Ethynol fuel

[Richard Lichtfel 3]

Help. I have a 1970 440 Challenger that I like to cruise with but it does not run on gas with ethynol in it. There are a few gas stations around here that have 92 octane fuel without ethynol and with that I use an octane booster that seems to work good. However regular gasoline is not available in many ares and last summer we were on a trip and I had to get ethynol gas and I barely mad it home. Does anyone have some advice for me on how to solve this?

Thank you.

[Mark Shaw 1,715]

Get a pony tank and get all you can when the gas is real gas. Otherwise, you may have to de-tune to run the new stuff....

[joe_padavano 1,904]

How exactly does it "not run"? What are the symptoms? The ethanol leans out the mixture. A simple jetting change might solve the problem.

[R W Burgess 275]

I had the same problem this past fall in South Carolina on the Founders Tour. I drove our fuel injected 327 Corvette all week, but as the week wore on, it's was acting a little funny. Accelerator response was very slow, dead spots all through the rpm range. Finally on the fourth day, I had to drive it on the interstate to "clean" it out. The car was "dead" on restarting during the day too. On the interstate, it was missing, backfiring, and generally running terrible. I finally put it in the trailer and rode with a friend on Friday. On arriving back home in Virginia, I refilled with 93 octane, and the car has run fine every since.

Wayne

[joe_padavano 1,904]

Well, here in NoVA, we've had 10% ethanol for year and years. Never had a problem in any of my older cars. I'm wondering if this was just a case of a bad tank - too much water in the fuel, perhaps?

The only long-term problems have been deterioration of the plastic carb floats. I've taken to just replacing them with each carb rebuild.

[Richard Lichtfel 3]

My gas tank and fuel system is in good shape. My Challenger started missing soon after putting the ethynol gas in it. It would die when I stopped and was sometimes hard starting.I finally made it home and put 92 octane without ethynol in with my octane booster and ran it through. When the ethynol was gone it ran good and still runs good. I wanted to go on the muscle car tour last year but I was afraid I would again end up with only ethynol fuel. I was wondering if anyone else has had this trouble and what they did to remedy it. Are there any additives I could add? I use Amsoil octane booster and I talked to their tech. department but they didn't know of anything I could use.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[bossmustang 1]

Last summer, a friend of mine who has a lawn mowing service, was talking about how he thought the ethynol fuel was ruining his equipment. He tried several things and had the most success with adding StaBil to the mixture. It seems it stopped the corrosive action of the fuel.

We have a '70 BOSS 302 and a '78 Mustang II that I always added StaBil to anyway, so I'm glad that it helps. I put 93 octane Sunoco and 104 octane booster in the BOSS with 10.5 compression and 89 in the V8 Mustang II. I also pushed back the timing on the BOSS.

Hope this helps.

Jim

[joe_padavano 1,904]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Green Dragon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My Challenger started missing soon after putting the ethynol gas in it. </div></div>

Are we talking about a single tankful, or repeated times from multiple sources? Keep in mind that at any given time a gas station's underground tanks can become contaminated with water from a heavy rain or sediment. The fact that filling up from a different source fixed the problem may be due to the ethanol or it may simply be due to the fact that you finally ran all the water out of the tank.

I don't know about where you live, but in most metropolitan areas of the US, you <span style="text-decoration: underline">CAN'T</span> buy gasoline that doesn't have 10% ethanol. I personally have not had a problem with the 10% mix.

[Bluesky636 0]

E10 gas should not require any jetting changes or have a siginificant impact on performance. Completely different animal from E85 which none of our collector cars will run on without significant modifications.

Some thoughts:

1. Buy the highest octane you can in your normal travel area. Try to buy it at the same or couple of the same stations to avoid variation.

2. Give the car a good tuneup. You didn't say if you had a single 4 bbl or 3 2s. I have no experience with the 440, but it does not impress me as a picky engine, at least compared to the 426 Hemi.

3. After tuning it up, you may find that variations in gas may require a backing off of the initial timing. I would expect this to be temporary.

I agree with Joe. It sounds like a problem with contaminated gas. I use 93 octane E10 from Exxon, Sunoco, or BP in my 390 and have never had a problem.

[Bluesky636 0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had the same problem this past fall in South Carolina on the Founders Tour. I drove our fuel injected 327 Corvette all week, but as the week wore on, it's was acting a little funny. Accelerator response was very slow, dead spots all through the rpm range. Finally on the fourth day, I had to drive it on the interstate to "clean" it out. The car was "dead" on restarting during the day too. On the interstate, it was missing, backfiring, and generally running terrible. I finally put it in the trailer and rode with a friend on Friday. On arriving back home in Virginia, I refilled with 93 octane, and the car has run fine every since.

Wayne </div></div>

Should have added a little 'shine to the gas. That would have cleaned it right out.

[Dave@Moon 13]

There are whole states that have had <span style="text-decoration: underline">nothing but 10% ethanol</span> gas for going on <span style="text-decoration: underline">three decades</span> now. If these types of problems were strictly the fuel's fault there would be large areas in the U.S. where high compression or carbureted engines would be impossible to own.

Most likely if a single load of ethanol fuel causes problems, the cause is contamination and/or shellac in the fuel system. Ethanol will pull into solution a lot of compounds that gasoline will leave alone, causing all sorts of problems that go away with the elimination of the ethanol.

You could be lucky. If this was a one-time thing and the next load of 10% ethanol causes no problems then it may be that there was trapped water in the system somewhere that the ethanol pulled into solution. I'd check this first before I did anything.

