Guest 69judge Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 My 90 starts fine when cold,but will stop running sometimes when warm up.Then you have to wait until it cools down(enters close loop)to start.It will turn over when hot,but will not fire.I have pushed lightly on the valve located on the fuel rail and have plenty of fuel pressure.Also both codes e021 and e022 show up when this happens. Any ideas?thanks..Daryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest craig hewitt Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 same thing on my car had 15 pounds pressure needs 40 to 45 put a gauge on it.and install a fuel pump use oem with new strainer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Sounds more like an ICM issue to me - do you have a Magnavox or Delco ?While cranking, does the tach register anything ?Place to begin is the "cranks but does not run" section in the FSM but I'd correct that TPS problem first. If it thinks it is at WOT while cranking, the ECM could think it is flooded and cut off the fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jcc3inc Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 I've had a couple of instances with not starting or quitting when hot, one with a '97 LeSabre and the other with my '91 Reatta. It turned out to be the crank position sensor; they drop out when hot. If you wait for the engine to cool a bit, it starts and runs well. Regards,Jack C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 That would be a good place to try some of the freeze spray that is sold a most electronic stores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 69judge Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Thanks for your ideas.Here's more details of the problem,the car always starts when cold or warm (2 or 3 marks on the temp gauge).When it's 4 marks or hotter the problem starts, sometimes!Other times it will run fine for days. According to the Buick Reatta Manual,it tells you if the problems are intermitent not to pay attention to the codes.The problem is almost always in the grounding or circuits.With a 20 year old car that can be a real problem. About a month ago I found the wires leading to the Crank Position Sensor had some of the plastic insulation cracked and missing,they appeared to shorting out.I repaired them and the car ran fine for about 3 weeks.Now it's doing the same thing it did a month ago. The hard part of this problem,is unless you test the sensors when the car is hot and won't start,they all check out fine.I'm going to take my meters and spark tester with me for a test ride and check things out.I'll let you know what I find,thanks again...Daryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Daryl, I apologize for butting in on your conversation with Jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 First thing I'd do is to fix the TPS issue (21 and 22 are both TPS related). Put a DVM on the center lead and monitor when it is not starting (or turn to run and use the diagnostics).Also take a 7mm socket on a 1/4" rachet and R&R the ICM connector, you may have a resistive connection. At least that is easy and cheap.ps sorry I forgot the display goes blank while cranking so cannot watch the tach, was thinking of my other cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Padgett is a little quicker then most of us. The ICM is located uder the coil pak. One of the first questions he asked is"Is it a magnavox or Delco coil"? Translated that means "Do you have the square [Magnavox]coils or have you upgraded to the round [Delco] coils"? If you are having ignition problems, one of the easiest swap is the ICM/Coil Pak. Padgett learned and passed on to us that an ICM/Coil Pak that fits a 1992 3.8 Pontiac Transport works in the Reatta. You can either get one new or buy used at your local salvage yard. Used will save you about $250.00. Just tell them you want a ICM/Coil Pak for a 1992 3.8 Pontiac Transport and they will get you one. This setup was used by GM up to at least 2002, so you should get a setup less then 10 years old. It is a simple 20 minute swap out with one nut taking 10 minutes to do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jamhudson Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 1990 Buick Reatta 3.8L 231CI V6 FI VIN: C Advance has both types listed for Reatta BWD Ignition Module/Control Unit Part No. CBE47ZOE Style; Delco$129.49 BWD Ignition Module/Control Unit Part No. CBE107ZOE Style; Magnavox$90.99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 That is just the ICM. I really believe the Delco is a better unit & is usually $20-$40 at a yard. This gives you the ICM, the three individually replaceable coils, the base plate , and the mounting hardware, everything needed for a changeover. It is also on just about every 3800 from 1991 (Reatta) to 200? when they began the coil-on-plug system so are plentiful. Only caveat is not to get one for a 3.3, the ICM keying and electronics are different.ps BOTH -21 and -22 code ? At the same time ? Current © or history (h)? - one is a high reading and the other is a low reading so unlikely together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jamhudson Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 