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16 Valve Turns Over but Won't Start!


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Wait, it ran, you parked it, then went to start it and it just cranks? DOes it sound like it is turning over normally or kinda fast? I am wondering if the cams are turning. The teeth can strip off the belt especially if it is original. Then again if you have spark, the HEP has to be turning which means the I shaft/Dist drive is turning, so maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree. Of course if the cam skipped a couple teeth. DO yo uhave a compression check gauge? If you have spark, and you have fuel, and you have compression, the motor should run, so which is missing? The 16V cars are very prone to bad spark plug wires/rotor/caps because you cant reach/change the dang things with the intake manifold in place so they get left for 22+ years blush.gif

Any more symptoms details? hard to diagnose over the Inet...

Alan

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Alan,

It turns over normally. The funny part is that it was running fine when I parked it. I put a timing light to each plug wire and they light. I have good spark at the coil and 55 psi at the fuel rail. The timing belt seems fine. Could it be the Hall Effect Sensor?

Patrick

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No hall effect worky, no spark. Hmm, timing light on the wires eh? It doesn't take much spark energy to do that, the energy required to throw a spark in the chamber with cylinder presure and fuel is much higher. Can you throw an $11. parts store coil at it and see what happens? Or if you have one off another car you can borrow... I've had the little carbon 'button' inside the dist cap go missing, spark will kinda jump then but not make the car run... How did you check the fuel pressure, you have a gauge you can hook to the Schrader valve?

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Wow Pat, here I figureed you had just posted here first, you actually have tried some of the right tricks! Before I went pulling the intake manifold (though I had to do it three weeks ago when motor was missing at anything above 4-5 PSI boost, turned out two plug wires had pulled up into the dist cap a bit causing the miss-easy fix after 2 hours to pull the mani) I would set pull the #1 spark plug, check for when the piston is coming up up up with a long screwdriver, set the flywheel mark in the trans window to 0 degrees, pull the plastic cover from the cam gears and check the cam timing. If that looks OK, then pull the manifold and looky at the dist cap. Might want to order a fresh set of plug wires from RDIperformance.com first and just do cap/wires/rotor while you are there. You've got a nice mystery going for sure Pat. I'll be drving to the Local Ski area (Big Bear) in a few hours with the family but I'll have wireless I-net on the laptop each evening so we can exchange some more ideas...

Alan

Just to be clear, you are just bringing the engine to TDC with a socket on the crank bolt right, not using the starter motor for that procedure. Pretty sure by the level of your diagnosis so far you know this...

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Alan,

It looks like the cams line up at 12 degrees BTDC which is where the ignition is timed. The timing belt looks real good with no stretch or wear. It's hard to believe it could have jumped exactly 12 degrees (ignition timing) by starting it the next day.

Patrick

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Well it looks like the intake cam was advanced one tooth but the exhaust is spot on. I wonder if they advanced it like that when they replaced the belt. I moved the intake cam back one tooth. Now it's at TDC but it still won't start. I digging into the distributor next.

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Patrick,

I took a couple days with the family for a local ski weekend, we're home now and it sounds like you have eliminated a couple more probelm items. Good news is, when you do get it running again (soon) you are not gonna believe how much faster the turbo is going to spool up, drivability will be much improved with the intake cam lined up cool.gif How long ago was this cam belt change you speak of, and where did they find a belt for that car. I was sure they were all gone but hten LouZ found a couple and now you...

It does still sound like to me there is a problem in the ignition somewhere. Pulling the radiator out might just work, though I honestly have not tried it that way. At the very least lose that little tube steel "support" bracket running to the intake manifold. Totally unnessary and with it gone at least you can set the ignition timing. Be nice if you had a set of fresh wires to put on. Did you contact RDIperformance? Getting closer to solving this *and* you are bonding with your car some too cool.gif

Alan

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Alan,

I ordered a code reader for the car which I'll have in a couple of days. I'll wait for it before I dig into the distributor (with all the rain we're getting). Upon visual inspection, it appears that it would be easier pulling the radiator than the intake manifold. My wires look pretty fresh. From what I read, one tooth on the cam is 9 degrees? At this point, I don't know if I jumped it or it was set that way which means I'll have to re-set the timing. I'll keep you posted.

Patrick

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Ha, TC Toy is right, we shoulda done that a while back. You led me down the path with your diagnosis and I stayed on the path.

Google "Knize mini mopar resource" and his trouble shooting 'guide' for FWD 80's/90's cars will come up. To retrieve your trouble 'codes' turn you iginition key on,off,on,off then on and leave it on (not all the way to start right, just on) On the lower right corner of your instrument cluster the 'power loss' light will blink a series of blinks one short, small pause, two shorts=a code 12 see? dont look away even for a moment to write dwon a code or you may miss a blink and that changes the whole message of the codes. Check them twice and let us know what you get...

