Hupmobile 20 Lubricants

[1910Hupp]

I'd be interested in what lubricants people with running Model 20's use. Medium weight oil is specified for the engine and the gearbox. However SAE 30 weight in the gearbox gives me lots of clutch judder and gear changes are difficult.

The sister car to mine in Auckland runs 250 SAE (ie the old 600W for the Model A Gearbox) in the box which certainly makes gear changing and clutch action a much more pleasent experience. With regard to the engine drippers SAE 30 doesn't give 16 drops per minute when cold and gives about 30dpm when hot Multigrade 10-30W gives 10 drops when cold and 30 dpm when hot which is probably ok. However I'm thinking about about using Mobil 1 -at 5w-50w I wonder if it might be better although more expensive !

I would be interested in others experience opinions. Karl

[trimacar]

Hi- I'm very interested in this topic also. I have been told that the best thing for the transmission, since it lubricates both gears and clutch, is farm implement type hydraulic fluid.

I am not a fan of multi-weight oils in antique cars. I have run straight 30 weight in my Model 20 Hupp, and it is happy as it can be. I believe this engine relies more on splash than drip anyway, so believe the drip is mostly to replace any oil burned or leaked.

I assume rear end uses a standard differential heavy weight oil.

Any other comments out there, I'm with Karl, want to hear some opinions.

David Coco Winchester Va.

[1910Hupp]

David

What concerns do you have about multigrades ? I looked in Harold Sharons book on Brass Era Cars and he seemed ok with them- but I would hate to be doing harm by using multigrades.

In the rear end I'm running the same 250 SAE as the gearbox.

Karl

[trimacar]

Hi Karl- after your comment, I pulled out my copy of Harold Sharon's book. You are absolutely right, he actually recommends a multigrade, so I am rethinking my lube ideas. I believe I will use 10W30 in my engine when I get it on the road this summer.

He further recommends a very heavy lube in the rear end, due to the straight cut gears.

I'm still thinking on the transmission, if anyone has good luck with a specific lube in the tranny of a Model 20 Hupp, please let us know.

Thanks David

[HuppGuy]

Karl & David, do you drain and clean out the crank case and transmission with Kerosene as described in the manual? I would think if you just changed the lubricant frequently then a detergent oil would be better then a non to prevent sludge build-up. If you clean the power pack as described then a non-detergent with the viscosity to fit the season might be an appropriate way to go. Please let me know what you think because I will be visiting this problem soon.

[1910Hupp]

Brian No I don't flush it with kerosene but I do drain the oil completely every five hundred miles (about every six to eight months given the miles I do) or so and replace with clean stuff- It's great for a week you think the engine doesn't leak oil as the oil is so clean it doesn't show up.

David - In the gearbox I've tried SAE 30 -clutch judder and gnashy gears just couldn't get the change right much worse as got hotter. SAE 10w-30W same. SAE 140 less clutch judder and smoother gearchanges again things deterioate as the gearbox heats up . SAE 250 no clutch judder and smooth silent changes until gearbox gets really hot but still acceptable and lastly a 50/50 mix of SAE 250 and Moreys rear end thickener-probably the best overall and what my sister car runs -However more hassle to mix up so I just use the SAE 250W.

Having never seen the inside of my engine/ gear box I was concerned that some of the gearbox oil would end up in the crankcase but I have been reasured that although engine oil will get into the gearbox the reverse is unlikely

Karl

[trimacar]

Hi- I have been inside my engine and transmission (uh, visually, that is, I wouldn't quite fit; kinda like the old line of asking a girl to "join me in a martini". Some observations:

-the path between engine and transmission would be a tough one for migration of fluids; the transmission forward driveshaft (the one on which rides the shifting gear) lives in a long bushing, 4 or 5 inches long; in addition, there are thrust washers between clutch and rear of engine housing. Any fluid migration would be minimal.

-I had my engine apart in the late 1970's, and cleaned it, it has original Parson's bronze bearings. I took it apart a couple of months ago, after 30 years of (admittedly limited) driving. Clean as it was 30 years ago.

-I have always used straight 30 weight oil, non detergent. I believe because of the "pass through" use of this oil that the engine oil stays pretty clean. You drain the oil before a run, so that level in crankcase is at standpipe level. You add oil (either the drained oil or new) to the oil reservoir. If every now and then, you throw away the drained oil, and add fresh new oil, then you are removing impurities, a "mini- oil change". And I did not see any evidence of any sludge buildup in crankcase.