This product fits the following vehicles BUICK 1993 CENTURY 1990 - 2003 REGAL 1990 ELECTRA 1991 - 1993 RIVIERA 1990 - 2003 LESABRE 1995 - 1999 RIVIERA 1991 - 2003 PARK AVENUE 1993 SKYLARK 1990 - 1991 REATTA CHEVROLET 1995 - 2002 CAMARO 1992 - 1995 LUMINA APV 2000 - 2003 IMPALA 1998 - 2003 MONTE CARLO 1998 - 1999 LUMINA OLDSMOBILE 1992 - 1996 98 1998 - 1999 INTRIGUE 1993 ACHIEVA 1992 - 1995 SILHOUETTE 1993 CUTLASS CIERA 1991 - 1992 TORONADO 1992 - 1999 DELTA 88 PONTIAC 1992 - 2003 BONNEVILLE 1997 - 2003 GRAND PRIX 1995 - 2002 FIREBIRD 1992 - 1995 TRANS SPORT 1993 GRAND AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 69judge Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Padgett the tps codes come up after the engine stalls out,and show as history.The car has the Magnavox coils,I replaced the coils with after market parts from Autozone two and half years ago.The Reatta wouldn't start at all back then.I think I'll switch to the Delco module and coils after reading everbodys comments,and I'll let you know what happens.....Daryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steveskyhawk Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I have spare Delco and Magnavox coil pack kits with the module. PM me if interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 The Reatta at 20 years old are at what I would think are the life expctancy of the ICN/Coil Pak life expectancy. The advatage of the Delco upgrade is the east low cost availability of used parts and the fact that now if one coil goes bad you can just replace it. Typically the early warning of impeding failure, is green gunk coming off the ICM onto the radiator hose. When you see that, call your local salvage yard, as you are now on borrowed time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMJAnew Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I had the exact same symptoms. My mechanic replaced the crank sensor about a year ago. It has not recurred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I know this is an ancient thread but i found it thru a google search and you guys seemed knowledgable so I thought id post. So I have 91 park ave with a similar issue. I changed the ICM (magnavox unit) with a new one and the car fired right up and ran great. Shut it off and went to restart it and nothing just cranks. So I let it sit and went out the next morning and still just cranks. I wiggled the wires to the ICM and it fired right up again. Shut it off again and now no start condition tried wiggling the wires again didn't work this time. Thinking of changing the Crank Sensor but Don't know if that is gonna help. Padgett mentioned a resistive connection above could he please elaborate? Also any other thoughts would be great. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) Welcome to the forum landtortise! When the engine will not run you should immediately check for two things. Spark and Fuel. It takes both for the engine to start.Pull a spark plug wire off the coil and hold it near where it connects to the coil. While an assistant tries to start the engine watch for a strong white/blue spark to jump from the coil to the wire you are holding about 3/8" away. Does that happen? If the answer is NO you could have a bad connection to the ICM bad CPS or another bad ICM.IF you had a good spark and the engine still won't run you need to check for fuel pressure with a fuel pressure gauge or pour about an ounce of gas into the intake to see if the engine tries to start. Edited March 12, 2014 by Ronnie (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) "I changed the ICM (magnavox unit) with a new one" Well that was your first mistake however I have seen this moderately often. Fires once, vibrates so the connector moves a little bit and disconnects. never runs again. The IPM pins are quite short and the foam pad in the connector gets hard with age. I remove the pad and push the connector on from the ends, I do not rely on the screw to pull it in.If that is not it, check the shrader on the fuel rail for pressure. No pressure no fuel. Edited March 12, 2014 by padgett (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 thanks padgett I'll give that a try I seem to have plenty of fuel pressure when I press the schrader valve. I bought the car 2 weeks ago as a non runner with no spark so I am chasing an old problem. If you have any other thoughts go ahead and post them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drtidmore Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 You can't judge the fuel rail pressure visually from the schrader valve. You have to put a gauge on it. 15PSI will seem like a lot when releasing the schrader but will result in no start conditions. The rail should build to 40-45PSI and HOLD that once the engine is killed for more than a few seconds. The longer it holds the better. After I finally chased my demon down to the the pulsator allowing a leak down, mine now holds 42PSI or so for days on end. Now I do have a new pump, new pulsator, new fuel filter, refurbed injectors and a new fuel rail regulator, so with older parts, yours may not hold near as long, but it should