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Parts Replicator....Unbelievable High Tech....


Dandy Dave

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The plastic would be used as a pattern for the sand mold. I would assume that the machine would have a way to make the part larger to make up for the shrinkage that happens in casting parts from various metals.

Feeding the information in a CNC would eleminate the need for an old time "Dinosarust Machinist." wink.gif Guys like me are slowly becomming extinct. I'm not sure that is a good thing??? whistle.gif Dandy Dave!

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What I, along with a whole bunch of the rest of us, want ot know is whether a company exists with this technology that will reproduce parts for us mere mortals (without a zillion dollar budget or a famous name), i.e., with the scanning technology, and a cnc machine, and or casting capability? Stateside, preferably, or maybe once the scanning is done, there is a list of machine shops that can use the data...i.e. there are probably more CNC machines than scanners?

this thread should get priority...

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Guys like me are slowly becomming extinct. I'm not sure that is a good thing??? whistle.gif</div></div>

It's not a good thing, Dave.

There are not enough "characters" in the world nowadays. smile.gif

Wayne

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Truthfully, for reproduction of a single part there are certainly far less expensive methods, though I see a use for this technonolgy in patterning large production runs of parts. In the case of the part Leno showed it could have been made by any competent machinist at likely less cost than the method shown. One could use bondo to repair the broken part and use it as a foundry pattern, adding material where necessary to compensate for the very minor and likely insignificant shrinkage in a part of that size. We have castings made on a regular basis using original parts as the pattern. Neat technology but I don't see how it would much help an individual needing 1 part reproduced. Would be a good way though to pattern a rare part borrowed from a restored car but I don't see how it makes the actual production of that part any easier or less expensive. Generally it is cost prohibitive to program a CNC machine to produce 1 copy of a part. If a shop had their own CNC and a 3-D measuring device as shown I suppose the scan could be easily fed to the CNC and the part produced but like everything else in business the equipment has to pay it's own way. Sure wish I had those toys to play with though!

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Guest bkazmer

the optical scanner looks quite up to date. Making a plastic model from the computer file is about 20 years old (I recall working with the early machines around then). It would be usable to make a casting mold, but it doesn't have the properties of a functional plastic part any more than the glued together casting has the properties of the original. If the part shape is right, I would think you could go right from the scanned image file to CNC

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For example, I want to reproduce a windshield base casting about 52" long, 2.5" wide and no more than 1.5" tall. Very intricate casting, as the bottom is shaped to match specific cowl contours, dovetails with windshield posts at both ends, special shapes around wiper openings, etc. I know at least one person who tried to recast in brass and with shrinkage of about 5/8" over the length it was a disaster. Machine from stock? forget it. Add here and there to compensate for shrinkage? maybe, but scan and cnc machine....sign me up. I'll take 3 to start, then we can talk about the windshield posts, 15" long with all sorts of curves, tapers, and high definition areas. NOT an easy job even for an experienced caster who has a twin brother who is a machinist...

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Guest Skyking

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1DandyDaves</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Guys like me are slowly becomming extinct. I'm not sure that is a good thing??? whistle.gif Dandy Dave! </div></div>

Dave, I agree........My 96 year old father who is a retired machinist/model maker made alot of parts for his Model "A" and all my old cars. He still has his small shop down in his basement but due to his poor eyesight he doesn't do any intricate work anymore. It's certainly becoming a lost art. I will forward this link to him. Thanks for the post!! wink.gif

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shazammmmm! grin.gif </div></div>

Hey, I remember that from, Gomer Pile USMC.

Gee sarge, how deep do ya want that hole?

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Flack, best check the price of those CNC machined windshield bases before you agree to take 3. Would be interesting to know what one would cost going that route. We have dealt with recast Packard windshield bases and you are correct, there has to be a better way but I'll bet it would cost multiple thousands to do one on a CNC. Anyone have experience having one-off parts CNC machined? Less expensive I would think to have them "lost wax" cast by an art foundry used to dealing with very short production runs. We have had interior door handles lost wax cast for a Kissel project. Absolutely perfect repros at a cost of about $100/per but the outfit we used can not do parts much larger than handles etc. The shrinkage can be dealt with quite easily by beefing up the original pattern. Shrinkage in castings is a known quantity and can be compensated for.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Quote:Shazammmmm!

Hey, I remember that from, Gomer Pile USMC.</div></div>

Gomer must have lifted the phrase from Billy Batson. Billy would utter the word "SHAZAM" to turn hinself into Captain Marvel, a fighter of crime and champion of justice.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bhigdog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Quote:Shazammmmm!

Hey, I remember that from, Gomer Pile USMC.</div></div>

Gomer must have lifted the phrase from Billy Batson. Billy would utter the word "SHAZAM" to turn hinself into Captain Marvel, a fighter of crime and champion of justice. </div></div>

You beat me to it Bob........ Jim

post-40659-143138048988_thumb.jpg

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Guest Skyking

How did making parts go to Gomer Pile????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? crazy.gifcrazy.gifcrazy.gif

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Give it a couple years and the Chinese will reverse engineer it and we can buy the scanner at Harbor freight for $99 and the 3-D copier for 149.95.

I would think that once something like a large windshield frame was scanned you could type in a known multiplier factor for brass or whatever material, and that could produce an enlarged plastic pattern to use for sand casting. Sure its expensive today but I can remember when a black & white copier cost as much as a new car. How many of us have a color scanner/copier/printer/photo-developer/fax/phone/dishwasher that came with your $895 PC package.