Thanks for info on transmission oil, that is an interesting test sequence. One issue that Harold Sharon brings up in his book is that if you use too heavy an oil in the tranny, it will act as a fluid coupling between clutch plates, thus it will not "disconnect" from engine rpm totally. That might lead one to say that auto trans fluid, or the hydraulic fluid I mentioned, may not be the best, as at least the first mentioned is made to be a fluid coupling in a torque converter.

Karl, I emailed you a copy of the Breeze manual. If anyone else wants same, please email me at David.Coco@hphood.com

thanks David

[1910Hupp]

Thanks David

Certainly in my car clutch judder is much better with thicker oil and perhaps the thicker oil is providing a more graduated release.

I'm interested at what speed your car cruised at when you had it on the road. Mine cruises at 22-25 mph via the fitted speedo and GPS has confirmed this . On a down hill slope with just me on I have had it pushing 30mph which is plenty fast enough given the braking system and pedal car steering. Up a steep hill we are at 5-10mph in low gear. Changing down on a hill we some times sit stationery for 20 seconds immediately after the change into low and then the clutch seems to take up and we begin to move forward. I wonder where the claims of 50mph came from

Karl

[trimacar]

Hmmm...speed, always a fun subject. My car has the 4:1 ratio rear end, 12/48 tooth pinion/ring gears.

Yes, you have to "row" it up hills, first, second, first, second and so forth. It's a shame there is no middle gear.

I can assure you that, on level ground, my car will go 40-45 mph with no problem. I will say that my car has very little wear in the front end, with the rack and pinion steering there is little room for play. Mine is very tight. For those of you who don't know this little car, it takes only inches of steering wheel rim movement to go around a corner. It is a little scary, as if there is an accident you will be the first one to fly over the hood, but it easily goes down the road at that speed.

I cruise at 25-30 normally, but 30 is not a limit by any means.

The 20 second lag in clutch engagement is not normal. You need to check the fluid you are using, or adjust the nut and threaded rod that go into the transmission, to correct the pressure against the clutch plates.

Karl, I am not being critical, I just think there is something worn or out of adjustment, or not correct fluids, for the performance you describe.

You should check carb adjustment and magneto timing to see if there is an issue. With the Bosch magneto, even one tooth off timing (since it is not adjustable) will seriously affect performance.

Best David Coco

[1910Hupp]

Hmm very interesting !!

The clutch lag is only on a hill change down and then not always. (I had just assumed I had let the revs drop down too low and indeed if I double de clutch earlier with more revs it doesn't happen).

I'm not sure what rear end I have in it which of course makes a big diference. I know its not original.

With regards to the timing .The magneto is fitted with an advance and retard and by experimentation we have found the best overall performance spot and fixed the ignition there.

In the book "Three Men In a Hupp" the author drove a Hupmobile 20 Tourer which the owner said had a max speed of 22 mph (of course a lot more weight than our cars -Although with the windscreen,hood and luggage rack not to mention my 240lbs mine probably weighs a little more than yours)

Soon after I got the car I emailed Bill Cuthbett (the resource person in the club for Hup 20s) re expected performance and he indicated to me that if I could get 30 mph I had a good car.

The sister car to mine in Auckland has simaler performance to mine -as they used to race each other in rallies ! However does have same rear end.

So not sure whats going on . Either my speedo is reading slow -possible as 25mph seems very fast. Or you have a rocket ship- and I want your engine!! Tell me your procedure for timing your engine becuase I suspect this is the most likely cause of any problem I have -Karl

[1910Hupp]

Uh Hah- Problem solved Like most solutions it's always the simplest thing => Rechecked speedo against GPS and the speedo is running 10->11 mph slow. So I cruise at 30 plus mph and maximum speed is about 41 mph Sounds better -Karl

[trimacar]

Hi- the original magneto on the 1909 and at least up to my car (in the 5750 or so serial number range)was a Bosch DU4. I don't know if this model mag ever had variable timing, mine doesn't. I do have a couple of ZU4 mags which are identical, except for variable timing. I've never been tempted to put one on.

I am putting car back together now, will check timing and see if I can describe it. I also adjust the carb according to the original booklet; the Breeze is very touchy, and one notch one way or the other on the adjustment makes a difference.

Mine likes to run in the 25-30 mph range, but will go faster; in fact, even though my linkage is tight, the steering in one of these is so quick that you can't even think about moving the steering wheel at speed. Now, this higher speed is without top or windshield. If your top is up, then top speed is greatly reduced, as the top acts like a big parachute! best - David C.