hold for at least a few minutes.Padgett, I am going to investigate the ICM connector on mine as a potential point of my intermittent E041 (cam sensor). I have noticed that it sets more often than not during a turn, but not always and sometimes while running straight ahead under constant engine RPM. As I replace my ICM several months ago, this is something I need to investigate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 thanks padgett I'll give that a try I seem to have plenty of fuel pressure when I press the schrader valve. I bought the car 2 weeks ago as a non runner with no spark so I am chasing an old problem. If you have any other thoughts go ahead and post them up.I guess my previous post must have been too complicated. I apologize for that. I'm happy to see that Padgett spotted my mistake and was able to express what I was thinking in a way that was easier to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 ok i ran home at lunch and checked my connector there was no foam piece to remove however i did pull a small piece of rubber out of the back of the icm side. hooked everything back up and still nothing I am pretty sure it's a no spark issue could a bad cranks sensor be eating up modules? the funny thing is last night after i installed the new module it fired right up i ran it for a good 10-15 minutes. I shut it off and imediately tried to restart. and nothing just cranks over. and over the weekend when i put on the jy module it fired right up ran for a minute and then died and wouldn't restart till i put the new module on it yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry yarnell Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Wasn't there a test measuring fuel pump voltage while cranking to test for a bad CPS? (crankshaft position sensor, not central power supply).As an aside, ahem, is there FUEL in the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 yes it has fuel I personally put 5 gallons in it myself. I just had another thought could the ignition switch be my culprit? It would shut power off to everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Guessing and swapping parts seldom pays off in the long run. Some logical, step by step, hands on testing is what is needed to find your problem. First thing you should do is verify that you have a spark while you are cranking the engine or you don't. Do you have spark or don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 no i do not have spark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Here is a link to a page on my website that has tutorials and videos for trouble shooting the ignition system. The first 3 tests in this tutorial will help you determine if the ICM and CPS are getting power as they should. I hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drtidmore Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Wasn't there a test measuring fuel pump voltage while cranking to test for a bad CPS? (crankshaft position sensor, not central power supply).As an aside, ahem, is there FUEL in the tank?Yes, I was the one that posted that originally. As the green fuel pump connector is connected directly to the fuel pump relay output, AND that the fuel pump relay will NOT be activated by the ECM UNLESS it receives valid crankshaft sensor inputs, if green fuel pump connector goes to +12 while you crank the engine, that pretty well vindicates the crank sensor the ECM and the fuel pump relay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Ronnie thanks for the link ran thru the tests last night and it appears that I need a crank sensor. I never did get the light to flash when rolling it over. I didn't have access to an led light like in the link so I used a 194 marker light socket and bulb and some aligator clips. I'll be changing the cranks sensor tomorrow and will let you know id it gets me back in business. Anyone have any secrets or tips on that job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 There is a "How to" on Crank Sensors on Ronnie's website. You might want to get a familiar with it. Most of us who have owned a Reatta for any length of time have either contributed to it to help others to used it to do repairs. Best "How to" on any website! Thanks Ronnie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drtidmore Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Wasn't there a test measuring fuel pump voltage while cranking to test for a bad CPS? (crankshaft position sensor, not central power supply).As an aside, ahem, is there FUEL in the tank?Not sure what happened to my response to this from yesterday. Regardless, yes, I originally posted that after studying the schematics and how the systems interrelated operationally. (UPDATE! on posting this, my post from yesterday appeared. not sure what was happening)If you monitor the green fuel pump connector (test connector that allows the fuel pump to be powered directly from an external 12 source) you can indeed determine if the CPS, and the associated ICM/ECM circuits along with the fuel pump relay are operating properly. If there is a fault in any of the associated circuits of the CPS, ICM, ECM items or the fuel pump relay itself, the green fuel pump