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HarryJ

Cash for clunkers.......

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Folks, In a way I oppose the cash for clunkers program as it is the Government stepping in and interfereing with private enterprise. However, an over supply of automobiles on the market (both new and used) is the primary root of Detroit's problem. The engineers and managers at the U.S. automakers have listened to the market over the last couple of decades and given the consumer a far more dependable product which lasts more miles and years than the products of the past. I feel Japan made it's initial inroads into our market by producing a far more dependable car than was coming from Detroit. About seven or eight years ago a statistic jumped out of a news cast and caught my attention. That statistic was..........there were more licensed automobiles than there were licensed drivers in the U.S.! Yes , I am opposed to scrapping out Locomobiles, Simplexs,etc. But '97 Chevrolets? In the late 20's there were drives to bring in used cars and scrap them. I have seen pictures of piles of cars piled up and set ablaze in that era. This was done to spur car sales. We have too many cars! I support scrapping out cars; however, I also support the private enterprise system. The automobile manufacturers are going to have to learn to navigate the market given the situation of today.

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About a week ago in Oakland, CA, protesters were burning cars. On the next riot we could have cops stay home. Cars get burned, citizens buy new cars, automobile industry thrives - problem solved.

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HarryJ:

while I fully understand your standpoint and have no particular affinity for 97 chevrolets, I would have to oppose any type of guv'mint sponsored car scrappage program and for one very simple reason. Harry what leads you to believe that the guv'mint will stop at 97 chebbies. Some bright clown will reword the bill or transpose numbers to include 79 cars period. If we are not carefull these clowns will also include any car sitting next to a 97/79 chebbie and then the bill will be amended to include any of those year/types of cars. Once these guys get their foot in the door they don't stop until they have gone thru the kitchen cupboards, the cellar, and the attic ferreting out anything that their little pea brains and construe to meet what they think the law is. It's analogeous to the NRA and the gun control laws. Once they outlaw Uzis and Kalishnakovs it's amazing how quickly your little 1 shot 22

becomes associated with the automatic death sprayers.

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And so far these scrap programs don't require proof of ownership. So don't go to work and leave your old car outside, or we'll see a notice like the one for Model T.

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I thought this topic would get a quick response! For the American automobile companies to survive they need a market. There are too many daily drivers. We need to learn to recycle automobiles.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HarryJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought this topic would get a quick response! For the American automobile companies to survive they need a market. There are too many daily drivers. We need to learn to recycle automobiles. </div></div>

I own four cars - a 2007, a 2003, a 1998, and a 1964. I drive them all. Which one do you think I should turn in?

Recycling cars is not the answer to Detroit's problems. Detroit needs to build quality cars that people want to buy.

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My daily driver is a 1931 Dodge coupe. Uh oh....it's old. I'd better just crush it so I can spend $30,000 for a newer piece of crap that won't last five years.

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I believe France has a similar "cars for cash" recycling program. I wonder what the collectors there think of it.

Phil Jamison

PA

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Bill........Detroit does build quality cars!(Look in your driveway!) By the way.......how many cars are in your driveway and how many licensed drivers live on the prop?

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HarryJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bill........Detroit does build quality cars!(Look in your driveway!) By the way.......how many cars are in your driveway and how many licensed drivers live on the prop? </div></div>

Four cars.

Two drivers.

eek.gif

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Here in CA, the government already wastes our tax dollars scrapping cars. Rather than letting us keep more of our money so we could buy a new one. Cash for clunkers is another bad idea we can't afford.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dean_H.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here in CA, the government already wastes our tax dollars scrapping cars. Rather than letting us keep more of our money so we could buy a new one. Cash for clunkers is another bad idea we can't afford. </div></div>Especially when proof of ownership is NOT required to collect the cash.

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Dean, as I stated in the original post.....the government needs to stay out of the private sector! Bill you have made a couple of excellent points, and Keiser 31, it's great you are keeping a piece of history on the road! For America's automobile manufacturers to survive they need to learn to navigate the market conditions of today. The government needs to stay out of the way. The government might step in if a manufacturer outside the U.S. uses unfair trade practices in their dealings with the U.S. public or tries to market a product that is harmful to the health or safety of U.S. citizens. The point again is.........some cars need to be restored/preserved/archived for future generations; not merely the physical history but for the engineering/manufacturing/marketing knowledge that needs to preserved. We need to be able to produce and consume recyclable transportation.......yes, some of the steel atoms (alright, iron "Fe") in your 2008 Buick may have been in a 1906 Stanley.