[1910Hupp]

David I have the Bosch DU4 but it was modified with a later interruptor/Points so that it had variable ignition timing.

By doing some seemingly complicated maths the previous owner reckoned he had 47 degrees of advance and retard. Interestingly the engine ran over the full range of this However best overall performance was at 15 to 19 degrees advanced and this is where he locked the interruptor ring and disconnected the advance retard mechanism. Fiddling with the advance retard in practice apparrently seemed to yeild little in performance gains

IMHO he would have been better to fix his speedo to read accurately => this gave me a huge increase in performance !!

Karl

[trimacar]

Hey, I just realized that there is one thing different about my car. It has not had a muffler on it, didn't have one when I bought it. I am borrowing ends to make new castings, thus fabricating a muffler, but now wondering whether I really want to put it on.

Could absence of a muffler give better performance? Mine had a straight pipe ending behind rear of frame. Always sounded great, was not loud at all. David

[1910Hupp]

Yep Less back pressure more performance.

A lot of early cars had exhaust cut outs to give more power up hills . The Auckland District court was on a steep street and in 1908 they had major problems as passing motorists would open their cut out to get up the hill and hence all court proceedings became inaudible until the car had passed . I guess you wouldn't want to appear before one of the judges on a motoring infringement -Karl

[KenHupp20]

Hi Karl , You had asked about procedure for timing the engine, I took shots from my Instruction Book . Now lets see if I can post them .

Ken

[KenHupp20]

and the last little bit ............

[HuppGuy]

Karl,

I had to replace one of the gears in my transmission because it was pretty much stripped clean. I discovered that there are oil galleys at the top of the case that lead to the main take off shaft bushing, the housing for the drive shaft knuckle and the rod ends for the torsion bars. I wonder if using the 250W oil prevents the "splash" of the oil up and into this galley? What do you think?

[1910Hupp]

Hm.... don't know . I know the sister car to mine has been running the 250SAE (cut 50/50 with Moreys no less) with no apparent problems over some years and big milages (a tour of 1800 miles last year).

If I've interepted the areas you are talking about correctly then already I've got grease cups on or close to all of them. I have installed zerk fititngs inside them and I give them a good greasing frequently (see picture)

The 250SAE is fine in more complicated gearboxs such as the Model As. I suspect there is so much churning going on that the oil gets every where . However who knows.

I do know that 30W SAE in my gearbox is a disaster. I did persit bwith it for several months but with it there is huge clutch judder and I can't change without lots of noise and it gets worse the hotter the box gets. With the 250 its much better You still need to get the revs right and double declutch as you would expect but provided you do that changes are virtualy silent. I guess for me its academic because if I persist with the 30W I'll destroy the gearbox anyway. -Karl

[1910Hupp]

Brian the other thing is I suspect my U joint is not Hupp. Having owned a couple of Model T's it looks more like their U joint Drive shaft set up than the original -Karl

[KenHupp20]

Hi Karl

Here is a shot of a Hupp U-joint if that's any help to you . The square drive is 7/8 the shaft diam is 1" except at the "land " for the differential end bearing. It may well be close to what Ford used . RCH had worked for Ford .

Ken

[yearround]

Hi Karl,

When you say you use 250 weight oil do you mean the same weight oil they use in Model A Fords. I have heard they label it a 600 weight oil but it is really 250 weight.

Larry C

[1910Hupp]

SAE 250 apparrently roughly equals 600 weight which is what the my A uses in the diff and gearbox -Karl

[1910Hupp]

I recently tried Penrite 90/140 mild EP - Is ok with yellow metal . Normally EP not recomended as will cause the clutch to slip but I fiqured mild EP would be ok. It wasn't Clutch slip +++ couldn't climb up a slight hill as the clutch was slipping so much . Now running Penrite 40 Gear Oil (actually 25W -60W equivalent) and is ok Clutch a little violent when cold but minimal judder/ clutch slip and changes are ok -So that is what I intend to stick with from now on -Wow what an epic journey to find out what works best.

[Tom400CFI]

In our 1910, I run Rotella T 15w40 in the engine, as I understand that it still has a high zinc content compared to conventional gasoline engine oil.

In the transmission, I run Valvoline (brand doesn't matter much, IMO) 75w90 fully synthetic gear oil. I have noticed two major benefits from switching to this oil in the transmission;

1. The shifting is smoother and easier. It "seems" like the margine for error when shifting (RPM matching wise) is greater. I don't know why that could be the case, but it physically shifts easier and smoother.

