go?

I know you heard the story that Joe Vicini told about us starting out judging together and how I accidentally knocked a soda over on him. blush.gif My comeback was, "But look where he got to". When I got back to the table my Team Captain, Peter Brown, had told the rest of the team he wants me to spill a soda on him too. grin.gif

Thanks for taking the photo Wayne. I want to send a copy to my brother and a few friends and other family members.

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Thank you all for the quick responses! I appreciate the help...after reading through the official judging guidelines I did run across that section but I needed the additional clarification. The car in question is actually a 29 Blackhawk which was once a closed car and has had a rebody in it's past to make it an open car. But to the best of my knowledge it was done correctly! I'm happy to hear there shouldn't be a reduction for its 'new' body.

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I have often wondered about this same thing. My Frankenchevy has a 27 shell sitting on top of a 27 frame. It has 26 fenders and a 26 radiator shell, easily replaced. Had I known what I know now when I bought the car I would have replaced the fenders and shell with those of a 27. However, that would leave me with a title that says 26. Therein lies a problem. I really don't care as I don't intend to have the car judged. It's kind of the principle of the thing to me.

What irritates me are those few perfectionists that will critisize my car because it doesn't meet their standards. Sometimes, due to the inconsistencies in my car, I feel left out of certain club activities.

Still under construction but driven often, which is what I would prefer to having a pristene car in a garage.....

DSC00010.jpg

DSC00009.jpg

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To do that I would need bumpers.

"Where's the bumpers?"

"What bumpers?"

"The bumpers on your car."

"What bumpers on my car?"

"Isn't it supposed to have bumpers?"

"No."

"Why not?"

"Why should it?"

"In case you run into someone."

"The only thing I would be worried about in that case would be the $1000 + radiator with the irreplaceable radiator shell around it that you're leaning on."

"By the way, what year F*** is it?" he asks while looking at the bowtie with Chevrolet written in it.

mad.gif

"When are you going to paint it?"

"When are you going to give me the money?" grin.gif

I am tempted to write on the spare tire.... "It's not a F***"

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rbl2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What irritates me are those few perfectionists that will critisize my car because it doesn't meet their standards. </div></div>

Here is what you tell them, and you can quote me on this.

<span style="font-size: 11pt">Life is wonderful. GET one!!!!! </span> smirk.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Sometimes, due to the inconsistencies in my car, I feel left out of certain club activities. </div></div>

I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt that said something to the effect that others can hurt your feelings only if you let them. So just don't let them. Enjoy your car. I personally think Frankenchevy looks great.

DSC00009.jpg

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Bill, you need a bumper sticker, similar to some read in another thread, that says, "This isn't your Father's Chevy, but it's also not "YOUR" Chevy either!" laugh.gif

Wayne </div></div>

Two thumbs way up Wayne. Good one. laugh.gifgrin.gif

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Trust me on this, they won't hurt my feelings. I get to do something with my car the owners of trailer queens don't. I get to drive mine when I want and where I want. I thoroughly enjoy that. Not that there's anything wrong with a trailer queen. I very much appreciate and respect the time, effort, and money bringing a car back to that condition.

Someone, who shall remain nameless, once told me that no matter what I did to my car it would NEVER be good enough to even go on a VCCA sanctioned tour. (Someone else PM'd me and told me to ignore him and that my car, even as seen above, would be plenty good enough)

Rest assured, I drive it several times a week, weather permitting. I hope someday soon to take it for a trip of several hundred miles one way. I just haven't figured out which way yet. laugh.gif

I also have a dream, a fantasy if you will, to take it on a cross country trip. Billy Possum already does that with his 29 Chevy. I figure between this forum and several others, plus some old army buddies, I have friends all over the US and Canada. The trip should be anything but boring.

If that ain't a tour, I don't know what is. wink.gif

My son has some body work and paint experience. Not much but a lot more than I do. I have been trying to pin him down to get him to do my frankenchevy for a long time. As luck, for me anyhow, would have it he is down on his luck right now and needs a car. No car, no job. And daddys utters dried up long ago. Not an hour ago we were talking on the phone and we talked about painting my car and doing the body work. He said as long as he has free time at the moment he would jump on it. I told him if he did I would sping for an inexpensive car or give him my 56 Buick which he would really like to have. It seems as if we may finally do it.

He'll get a car, I'll get mine painted, and the two of us will have shared memories. grin.gif

If this is going to happen, I'll know within two weeks.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I personally think Frankenchevy looks great.

</div></div>

Thank you, very much. I like it too. If you knew the difference between a 26 and 27 Chevy roadster you would see a major difference right off. It's in the shape of the quarter panel.

Something I need that will slow down body work may be another trunk lid. The one on it is home made. It looks fair but could be better. Fabricating another one has been discussed. It has been suggested to have one made out of fiberglass. I don't have the skill for that and having one made may be time consuming and expensive. Another friend suggested going to a junkyard and cutting the top out of a PU truck. The metal would be right and would readily take paint. The trick would be shaping the curve. The trunk lid does have a wood frame so that may help hold it but it would still have to be shaped.

Another item would be trunk hinges. I have spent several years looking for 27-8 trunk hinges to no avail. Right now I would accept anything that even remotely looked like they came from that era. Maybe hinges from something later, such as 29 through 33.

I really hope my son can help me with this. That would be a memory that we both could share and cherish for many years to come.

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Hey you guys, I haven't been on in a while, and was just reviewing this thread. What Susan and Matt have said is correct, but there is one thing that I haven't seen mentioned that you'll need to know about.......

Authenticity of components <span style="font-weight: bold">AND</span> materials!!!

You can put a new body, door or fender on the car, but make sure if you do that it is made of the same material that the car originally had on it. A quote from the rolebook states "Missing body components such as a missing fender will be subject to the same point deduction as a non-authentic body component 40 points per item up to 120 points

maximum)."

In simpler terms, you can buy a reproduction steel fender and put it on the car and not lose points, but if you put a reproduction <span style="font-style: italic">fiberglass</span> fender on a car that originally had a steel on the car, then you will lose full deduction on that part. In simpler terms, if you put one fiberglass fender on a car that is supposed to have a steel fender on the car, you would lose enough points to prevent you from ever winning a First Junior.

I know your question involves replacement bodies and parts on your car. It is a good question, but I want you to be aware of making sure that you not only pay attention to authenticity, but also pay attention to make sure that it is constructed out of the correct materials too.

I'd hate to see you buy a replace body part, put it on a car and see you lose full points.

Thanks for the quesiton, I hope we've helped you out.

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