powerslide1944 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I believe this photograph was taken in Paris, France between 1919 and 1924. Please identify the make and model of this landaulette. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Saxton Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Can only guess the main picture, but it may be 4 1/2 litre 6 cyl side valve Delage CO. The 3/4 elliptic rear springs are early, and rule out Hispano Suiza. The car upstairs on the left is obviously one of the larger Renaults.Ivan Saxton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintman Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Hi,Bit concerned about the main car being a Delage. Delage generally did not have fluted bonnets. Delage bonnets were mainly just curved. This has a distinct kink. My first guess would be WW1 era Mors, around the time Citroen was there. Talking of Citroen, the car up on the right is a Model C Citroen C3 Cabriolet, around 1923. The one up on the left does indeed look like a cca 1920/21 Renault. The car poking out bottom left looks sporty and appears to either have a dynastart or a supercharger.RegardsVintman (UK)www.svvs.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerslide1944 Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 The gentlemen sitting on the running board nearest the spare tire had the occupation of "chauffeur" in 1924; would later become a mechanic at Bugatti, in Molsheim; emigrate to the US and have a stellar career as a master mechanic working on cars at Indianapolis, Sebring, Watkins Glen, et al; Ferraris, Duesenbergs, Talbot-Lago, Maserati, Miller, am trying to trace his pre-mechanic days after WWI. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerslide1944 Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 Maybe a Hispano Suiza T32 with a Leon Dufor Landaulette body? Ivan, what is it about the 3/4 elliptic rear springs that makes you rule out a H S? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintman Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Need to look at the flute along the bonnet (hood) and on into a the kink in the radiator top (a la Packard, Minerva, Brasier etc). See attached detail from the photo. The bonnet would normally be by the car manufacturer, the body by an external company which can put it onto any car.RegardsVintman (UK)www.svvs.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spishak Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I think its an old model of ford or mercedes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Saxton Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Size of car, proportions, and familiarity with Stuart Middlehurst's Hispano Suizas over many years. Stuart only had three Hispano Suizas when I first met him. He lived just a couple of miles away from us. He had a 37.2 (or H6B), an Alfonso with the longer chassis and 3/4 elliptic rear springs, and a very early 3 litre 4cyl ohc Barcelona. The latter had been a superb, very original touring car when aquired by a hero of a certain vintage car club in Melbourne; during whose ownership the body vanished and the chassis was shortened and the car otherwise vandalised. Over the years Stuart gathered another Alfonso, a fair bit of the basics from which a third is now restored and in very appropriate use, from two sources enough parts so another 3 litre Barcelona has since been reconstructed, chassis of another 37.2 that needed a lot to restore it, and a running car that had lost its 8 litre engine and was powered by a Perkins diesel. (This is all pretty sketchy description.) A fourth Alfonso chassis frame has been built into a road car using almost entirely Hispano Suiza parts including a 12 litre V8 aero engine which Stuart owned. The Chassis was a short wheelbase variant which had semi-elliptic rear springs. This car has 37.2 axles and 4 wheel brakes, is well driven with enjoyment frequently; and as you would expect will do half an hour in 20 minutes. Another Barcelona chassis frame, this the large 5 litre car, also now carries an Hispano aero engine, but this the big 18 litre version. I understand it is driven with skill and enthusiasm in LA traffic by its owner in the media.Now I used to go and help Stuart when he was working on his cars. I also had the 37.2 in my garage for about a year when Stuart had an extended visit to Europe, and I was instructed to drive it as I wished. I actually did not enjoy driving it much, perhaps because you instinctively make comparisons with your own. Brakes aside, I found it nowhere near as nice to drive as my 1918 Mercer. So much preface to the answer of you question: The 3/4 elliptic rear springs would match a preWW1 Hispano, but not any of the 20's that I am aware of. And those 4 wheel brakes and Rudge Whitworth wheels probably dont match any Hispano that may have had 3/4 elliptic rear springs. Those rear springs are the one specific indicative feature we can be sure of.OK, it is a reasonably large car, probably French or nearby. It is definitely not Farman or Voisin, and I understand they only made one big vintage Hotchkiss, which was displayed as a chassis. I can assure you it is not Peugeot. (I have a 1923 6 cylinder, 6 litre cuff-valve Peugeot).The big 6 cyl Cottin et Desgouttes came later, and appearance is all wrong for that. Excelsior might approximate the appearance, but that had cantilever or 1/4 elliptic rear springs. Bozi's arguement is plausible, because the lighting might indicate a slight hump in the radiator, a vestige of the styling of the pre WW1 Mors. The only one I knew of out here would be a much smaller car than this. I have looked and looked at this photo, and I am not totally convinced there is a hump on the radiator. You would really need to be sure exactly the nature of the lighting to be certain. I did check with Mike Gausden who knewVic Butler well when he had the CO Delage, and his memory is that it had 3/4 elliptic rear springs. If you compare the relative height of the radiator and headlights with Bozi's Mors, I dont think they match. I don't claim to be right, but that is the basis of my guesswork.Ivan Saxton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintman Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Hi Ivan,I am not necessarily a protagonist for it being a Mors, merely a doubter on Delage and Hispano because both had similar curved rad tops. I have enlarged and darkened thebonnet/rad area to take out light splash but the kink remains. It is also very noticeable on the bonnet horizontal chrome strip, widescreen end, where it also has a matching kink. As an aside, there seems to be an interesting guard handle by the spare wheel which seemingly directs the spare into the well. Perhaps somebody recognises this feature?? Vintman (UK)www.svvs.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintman Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Correction: It is also very noticeable on the bonnet VERTICAL chrome strip, widescreen end, where it also has a matching kink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerslide1944 Posted January 31, 2009 Author Share Posted January 31, 2009 Hi Vintman: The character line that runs the length of the hood is not unlike some of the Packards, however the car doesn't seem to have the traditional "proportions" that you usually identify with Packards. The spare tire wheel well seems to rule out Minerva's of this period. In post WWI France it was not "politically correct" to be seen operating a vehicle from Germany, so I have ruled out a car having a German pedigree. Am I assuming too much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now