2. Clutch engagement has smoothed out dramatically. There is no chatter or aggressive "biting" on engagement. It is smooth, and easy to modulate.

The clutch CAN slip of "too long" after a 1 > 2 shift, but only if you basically don't let off the throttle. Simply releasing the throttle during and after the shift (proper practice anyway) result is complete clutch lock up in less than 1 second after the pedal is released. Then wide open throttle and the car resumes its acceleration w/o slippage of any kind.

Lastly, in the rear I WAS running the same 75w90 gear oil but it kept leaking out the axle seals and getting on the brakes, making the terrible brakes....way worse. . I changed that oil to Conoco/Phillips "Dynalife" L-EP "00" grease, which flows some...but not nearly as much as oil. The leaking has ended, the rear runs smoothly and quietly. In fact, the Label suggests that it's perfect for applications where leakage is a problem.

The on the subject of speed, our car will top out at 50 mph. It is the fastest '10 Hupp I've seen. It does have raised pistons, and no windshield or lighting tank...but everything else is there; top (always down), lights, etc. I can't remember as it's been a couple years, but I THOUGHT that my rear gear was 5.xx:1. I didn't see that ratio mentioned earlier.

-Tom

Edited June 30, 2009 by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

[1910Hupp]

Thanks useful information Penrite Gearbox 40 is apparrently equivalent to about 20w-60w as far as I can work out- seems to be working fine for me currently.

I think 35 to 40 mph is about as much as my car will do . It does have the windshield which I'm sure doesn't help in terms of drag and weight Also when the previous owner rebuilt the car I suspect it was with a non original rear end ratio which is probably very relevant as well . Having said that 35 to 40 mph is ample fast enough with the brakes we have and the lack of shocks.

Karl

[Guest winton]

My '09 hupp has a cone clutch lined with breaklining meterial & has worked great for the last 50 years. I use 30 W oil in the trans. With disc clutches, a little graphite powder may help. Too much might clog the oil passages. 600 W as I understand it was steam cylinder oil from an earlier era. New products are better. My car will top out at 54 -50 mph. I suspect that the Shebler carb. helps. In the old days, many Hupp owners switched to Shebler for more speed (1909 hot rods). It is a wonderful car!--winton

[trimacar]

Hi- the Hupp disc clutch runs in transmission oil, so not sure the graphite powder works, unless you're saying addd the powder to the oil? Neat that your car has a cone clutch, must be an early one. The Breeze carb has its limitations, for sure, can imagine a Shebler would work well, but it does negate the J manifold configuration for heated air to carb. Best David Coco Winchester VA.

[Guest winton]

Hi trimacar, Yes, add graphite powder to transmission oil. I used this on another car that had a bad chatter problem & it helped. Oh yes, my car is a 1909 which used a cone clutch, originally lined with red fibre. The car had the Shebler Carb & adaptor when my dad bought it. Also, by the way, Except for carb. iceing, cold air is better engineering, as cold air is more dense and provides more O2 to the motor= more power. Our car has been fabulous--reliable, cute and a lot of fun with little trouble, and has made us very "huppy"----winton

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

I have driven my Hupp 20, 6000 miles in three years and all the time I used 20W 50 multigrade oil in the engine and gearbox, checking the oil level in the crankcase every 1½ hours of driving time and changing it every 10 hours.

Without any air filters on the Breeze carburettor I wore out a set of piston rings in 1,250 miles, so I fitted two filters, one for each air intake and have had no wear since.

In the differential I use SAE 250 grade gear oil.

As to speed, I find 25 - 30 MPH a good comfortable speed (I have a 1 : 3.5 ratio crown wheel and pinion) The car will travel at 45 MPH on level ground but that is

too fast for the flimsy crankshaft. Of greatest importance is never to apply the brakes at speed without first de-clutching because of the kinetic energy in the flywheel on the front of the engine and the forces involved place a huge stress on the crankshaft.

If the clutch chatters when changing gear, try tightening the three adjustment screws in the clutch.

[Tom400CFI]

Without any air filters on the Breeze carburettor I wore out a set of piston rings in 1,250 miles, so I fitted two filters, one for each air intake and have had no wear since.

That is crazy ring wear. Our Hupp engine was last rebuilt 56 years ago, and still runs great. I would estimate that it has 30,000 miles on it since that rebuild and also breaths through an unfiltered, Breeze carb. Rings still seal fine.