BTW I've had good results with spraying original parts with a couple heavy coats of primer filler to compensate for shrinkage. It will add a few thousands to small parts to use as a sand cast pattern. It doesn't help much on large parts and the paint will fill in details and round off sharp edges so it may not work for all applications.

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I'll put this out there again as this thread deserves any help it can get. Is there anyone out there who knows of a company that can duplicate parts for a reasonable price. I am specifically referring to parts that are a bit more challenging, such as the windshield frame base I mentioned, using newer technology like we see on "Modern Marvels", the NASA channel, etc. I am not famous, do not have unlimited resources, and would prefer not to send irreplacealble parts made of fragile unobtainium to places where I would have difficulty communicating. I am not looking for a magic genie, I certainly know requests for prototype or one-off samples are not going to be "cheap", but I gotta believe there are shops out there that can do this work....I just don't know where they are. Finding and putting forth such sources would be a great asset to many many of our projects. Thank you.

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Why are you thinking that "high tech" is the answer to your frame problem? Those frames were made with 1930's technology.

Without seeing the part I can't say exactly, but my approach would be to make the pattern(s) myself, after doing some research to determine the correct amount of draft, risers, shrinkage allowance etc. My guess is little more than a band saw, glue, and hand tools are required. For a casting 50 some inchs long and thin cross section I would consider casting it in sections to control the dimensions and then weld. The choice of metal used, be it aluminum, brass, or steel would also bear on the method used. There would be a lot of hand work both in making the patterns and finishing the piece after casting but it mostly requires more patience than skill.

To pay someone $100 per hour shop rate to make the finished part would be very expensive but doing all the hand work yourself would cost only the foundry charge.

The biggest problem would be finding a foundry willing to work on small lot jobs without a massive set up fee.......Bob

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The simple answer is the two attempts to cast this part based on a sample have failed due to shrinkage, and the rework cost to get it to function was considerable. In theory a master caster might know where and how much to add to a sample, but I have not had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Master Caster yet. I am hoping this thread might encourage a discussion of such resources, either "old school" or a shop with newfangled computer guided tools willing to undertake low quantity projects.

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Well yeah, If you are trying to use a large finished part as a pattern it will fail. The point is, pattern making and casting is a very old and very well documented process. Shrinkage rates for commom metals are well known as is the draft required, riser/gate placement etc. There is some art to the process but it's not some secret art and there are tons of books out there detailing the process. For example. The American Machinists Handbook list the following shrinkage rates for casting the following.

Aluminum .2031" per ft.

Brass .167" per ft

Iron .100" per ft

Zinc .312" per ft

The "Steel Castings Handbook" details examples of how different pattern shapes affect shrinkage rates.

If you have the time and inclination to expend the considerable effort required to find the info and put it to use I beleive it to be a doable project at a resonable cost.

Again, I've not seen the part but if the main problem was shrinkage and the part is not overly complicated with voids and hollows etc it should be doable by an average, patient, hobbiest. Of course if a person hasn't the inclination or time then it most likely will be very expensive.........Bob

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Guest Orphanauto

That was amazing. Perhaps in years to come we will be able to get parts made cheap enough for the hobbiest to buy them. I need a stainless windshield trim set made for my 1940 Packard 160. Maybe not as pricey as a frame, but...

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We had a very good Brass and Aluminum foundry not far from here that closed several years ago. They closed because a major client took their business over seas as they were able to save .02 cents per item. Also, the restrictions that were being brought by the EPA, and the updates required to follow those EPA guide lines was cost prohibited. The buildings were leveled and the grand old place, M.C.Carter Company, is now, and forever, only history. frown.gif

It is no wonder that we cannot get anything made in America anymore. sick.gif

I could have taken your window frame there 15 years ago and the master caster would have took one look at it and told me where to make it larger to have it come out right the first time. The cost would not have been that much. I had some bronze throw out bearings cast for my 1930's Allis Chalmers K model bulldozers not long before they closed, and the cost was only about $17 dollars for 3 of them.

whistle.gif Dandy Dave!

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So we have reached a dead end? Closed companies, no old school foundary's, Gomer and Sgt. Carter have left the thread, and we are left with no sources for reasonably priced high tech (or old tech) part reproduction. Secret sources still with the secret recipe...

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We have an Amish foundry we work with on a regular basis. Not sure though if they can cast a piece as long as a windshield frame base in one piece but they are quite good at preserving original details. I know we could supply you with decent castings of the uprights. You may have to do the base in sections and then silver solder together. There will of course be some machining needed, especially if this is a folding windshield. This is a perfectly acceptable solution to the problem and would, I suspect, give you a serviceable windshield frame at under $1000. If you are looking to mass produce windshield frame castings cheaply I suspect you are out of luck unles you can sell enough of them to justify the cost of specialized tooling.

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Guest bkazmer

while standard shrinkage values are known, the shrinkage is not uniform in all sections and directions, so a good pattern maker/caster brings his smarts to that problem.

On the 160 windshield trim, the part I'm thinking of is a stainless steel rollform, then bent to the "picture frame" shape. I think this part is common to the Junior Series - maybe I misunderstood the part you're speaking of.

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I have thought of trying to do something from time to time just for old car parts, but then it would have to be an "Ileagal" small time operation. The local Junk Man in Hudson NY, who is now out of business because the city took his property, paid him a sum, and built a Mental Health building, had an aluminum smelter for a short time for turning small pieces of aluminum into bricks. After two or three months of operation, the EPA got wind of the smelter and shut it down. The fines were rather heavy as I remember. The thought of this is what keeps me from doing it. And that small scrap yard was in Business for more than 100 years. frown.gif Dandy Dave!

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