wire will NOT go to +12V immediately upon cranking. It only takes 1/3 of a rotation of the crank itself for the fuel pump relay to be actuated, assuming everything is working properly. As there is an oil pressure controlled, purely mechanical backup switch that also powers the fuel pump, you can disconnect the oil pressure sender located at the top of the oil filter to prevent mistaking this as an indication of proper CPS/ICM/ECM/Fuel Pump relay operation, BUT the oil pressure backup power will be delayed in time until there is sufficient oil pressure (a second or two normally). If the CPS/ICM/ECM/fuel pump relay are all working properly, the green fuel pump connector will switch to +12V INSTANTLY on cranking, so if you have a sharp eye on your DVM, you can detect the difference between the two and NOT have to pull the oil pressure sender connector. This is a much easier test than trying to directly test the CPS. If the green fuel pump wire does NOT switch instantly to +12V when cranking, then more troubleshooting is in order, but if it does you can pretty much take it to the bank that the CPS as well as the associated circuits in the ICM and ECM are working along with the fuel pump relay. It needs to be stated, that there can be OTHER failure modes in the ICM and ECM that prevent the engine from cranking, so this test is NOT an exhaustive test of either. As has been stated numerous times, that damned fuel pump relay is the most common failure point in the chain. I have personally had it fail several times over the 25 years of ownership. After the first one failed on mine, I started carrying a spare relay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Well I pulled it apart to and I figured out why I got it to start when I played with the wires the old crank sensor was broke and I musta got it in the right spot. So how do I get it lined up to avoid breaking the crank sensor again already broke one new one I put it on and put the balancer back on and heard a snap oops. Good thing they are cheap huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 so I changed the crank sensor yesterday didn't break it this time and I still don't have a signal from it. also i still don't have spark. im lost!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 How do you know your not getting a signal from the CPS?Did you break the wire that connect to it in all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 i did the pin trick like mentioned on ronnies post and turned the motor by hand and got no signal. just to be safe I picked up a second cranksensor and swapped it out again and still getting no spark. car has a new module, that has been tested on a module tester, new coil pack, crank sensor plugs wires ect ect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Corvanti Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) just to make sure: does your crankshaft (harmonic) balancer have any cracks or rubber missing - front and back sides? if so, it wouldn't take long to mess up the sensor. if that's ok, did you measure the distance between the sensor "metal" and the crank grooves? it's kinda like setting the points in a distributor (old school:)). many threads here about that in "search".if all of the above is ok, i'd go back to Ronnie's post about spark & fuel. when i purchased my Reatta, i had to replace the crankshaft balancer/sensor plus the fuel pump. the ICM was good. as others have stated - get a fuel injector pump tester (around $20 at Harbor Freight) i don't know what they charge to rent one at a "FLAPS"...good luck, and let us know how it turns out!EDIT: sorry if i missed any answers to my questions, i was going by memory when last read the thread. Edited March 17, 2014 by Corvanti (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasJohn55 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 By design, the damper has the interrupter tabs fixed to the solid inner member which is pressed on the crankshaft so that even if the outer member seperates it will not affect the triggering of the sensor. The outer member rides on a ball bearing to keep it aligned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Yes it is set to 20 thousandths like the instruction say to the car just cranks and is getting no spark. Like I said the module is new and I tested it too. When I installed it on the car It started right up and ran like a champ. Let it run for 10 minutes or so thought I had the problem fixed shut it off and tried to restart it and again no spark wiggled the wires going to the module and got a fire again let it run shut it down and now nothing my next step I guess is to check the wires in that harness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Corvanti Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 By design, the damper has the interrupter tabs fixed to the solid inner member which is pressed on the crankshaft so that even if the outer member seperates it will not affect the triggering of the sensor. The outer member rides on a ball bearing to keep it aligned.uhhh... really???i suppose "ball bearing(s)" never fail due to out of round alignment issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now