Alan

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LouZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi Alan,

Where did you go, "Mt Baldy".?? </div></div>

We went to Big Bear Mountain and the surrounding area. The snow was the best it's been in years as CA has been in a long dry spell and it seems we are getting caught up all in one winter! My 8 Year old got her wish, it snowed while we were there. Meanwhile Dad was hoping he wouldn't have to drive down the mountain in it or mess with the tire chains blush.gif I hate those things. It snowed almost 11" while we were there, kids built snowmen and Dad built an awsome toboggan run that started 30' up where the plows had piled the snow and led onto a field. I think every kid at that hotel got a few passes in on that thing. smile.gif Only car issue is we got caught in a small rockslide coming down the mountain that tore a fist sized chunk out of the drivers rear tire. Changing a Chevy Suburban/Tahoetire in the snow is not much fun frown.gif

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Patrick,

You should do the built-in diagnostic. I am not aware of any diagnostic plug in this car. Simply turn the ignition switch on, off, on, off and on. The check engine light, directly above the headlight switch will begin to flash slowly. It is better to do this in a dark area. Simply count the flashes 1,7,2,9,4,6 for instance. This sequence indicates possible problems at codes 17, 29 and 46. Check the repair manual and check out the problems. If you do not have a manual I think one of us will be able to interpert.

You just might find your problem!!!

Good luck.

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I forgot about the key diagnostic which I read about a couple of years ago on 'Mini Mopar'. There is a diagnostic OB1 connector next to the SMEC. Anyway, I did the key diagnostic and have a code 23 which is not a code in the service manual. It skips from 22 to 24 in the manual. It is an air charge temperature sensor code which shouldn't prevent the car from starting in limp mode. Time to dig into the distributor. Weee!

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How about that! I did not know she was equipped with an OBD-1 connection. See, you learn something new everyday.

At any rate my manual indicates "Charge temperature sensor circuit" for code 23. The charge temperature sensor is located on the intake manifold and measures the temperature of the air-fuel mixture. The info is used by the SMEC to modify air-fuel mixture.

Any help?

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The wires that come from the Charge Air Temp Sensor are subject to some stress from the wieght of the sub harness, I've had them lose connection and result in a hard starting condition but never a no-start condition. If I remember correctly, the ECU reverts to full cold (rich) condition if a readable signal is not recieved from the CTS. The test for the CTS is to check the Ohms resistance but at a specified temp (80 degees f I think) How do you remember the deafult Hemi?? Where is Hemi in this thread anyway shocked.gif?

Alan

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Alan,

I tested the Air Charge sensor and it is within specs. If it was bad, the car would go into limp mode and would still start. I dropped the radiator to get to the distributor. It's a easy job. The cap looked ok but I replaced it anyway. The rotor looked worn so I replaced it also. The car still won't start so the Hall Effect Sensor(ignition pick-up)is next. It looks fine but looks can be deceiving. Does anyone know if it always sets a code 54 when it's bad?

Patrick

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Hello Patrick;

I quickly scanned the replies and did not notice if anyone had mentioned to you about Auto Shutdown (ASD) Relay. Perhaps because this is not on the 1990 16V cars. If it on your 1990 TC this may be helpful.

"When there is no ignition signal present with the key in the run position there is no need for fuel delivery. When this condition occurs, the auto shutdown relay interrupts power to the electrical fuel pump, fuel injectors and ignition coil." Reference 89 TC service manual Page14-15.

Could this relay be the cause of the problem?

Good luck finding a solution to the problem.

Cheers,

Bob Steele

TC America

Member

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Pat, does it even 'try' to fire like almost want to start, maybe a couple cylnders lighting off but not the others/ Does your tachometer 'bump' or budge a little bit off the bottom line when you crank it? Your starter motor and a decently charged battery turns the motor over at 175-200RPMS while cranking. I've seen bad HEP's that didn't throw a code 54. If the HEP is bad the tach WON'T budge while cranking.

THing is, if you have compression/fuel/spark a motor *will* run, you indicate you have all three yet your car *won't* start. So which is the missing piece to this puzzle? frown.gif Can I fly out to your place this weekend and try it for myself? wink.gif

ALan

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Alan,

Before I took the intake cam back one tooth, it would act like it wanted to start but not a start and stumble. When I'm cranking, the tack spins which is unusual. I'm getting spark at the plugs. I was reading at 'Allpar' that a bad MAP sensor will prevent starting. I'll unplug it tomorrow and give it a whirl. I also might neeed to advance the distributor to make up for the -9 degress intake cam change. I've owned and maintained Ferraris but this one has me guessing since it was so abrupt with no tell tale signs.

Patrick

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Hmm, I just reread the postxs, tell me again how you checked the cam timing and ignition timing, I lost yo a little bit on those parts. I don't know how to check igniiton timing if the motor won't start. How'd you do that? And tell me about the spark again, you checked it with the timing light or an extra plug laying on the valve cover or?? Making a list and checking it twice now. Musta missed something the first time thru...

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I checked the cam timing with the crank at TDC. The intake cam was one tooth advanced which according to Allpar is 9 degrees. I brought it back one tooth. I checked the spark at the coil, with a timing light during cranking and with the number one wire plug to ground. Does you tach spin when your cranking the engine?

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The tach doesn't 'spin' so much as just bump a little, the starter is only turning the motor about 200, thats the lowest increment on the tach so it just kicks off the bottom needle a bit. If there is NO MOVEMENT then I suspect the HEP switch. I don't have experience with the timing-light-on-the-wire spark test. WOuldn't the timing light pick up even the weakest signal that way? I mean enough to trigger the light but not enough to jump a spark at the plug gap. Remeber it takes substantially MORE spark energy to jump the gap in the pressure conditions inside a turning motor, thats why the freespark (grounded on valve cover for instance) has fooled me before.

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