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Just a thought, but I wonder if we could look at this from a little bit different perspective. Lets just set our own love of the american automobile aside for a minute and take a look at the "big picture". While we are treating our junk yards like national shrines the rest of the world is harvesting these resources to build new cities and yes military strength. I have witnessed first hand in South America the harvesting of metal going to China by the ship load... The China government knows the importance of the resource and is using it to fuel their most recent economic surge. So I wonder if we as knowledgeable care takers of these rusty resources can join hands with the government and work out our differences for the greater good of the country. While I do know that larger cities have metal recycling plants I wonder about the thousands of communities that just park their old clunkers behind the barn and let it rust to the ground. Sorry but this is not using our resources to our best advantage. This is perhaps a bad example but if we would have take some lessons from Japan and started to make a more fuel efficient and a more quality car in the early 90's things might be different now. Sooo maybe we should learn from countries like China and harvest those cars that we all know are way beyond restoration candidates. Just a thought !!!

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I know this is "blasphemy" but I have no issue with crushing un-used, abandoned, un-usable vehicles -- as long as the owner chooses to give it up to a junkyard or crusher, or the junkyard decided that a vehicle is better suited for recycling than for parts - then so be it.

If however, someone owns a car and stores it according to local laws then there is absolutely zero reason for the government to intervene.

As to "pollution credits". Cars sitting in junkyards are not polluting. Therefore crushing them and passing on pollution credits does not reduce pollution. (DUH)

On the argument that crushing older vehicles will promote the purchase of new vehicles. Here is a scenario: Person owns a $1500 car that he drives to work, maintains, insures, and it's paid for. Now he gives it up to the government and takes the $1500. He now must buy a more expensive car. He doesnt have cash to do that so he has to use the $1500 as downpayment on a $5000 car - so $3500 + Tax + Registration @ 12% interest for 24 months - payments would be $150.00. His insurance must go up because he's now borrowing money against it. So add another $50 a month. $200 a month, <span style="font-weight: bold">$2400</span> a year MORE. Assuming he makes $10 an hour that's $20,000 a year. Less taxes, SS, etc. He now takes home $15000. $2400 for a vehicle is 15% of his take home pay.

THIS MAKES NO SENSE.

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I'm sure that we all realize that in the end there would really not be a need for this site/organization (AACA) if there was not a collection of individuals with a passion for the multitudes and variations of automobiles that had been abandoned in one form or another (Sold/Junked) through out its history.

I feel that there is a fundamental flaw that has been in motion and although I might have some hope that there will be some realignment and polarization with the masses attempting to manage this country, I still will remain a bit pessimistic.

There are those individuals that are not directly associated with this particular hobby/industry and this allows them to make casual remarks/decisions without understanding the impacts or those remarks/decisions. Those persons with the passion for the history, education and preservation of the automobile are not all aligned to the Model T, their passions are wrapped around the entire eclectic models produced over the many years the automobile had been produced. There has been numerous businesses and organization that have been developed over these same years that cater to these passions that have been ignited.

What is the correct Auto Industry business plan/model today? There is no good answer; every business plan/model has a market saturation point. What role does or should the government have in this industry? The short answer should be none; the reality is that we hold the industry responsible for much more than mass transportation options/solutions, it is still in the end nationally one of the larger job bases. And just to get this on the table, there is without question also a manufacturing capacity consideration from a national security point of view. We collectively, from a “Global Partner Position”, have been pretty willing to forgo any thought or consideration for long term stability for short term hot button reactionary goals/objectives without care.

Bottom line, there are many viewpoints to consider… The government though should not be telling you that your ’73 Gremlin X with Levi interior, or your ’56 Dodge La Femme, or <“Your Car Goes Here”> needs to head to the scrap yard. For those of you that cater to any portion of this passion, industry, livelihood, there needs to be a continued, consistent and clear path of communication to your governmental leaders.

Just please do not knock on my door and ask me to turn in any of my cars for the better of the country. And, just for the record there is one driver in my house and there are 6 cars of which there are 3 (soon to be 4) registered for the road. Ok, going to stop now because I am just going to dig a hole for myself here… Apologies for the passionate rambling…

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