A thorough cleaning for the fuel system, from gas cap to intake manifold, should eliminate all problems. Be sure to keep a few extra fuel filters on hand afterwards, unless you go with a system replacement (which may not be much more expensive for a popular car like this).

Some early 1990s gas tank coatings do dissolve in ethanol, with catastrophic results for the fuel lines and jets. However if this was happening a load of non-ethanol fuel would not be enough to fix it.

Good luck!

[DizzyDale 0]

Dear Wayne,Sounds like that Vette of yours is a REAL pain.I COULD take it off your hands,think of the load off your mind,i'd bet you would even sleep better.Please advise.diz

[Earl B. 16]

Wayne, as nice as Dizzy's being, I think you should pay him for taking the car also, since he's lifting such a large burden from your shoulders....B

[R W Burgess 275]

Jeff, Diz doesn't like Corvettes. He had a beautiful roadster and someone told me he sold it.

No, I guess mind is a keeper.

As far as the gasoline problem, I think I probably got a load of water, although other cars on the tour had gas problems too, using different stations than the one I was using.

The Northern Neck does not have oxygenated fuels, although most can be up to 10% ethanol, as stated on the tanks. We have one station nearby that is ethanol free in all grades. Friends tell me they get the best mileage on this gasoline, not a name brand, by the way.

The Northern Neck of Virginia, the "Land of Pleasant Living" and good running automobiles!

Wayne

[joe_padavano 1,904]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill_Haegele</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

1. Buy the highest octane you can in your normal travel area.

</div></div>

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this one. You should buy the LOWEST octane that doesn't knock in your particular car (late models with knock sensors are not included in that statement). If the car runs fine on regular, there is no reason to spend more money for premium. The oil companies have tried to increase profits by marketing their premium as something special, with special additives. If you need the additives, buy a bottle and put it in yourself.

[keiser31 5,855]

Green Dragon....you may have gotten a load of watered down fuel. The same thing happened to my girlfriend's car on a trip to the coast. After a full tank of gas the car started running worse and worse. Finally got to the coast and it was barely running under it's own power. Got to a fuel station and refilled with the "same" brand of fuel. The car started to run better and better with each mile. Found out that there was water in the fuel, locally. A bunch of folks told me the same story from the same fuel station, but the local owner denied the water problem. We changed stations and all runs good, now!

[ted sweet 240]

i also have a 440 challenger, has no problems with 10% ethanol.

[Richard Lichtfel 3]

This was not just a one time thing. I live in Wisconsin and a couple of years ago I got gas in Ill. and didn't pay attention to the ethynol sign but filled with 92 octane. That was the first time, I thought too that I got a bad tank of gas because it missed and died. I finally made it home and took the car to my mechanic, he said it was the ethynol and told me to top the tank off with regular 92 octane and run it through. It ran good after that. I then started using Amsoil octane booster and that seemed to help a little but no cigar. I have had this happen to me three other times when I had to use ethynol fuel. I put Sta-bil in my gas tanks when I put the cars away for winter and will try that this Spring. Thank you for the advice.

Last year I got 10 gallons of 110 octane leaded gas and put in the Challenger and WOW what performance, the exhaust even smelled good. Those were the days.

[nearchoclatetown 312]

Keiser31, I've heard a few stories what is happening here. As we know ethanol absorbs water to a certain percentage. So some sleezebag gas stations add water knowing it will be held by the ethanol. Just what I've read. It was probably more likely to happen when gas was $4.00 a gallon.

[keiser31 5,855]

Sounds exactly like what this certain station owner might do. I know that I wasn't the only one who got the watered down gas. One guy made it about 200 feet from the station before his car crapped out!

[Dave@Moon 13]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Last year I got 10 gallons of 110 octane leaded gas and put in the Challenger and WOW what performance, the exhaust even smelled good. Those were the days.</div></div>

Joe is absolutely right about engines not being able to use extra octane. An octane rating is simply a measure of how SLOW the fuel burns in the cylinder, the higher the number the SLOWER it burns. It has no relation to the power/heat content contained in fuel whatsoever.

If a fuel burns more slowly it can be compressed further before ignition, which allows the engine to be more efficient at extracting the fuel's energy. Once you design a fuel for that speed of combustion, that efficientcy is fixed. Putting even slower burning fuel in doesn't change the engine's componetry one bit.

In fact ethanol actually raises octane ratings, while lowering heat content and (ultimately but slightly) gas mileage and performance potential.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I live in Wisconsin and a couple of years ago I got gas in Ill. and didn't pay attention to the ethynol sign but filled with 92 octane.</div></div>

BTW, more than 50% of the fuel sold in Wisconsin is E10 (10% ethanol). It would be very hard to avoid it completely.

[R W Burgess 275]

Dave, I have noticed that the gas station pump's signage here in Virginia proclaim, "<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">May</span></span> Contain Up To 10% Ethanol"!

It's my understanding that the higher grades of gasoline actually contain less than 10% ethanol, which would be an advantage if said vehicle were to be stored at long lengths of time (less chance of absorbing more moisture?).

Wayne

[Bluesky636 0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joe_padavano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill_Haegele</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

1. Buy the highest octane you can in your normal travel area.

</div></div>

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this one. You should buy the LOWEST octane that doesn't knock in your particular car (late models with knock sensors are not included in that statement). If the car runs fine on regular, there is no reason to spend more money for premium. The oil companies have tried to increase profits by marketing their premium as something special, with special additives. If you need the additives, buy a bottle and put it in yourself. </div></div>

You are correct, but I based my advice on the assumption that the OP preferred higher octane gas and had tuned his car for that gas. Use of a lower octance was never mentioned as far as I can recall.